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    One of the hardest things for me is initiating. Emails aren't so bad but everything else is like hell. You'd think that after all these years I'd get good at it but no. I can't pick up the phone to SAVE MY LIFE and asking people to do stuff is just too hard. Part of it is the fact that it takes so much of my energy to do it that any rejection is like a huge blow. Which I realize is ridiculous. Silly cause I know it's nothing personal. People are busy, they have pre-existing plans, it's nothing against me. I know who likes me and who doesn't. That's not it. It's just that I guess deep down, I feel like if someone else really wants to be friends, they'll initiate. I have this one SEE friend who's been asking me to do stuff and I love it. I so appreciate her. But why, why is it so much work? Furthermore, it's not like my ESE husband is much better! You'd think he'd be good at that. Actually he's great at handling the emotional atmosphere in the moment but he's horrible at planning things with other couples and stuff like that. So we're screwed.
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    Initiating for me generally comes down to the fact I just don't want to most of the time. I mean...I could..I'm not afraid...I just don't think about it. It's off my radar of things to do. So...yeah....

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Initiating for me generally comes down to the fact I just don't want to most of the time. I mean...I could..I'm not afraid...I just don't think about it. It's off my radar of things to do. So...yeah....
    It used to be off my radar too. For like most of my life. But now I just feel more like I want friends. I mean, more than just seeing them whenever I happen to see them. I dunno why. I'm annoyed with this desire!
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    One of the hardest things for me is initiating. Emails aren't so bad but everything else is like hell. You'd think that after all these years I'd get good at it but no. I can't pick up the phone to SAVE MY LIFE and asking people to do stuff is just too hard. Part of it is the fact that it takes so much of my energy to do it that any rejection is like a huge blow. Which I realize is ridiculous. Silly cause I know it's nothing personal. People are busy, they have pre-existing plans, it's nothing against me. I know who likes me and who doesn't. That's not it. It's just that I guess deep down, I feel like if someone else really wants to be friends, they'll initiate. I have this one SEE friend who's been asking me to do stuff and I love it. I so appreciate her. But why, why is it so much work? Furthermore, it's not like my ESE husband is much better! You'd think he'd be good at that. Actually he's great at handling the emotional atmosphere in the moment but he's horrible at planning things with other couples and stuff like that. So we're screwed.
    I think ESE is the best at it.
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    1)
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    2)
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    Quote Originally Posted by 07490 View Post
    I think ESE is the best at it.
    not mine. cause he's a 6 and fearful of rejection

    seriously though. Let's see... I think SEE and SLE are good at initiating. ESI is okay too. LSE might be good but I'm not close enough to any to really know for sure. SEIs are horrible, EIIs aren't great. IEIs, some are good, some not so good. ILEs and LIEs are both pretty good I think. IEEs too.
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    If you find it easier to do by email then why not? It should be less stress for you as it would allow you the time to think how and what to write. Just don't press cancel before you send no matter how tempted you would be .

    I try to maintain constant contact with all my friends. And I try to keep certain minimal contact with aquaintances I like, but i'm not bothered if I don't find the time for them. And I'm not even sure why, basically if it is off your radar then it is very much always on my radar. I always feel the need to maintain contact and to offer something so we can meet up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    If you find it easier to do by email then why not? It should be less stress for you as it would allow you the time to think how and what to write. Just don't press cancel before you send no matter how tempted you would be .

    I try to maintain constant contact with all my friends. And I try to keep certain minimal contact with aquaintances I like, but i'm not bothered if I don't find the time for them. And I'm not even sure why, basically if it is off your radar then it is very much always on my radar. I always feel the need to maintain contact and to offer something so we can meet up.
    that's cool. those are the kinds of friends I need. I guess one of the defining issues here is that I'm older and all of my friends have children (as do I) and husbands or wives and it's freakin' hard to manage everyone's schedules and find time to hang out with friends. I mean, it's next to impossible. and it's ISOLATING. If it weren't for the internet, I'd go for days without talking to another adult besides my husband. I mean, things are BAD that way. It's really unhealthy. I think a lot of people in my stage of life are in a similar situation. It can only go on for so long before you start to feel like a non-person or something. don't get me wrong--I love my own company. Hey I'm an introvert. I have about a million things I like to do by myself but after awhile it seems kind of pointless.
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    I can initiate just fine, but only feel comfortable with it is I'm accustomed to the method and reason of initiation. I'm uncomfortable with phones; I'd rather write a letter. (Maybe 'cause I'm visual, not auditory.)

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    I used to hate talking to people on the phone but now I like it.

    I've learned over the years that everything I was afraid to do, are things that I actually enjoy and am good at. It's bizarre. And whenever I took the easy way out and gave up - it was things that really weren't in touch with my true nature. It was what I thought I wanted, but it wasn't true.

    There are no psychological feel goods to overcome this. No 'talk therapy' in the world. No mentally psyching yourself up enough- you kinda, (and I know this cliche is so annoying) have to 'just do it.' Fake it till you make it. Just keep doing it and doing it and how can it not get a little easier each time?

    Also surrounding yourself with more people, and less internet people (I know I'm a hypocrite with this) will also naturally bring up your assertive skills. But they have to be the right kind of people that see your best qualities.

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    Just think about it this way: Why would this weakness bother you so much if it's not something that you truly wanted to overcome (and will.)

    Sometimes we have flaws that we accept and don't worry about. But the flaws in us that bother us, I think that's our better half trying to say 'Come on you can do this.'

    You *know* you're asking your body and your mind and your soul to do something that is well within your reach. You're not asking to make pigs fly, or to wave your hands and make everything okay -- or to win a billion dollars instantly. You're simply asking to take a little more initiative. And that's something you can have control over, you realize that it's just a small choice away. And every time you don't just kinda - take that leap, you get mad at yourself.

    Like Esther Hicks says, (and I agree) all depression is, is when we don't let ourselves get caught up with us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ssmall View Post
    If you find it easier to do by email then why not? It should be less stress for you as it would allow you the time to think how and what to write. Just don't press cancel before you send no matter how tempted you would be .

    I try to maintain constant contact with all my friends. And I try to keep certain minimal contact with aquaintances I like, but i'm not bothered if I don't find the time for them. And I'm not even sure why, basically if it is off your radar then it is very much always on my radar. I always feel the need to maintain contact and to offer something so we can meet up.
    True wise words. What would David Bowie say, "We can be ENFp's, just for one day".

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    Something I noticed in New York was that all of the introverts were intensely indecisive and unwilling to make decisions/take action. When Steve wasn't there, I ended up having to put my foot down and make decisions and when the two of us were together, we sort of tag teamed. Granted, neither Steve nor I really wanted to be the decision makers either, but faced with a predominantly IP clusterfuck, he and/or I sort of took control a lot.

    With the exceptions of phones (I don't like being unable to react to people when talking) I don't have problems being an initiator. Nothing about it really bothers me. I just kind of do it and roll with the outcome. There just...isn't a reason to be worried about it?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    There are no psychological feel goods to overcome this. No 'talk therapy' in the world. No mentally psyching yourself up enough- you kinda, (and I know this cliche is so annoying) have to 'just do it.' Fake it till you make it. Just keep doing it and doing it and how can it not get a little easier each time?
    I agree with this. I think you have to pysch yourself down, redbaron. Stop thinking about possible outcomes and rejection and whatnot. Just get a bunch of random people's names together, and keep ringing until someone agrees. Erm .. I wouldn't advise getting too random though. :0 If you think in terms of it being just about the simple act of ringing and asking, then it'll be a lot easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    I agree with this. I think you have to pysch yourself down, redbaron. Stop thinking about possible outcomes and rejection and whatnot. Just get a bunch of random people's names together, and keep ringing until someone agrees. Erm .. I wouldn't advise getting too random though. :0 If you think in terms of it being just about the simple act of ringing and asking, then it'll be a lot easier.
    Sometimes I do this thru text messaging. Send out an invitation to a bunch of people and hit the 'send all' button. It works Then, of course, you're out of luck if they all want to do something at the same time.

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    I'm well aware that it can sting if somebody thinks they're better than you and doesn't want to talk. That gets annoying. *rolls eyes*

    But just fuck em if they don't wanna be your friend, as there are plenty of people that do want to hear what you say. =D

    Sometimes a few of my (well, now ex)-friends will get suspicious if I try to have a conversation. Because it doesn't seem like I'm in my 'natural element.' They try to read too much into me and thinking that I suffer from tremendously low self-esteem and I'm trying to act as if I need them to function. How arrogant on their part. Nothing could be further from the truth, I just thought it be nice to have somebody to talk to. =/ People are weird and think that everything needs to be a self-help manual.

    So I agree, psych yourself down. If you are naturally passive you might kinda think that you can always wait for somebody else to take initiative (and that works with extroverts with hero complexes, but what about the dark side to that?), as that also means you will inevitably attract bad people who try to take advantage of your complacency. (like bullies) So everybody needs to 'find their balls' so to speak.

    You didn't need our help with this I don't think. You always just needed you. You always had the answer you just a bit worried cause you didn't let yourself get caught up with you. =D

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    I bet that if all the world population massively moved near the tropics there would no more be problems like these.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I'm obviously not saying, "sit around and do nothing" but rather that how a person does things, the approach they take, needs to be personal. Following some pattern and trying to be something you're not, will just wear you down, maybe not at first, but over time it will. "Fake it until you make it" is bullshit. Finding a way to reach your goals that is a natural extension of yourself, is not. If a person wants something enough, they'll find a way to get it, and in the case of spending more time with friends, stepping outside your comfort zone and initiating might be the answer, or it might take so much out of you that you end up dreading it. There's no universal approach.
    yes, I appreciate what everyone's saying here. Sometimes I think "just do it" is the way I should be thinking. But it's not like I refuse to call anyone up. What prompted my initial post was this email I sent a friend, inviting her and her husband over to watch a movie this weekend and getting the reply: "that sounds like fun but we're busy every single weekend night until April" which was totally disconcerting. I mean, honestly?? Do I have to schedule something with you people MONTHS in advance? There's no way. I mean sure, a couple of those weekends we're busy too and I didn't necessarily expect them to be free THIS weekend but responses like that make me never want to ask again. And then I'm also dissuaded from asking others because if I find out that EVERYone's busy every weekend night for the next few months, I'm REALLY going to feel like a loser. Now I've had good luck with this woman before with scheduling things during the week like getting together for coffee. But like Diana said, it takes a lot out of me to ask AND if I get a negative response after putting myself out there, I'm less likely to ask again for a really long time. I'm not sure I can just make the decision to change that about myself.

    (and part of my frustration at the moment, no doubt, has to do with this neverending winter we're having. grrrr.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yes, I appreciate what everyone's saying here. Sometimes I think "just do it" is the way I should be thinking. But it's not like I refuse to call anyone up. What prompted my initial post was this email I sent a friend, inviting her and her husband over to watch a movie this weekend and getting the reply: "that sounds like fun but we're busy every single weekend night until April" which was totally disconcerting. I mean, honestly?? Do I have to schedule something with you people MONTHS in advance? There's no way. I mean sure, a couple of those weekends we're busy too and I didn't necessarily expect them to be free THIS weekend but responses like that make me never want to ask again. And then I'm also dissuaded from asking others because if I find out that EVERYone's busy every weekend night for the next few months, I'm REALLY going to feel like a loser. Now I've had good luck with this woman before with scheduling things during the week like getting together for coffee. But like Diana said, it takes a lot out of me to ask AND if I get a negative response after putting myself out there, I'm less likely to ask again for a really long time. I'm not sure I can just make the decision to change that about myself.

    (and part of my frustration at the moment, no doubt, has to do with this neverending winter we're having. grrrr.)
    A few people continuously give me that response and I've just given up on them. They'll call me all the time but when I ask them to do something, I get that same line. There's only so much you can do. I've given up asking. That's probobly not what you wanted to hear But i'm under the impression that once you've made the first move, if they care enough once they're free, they'll take you up on that offer sometime.

    Yeah, I feel like this is the longest winter of my entire life.

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    Well I'm sorry if I sound too bitchy/bossy/self-help booky myself.

    If it was me explaining a problem or issue I had, she'd be saying the same thing. *shrug* It's human nature. It's easy to give advice, it's hard/annoying to take it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Well I'm sorry if I sound too bitchy/bossy/self-help booky myself.

    If it was me explaining a problem or issue I had, she'd be saying the same thing. *shrug* It's human nature. It's easy to give advice, it's hard/annoying to take it.
    no I think your advice is good. I'm responsible for my own social life. So if it's not what I want, I need to do something to change that. I just don't know if the potential benefits are worth the cost. I guess I have to decide how bad I want it.
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    Doesn't it make more sense to work within your own self and temperament to acquire what you want? Why should everyone have to become fake, pretend to be social extroverts when they're not?
    Yes. Within reason. But life requires us to at least try to project ourselves a *little*. I suppose you don't have to, if you can find somebody willing to take care of your every whim for you. Because if you don't learn to project yourself and be somewhat extroverted - that's what you'd of course have to rely on. The things you want in life, even to 'better yourself' require that you deal with other people in order to get those things. You can't get anything stable/secure without the help of others, which is why- it is an absolute requirement that everybody learns to be at least a little extrovert, even natural introverts like myself.

    And I don't think that's really right for people, to stay 110% introverted. Sure it can work, but look how dependent you are on others. It can help you if you just want to quitely write to yourself in your room all day. (I'm not making fun of this, I actually wouldn't mind such a lifestyle....) But again lol you'd have to seek out a publisher and talk to SOMEBODY if you want to make money or friends.

    I'm not saying she should be the life of the party, or that's what she's even meant to do. I'm simply saying (and this is clearly bothering *her* that she's doing this, I don't think she's simply mad at social prejudices against introverts) that she could probably try a little more to be extroverted- as it seems from her post that's what she wants to do. If it doesn't bother her then I guess it's no big deal, but why tell about us anyway if that were true?

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    Extrovert doesn't necessarily mean wanting or thriving in social situations, technically all it means is focusing outside of yourself, to get 'out of yourself' and to focus on another person to not be so self-conscious. It's paying attention and giving focus to, things that are outside one's self. To be giving, etc. In certain circumstances (like a school setting) an introverted person would probably socialize better... because it's more selfish, internally based and they could discuss what is more easily on their own minds. But a situation where you need to be selfless socially, introverts have a hard time as it's not about selfishly improving oneself- it's about focusing on others.

    So it sounds like she wants to 'get outta herself' more, which is what is required to feel happiness. (And who doesn't want to be happy? Jeesh) Which is why extroverted people *are* actually happier than those that stay introverted. Being introverted gets you a lot of things too. But not joy or that light feeling from getting out of your own mind for awhile.

    Natural introverts don't get energy like extroverts do, we get it by getting energy from ourselves. But everybody needs to project their will in *some* ways to external objects (Other people, events, tools etc.) or they'd be absolutely miserable.

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    What prompted my initial post was this email I sent a friend, inviting her and her husband over to watch a movie this weekend and getting the reply: "that sounds like fun but we're busy every single weekend night until April"
    heh I have friends like that. I just penciled them in for going shopping at the end of March.

    Sometimes it bugs me b/c I like spontaneity - just waiting til Friday to see what I feel like doing. It just gets harder and harder as people accumulate spouses, kids, houses... jobs that require you to be on time... And it really sucks when the weather gets pretty and you wake up feeling all nice and just want to call someone and go to the park and then they tell you they're building a retaining wall in their backyard and tiling their shower. You could always bring over a pitcher of mojitos and watch them, but that probably wouldn't go over very well...
    IEE

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    That's why people like extroverts more. They're simply easier to like and not as selfish. Until introverts behave extroverted in some small ways- they'd probably always remain lonely.

    Introversion is great for self-improvement. But people don't tend to like and enjoy you just because you improved yourself so well. They only tend to like you if you also like them, if you can give yourself up and just focus on what you like about another person... that is why extroverts do so better socially.

    An introvert's actions are too deliberate and controlled, that when they do perform an action- it's appears to other people, that they're only doing it for themselves.

    So what am I a self-hating introvert? Heavens no. A person who can't learn to be a *little* introverted are just as annoying as those that can't learn to be a little more extroverted. Because they get all this hyper mania and satisfaction from people but haven't learned a single thing to help themselves or to be independent. They're too scatter-brained and not specialized enough.

    I just know how the world works in many ways and I realize that as long as I stay introverted, I'm going to have a hard time with other people no matter how caring or loveable or capable I know I am. I'm going to always have to rely on the sympathy and support of extroverts until I kinda learn to be more extroverted myself.

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    yep I totally hear what you're saying B&D. I used to be MUCH more of an introvert when I was younger. I would say that over the past 3 years or so I've opened up quite a bit and have reaped the rewards of that. I agree with what you're saying and although I do like myself for the most part, there's definitely something inside of me that longs to be more extraverted, more breezy, less deliberate and focused on myself. So... I'm trying but I guess it's just hard to get shot down. I suppose I take myself too seriously. I wish I were more resilient. I take things too much to heart even when I know in my head that it's nothing personal. The very fact that it's hard for me, gives weight to every attempt I make to get closer to someone. And thus the stakes are higher. Maybe by doing it more I'll get over some of that, who knows.

    eta: the easiest friendship I've had, maybe ever, has been with an SLE... I barely put forth any effort at all but it seems to march right along on its own. very interesting.
    Last edited by redbaron; 03-04-2009 at 09:02 PM. Reason: add
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yes, I appreciate what everyone's saying here. Sometimes I think "just do it" is the way I should be thinking. But it's not like I refuse to call anyone up. What prompted my initial post was this email I sent a friend, inviting her and her husband over to watch a movie this weekend and getting the reply: "that sounds like fun but we're busy every single weekend night until April" which was totally disconcerting. I mean, honestly?? Do I have to schedule something with you people MONTHS in advance? There's no way. I mean sure, a couple of those weekends we're busy too and I didn't necessarily expect them to be free THIS weekend but responses like that make me never want to ask again. And then I'm also dissuaded from asking others because if I find out that EVERYone's busy every weekend night for the next few months, I'm REALLY going to feel like a loser. Now I've had good luck with this woman before with scheduling things during the week like getting together for coffee. But like Diana said, it takes a lot out of me to ask AND if I get a negative response after putting myself out there, I'm less likely to ask again for a really long time. I'm not sure I can just make the decision to change that about myself.

    (and part of my frustration at the moment, no doubt, has to do with this neverending winter we're having. grrrr.)
    redbaron .. i find that it's harder to get people out in winter. some people like to have excuses like "it's cold". then you have to kind of say it'll be warm wherever you want to meet up blah blah..

    Busy every weekend night sounds like scheduling too much. Like it's a responsibility to ensure that you're doing something.

    Anyway, for some reason hardly anyone ever seems to initiate things with me, and it's kind of always been that way. Some people will say things like "it'd be good to catch up" or something else hinting that they'd like someone else to initiate.

    But as it lays at the moment, there's probably .. two .. three .. four . . five people who initiate with me.

    Let's see how they go about it. One tends to try and initiate with lots of people, but his approach tends to be somewhat off. Quantity not quality? Anyway people who want to be "special" don't really like that approach, it's too impersonal. But like he's good for short-term plans, I just wouldn't even expect him to remember longer term plans. With him I used to always want this girl (we both knew) to be around because she softened him. So like on top of his initiating I used to feel like I also had to ensure this girl would be around. So it's like complicated already

    Then there's another friend who can be kind of fickle. And it's like he seemed to be "undecided" whether he wanted to do something or not, and weighing multiple things. Which was a strange approach.

    Anyway, some people are hard, some are easy. Like I saw a friend of mine yesterday, and as I was about to leave, I said that we should have coffee today.. and it's like with most people, I'd be kind of more hesitant about making plans for the day immediately afterwards. Cos it's like you've just seen them. And then there's this "rule" of mine, where I'm only allowed to spend time with one person four out of a possible seven days. So as not to see people too much ..

    But for me it's like I want to see some people often, then there are other people who I see less often and have looser .. but less often rules ..

    Like lots of girls I don't want to see them more than every two weeks ... It's like I have these limits/boundaries ..

    So where was I going, ahh .. it's like I often find myself trying to see where I'm at compared to other people. And with some people I'll find they'll want shorter term plans, whereas some want longer term plans.

    With longer term planning people, I tend to kind of see myself becoming disinterested or getting busy with something else, and it's like I don't want to commit something that I might only end up doing out of wanting to keep to an appointment.

    Whereas with short term planning people, well some are too short term, and I feel like I nede to expand to have space. I get the idea that they'll get clingy, and so on ...

    Anyway,. . so there's always this kind of balance .. where different people are at . .how often you see them, where you spend time with them etc ..

    So where was I going . .when people have plans every weekend blah .. it means that they probably only want to go to kind of scheduled things. Like they need a reason to spend time together etc. Only if there's something significant happening. Or that they've got large social networks and only want to spend very moderate amount of times with lots of people and keep interactions pretty impersonal.

    Also I find some people like if you ask them to spend time together one day, they'll say another day . .and if you're busy that other day, then it's like you can work out together when a time could work.

    One of my problems with initiating is that I kind of half-initiate reasonably often ... kind of guage responses. .without really pushing it into anything..

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Just think about it this way: Why would this weakness bother you so much if it's not something that you truly wanted to overcome (and will.)

    Sometimes we have flaws that we accept and don't worry about. But the flaws in us that bother us, I think that's our better half trying to say 'Come on you can do this.'

    You *know* you're asking your body and your mind and your soul to do something that is well within your reach. You're not asking to make pigs fly, or to wave your hands and make everything okay -- or to win a billion dollars instantly. You're simply asking to take a little more initiative. And that's something you can have control over, you realize that it's just a small choice away. And every time you don't just kinda - take that leap, you get mad at yourself.

    Like Esther Hicks says, (and I agree) all depression is, is when we don't let ourselves get caught up with us.
    This must be the coolest post in a long time. B&D all your posts in this thread are truly cool. I used to have this impression of you as a funny whimsical guy (I haven't come across too many of your posts though) Now when I think of you I'll think "funny, whimsical and WAY COOL dude!!!!"


    I never knew that IEI's had such problems initiating. On a daily basis I contemplate on whether or not I am IEI or IEE lol. For me whenever I want something to happen the initiation just happen naturally. I don't even think to much about it.

    and yeah, I totally agree. Sometimes you want to improve on your weaknesses (as in weaker functions). I guess this would translate into working on my Si in my case. I always used to be aware that I needed to improve on my Se and Ti (super ego for me) but it was an eye opener to me how doing Si stuff made me feel a ton healthier, without feeling unhealthy before. Just more balanced mentally, somehow. And happy and satisfied

    my point is that sometimes you work on your strong functions. Sometimes you have to work on your unvalued and weak functions. And sometimes you want to work on your weak and valued functions. This is what i believe is meant by dualising (is that a word? All of a sudden it sounded really weird in my head). Well anyways this is supposed to be really good for mental development so redbaron, you should do as B&D suggests and as you indeed desire your self. Go ahead!!! I bet you will feel really good afterwards.
    If they reject you just forget about it and think "fuck him, I'm more dualised now" lol

    oh and B&D, I really like the "fake it, until you make it" part. It is really simple, but it works
    n00bIEE

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