Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 54

Thread: Processing Information

  1. #1
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,728
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Arrow Processing Information

    I like lists. I made one of how different functions handle info. Please analyze and correct it. I'm very sure I got the Ts and the Si right.

    : Memorizing Facts
    : Refiguring Facts
    : Refiguring Emotions
    : Memorizing Emotions
    : Memorizing the Future
    : Refiguring the Future
    : Memorizing the Past
    : Refiguring the Past

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  2. #2
    Binky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Burlow, Fryeland
    Posts
    195
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I want to take Director Abbie out on a date. What should I bring?
    -
    It's Binky bitch.
    See not the unsmiling lips and icy eyes,
    And hear not the silence after.
    Look instead as the mime hypnotizes
    And listen to the laughter
    .

  3. #3
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Those aren't functions. They are informational metabolism elements (IME's) and this is how they process information:

    Se: external statics of objects
    Te: external dynamics of objects
    Ti: external statics of fields
    Si: external dynamics of fields
    Ne: internal statics of objects
    Fe: internal dynamics of objects
    Fi: internal statics of fields
    Ni: internal dynamics of fields


    Also I disagree with everything on your list.

    Not trying to be a bast.... but you're wrong =)
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  4. #4
    <something> Wynch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    On a Hill
    TIM
    ILE
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Those aren't functions. They are informational metabolism elements (IME's) and this is how they process information:

    Se: external statics of objects
    Te: external dynamics of objects
    Ti: external statics of fields
    Si: external dynamics of fields
    Ne: internal statics of objects
    Fe: internal dynamics of objects
    Fi: internal statics of fields
    Ni: internal dynamics of fields


    Also I disagree with everything on your list.

    Not trying to be a bast.... but you're wrong =)
    This pretty much summarizes my feelings on the matter.
    ILE
    7w8 so/sp

    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

  5. #5
    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Spain
    TIM
    ILE (ENTp)
    Posts
    4,866
    Mentioned
    15 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    I like lists. I made one of how different functions handle info. Please analyze and correct it. I'm very sure I got the Ts and the Si right.

    : Memorizing Facts
    : Refiguring Facts
    : Refiguring Emotions
    : Memorizing Emotions
    : Memorizing the Future
    : Refiguring the Future
    : Memorizing the Past
    : Refiguring the Past
    I don't understand the meaning of and . Can you explain them to me?
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

  6. #6
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sensing isn't about the past... it's usually described as being about the present, although that isn't exactly it either.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  7. #7
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Using the term "sensing" is only going to cause further confusion because percieving Se is miles apart from percieving Si.

    Totally different mechanisms, it boggles me why people cling to the 4 jungian dichotomies.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  8. #8
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Southwest USA
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    6,728
    Mentioned
    237 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Also I disagree with everything on your list.

    Not trying to be a bast.... but you're wrong =)
    Phoey...your explanations are complexly worded.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  9. #9
    <something> Wynch's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    On a Hill
    TIM
    ILE
    Posts
    3,910
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Phoey...your explanations are complexly worded.
    Rick's page on information elements is definitely one of the best I've read.

    But in summary:

    External/Internal - A subtle difference really. Kind of hard to pinpoint precisely, but External deals with the more concrete while Internal deals with the more abstract.

    Dynamic/Static - Implies a sense of motion. Dynamic is fluid, deals with things as if they are constantly changing and interacting, think of things rolling outwards. Static deals with things in instants or snap shots, rather than rolling outwards it builds in singular pieces.

    Object/Field - An objective/subjective dichotomy. Object is more observational while Field is more judgmental (not to mistaken with judging and perceiving). Object classifies information by seeing what is going on, Field classifies information by deciding what is going on.
    ILE
    7w8 so/sp

    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

  10. #10
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Using the term "sensing" is only going to cause further confusion because percieving Se is miles apart from percieving Si.

    Totally different mechanisms, it boggles me why people cling to the 4 jungian dichotomies.
    Nonsense. Sensing is everything that is external and perceiving; if both external and perceiving are meaningful dichotomies, then external-perceiving (or Sensing) is a meaningful group.

    I favor the Smilexian approach, which uses every Reinin dichotomy plus a few more... what approach are you using? The Ashtonian?



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  11. #11
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Im using my own system in which Im cherry picking things I like and discarding that which I don't =)

    I have discarded perceiving and judging as meaningful dichotomies.

    All information elements are experienced by perception and you can make judgements about the information with all of them afterwards.

    I correlate closest with "ashtonian" but I wouldn't say I'm "ashtonian"
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  12. #12
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Im using my own system in which Im cherry picking things I like and discarding that which I don't =)

    I have discarded perceiving and judging as meaningful dichotomies.

    All information elements are experienced by perception and you can make judgements about the information with all of them afterwards.

    I correlate closest with "ashtonian" but I wouldn't say I'm "ashtonian"
    OK, so the conclusion I draw from this is...

    I can't reasonably include and in the same group unless I include and in the same group?

    Is there a reasonable way to cluster , , and ?



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  13. #13
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    yes thats what I've been getting at.

    I cluster in the following way:

    statics of objects (internal or external)

    dynamics of objects (internal or external)

    statics of fields (internal or external)

    dynamics of fields (internal or external)

    so we have 4 groupings and each one has 2 ways of manifesting (internal or external)
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  14. #14
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    it boggles me why people cling to the 4 jungian dichotomies.
    Although dichotomies might be seen as incomplete/clumsy etc for use in theory, they are effective in practice. It just depends what you want out of socionics.

    BTW I agree that the opening post doesn't make sense.

  15. #15
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ni connects and synthesizes ideas. It's not all about refiguring the future. I'm sorry but that's a very rough/crude way of looking at things. It's like... you're telling one small fact about what Ni does, but that's a really poor way of describing what it does 'in a nutshell.' Internal dynamics of fields is just, more accurate and 'whole.'

    That's why Ni (introverted intuition) is about, writing, about internal worlds in one's own head; about connecting ideas, see how ideas play out in a certain atmosphere. We infps want our wishes to come true, or we want our fantasies ripped apart from us cruelly to learn an ethical lesson - both have to ignore Te in order to do so. (as Ironically enough, Te can both give us what we want and never give us what we want)- and we don't want things to be that matter-of-factly, detailed-base or simple.

    I would say Se is much more about willpower, motivation than 'external stasis of objects' I agree less with Se than the Ni version. I would say Se as a *psychological* function (people act as if Se is somehow sort of some purely tangible process but that isn't true, they're all psychological and all more internal, just some are more 'integrated' and 'Less Pure' than others) Se is more about pure raw willpower about 'Okay, I want to do THAT and then THIS and ahhh.' Ni and Se need each other to me for those reasons. Ni gets lost in too many ideas, too many connections and pathways- it needs to PICK A PATH. Se gives it the willpower to do that, but without Ni- Se is impulsive with no true meaning. It has to have the relationships 'mean something' with the high idealsm of Ni.

    infps already know the right thing to do in situations, already are so keenly aware of the intelligent and ethical course of action is. That's not the problem. We just need to WANT something badly enough. We just want to want it, to want to get it done, to feel the thrill and zest of life that our high ideals mind interconnects effortlessly.

  16. #16
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Se perceives actual, tangible, physical variables in things.

    So when an Se-er wants change they desire to make things actually physical different.

    So intimidation or forcible possesion of "territory" are things that they can perceive and understand best.

    Thats why Se's are often "aggressive."
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  17. #17
    Trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,860
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    OK, so the conclusion I draw from this is...

    I can't reasonably include and in the same group unless I include and in the same group?

    Is there a reasonable way to cluster , , and ?
    You can derive 4 new Reinin-friendly dichotomies from objects-fields, static-dynamic, external-internal dichotomies. One of them is -.

  18. #18
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    You can derive 4 new Reinin-friendly dichotomies from objects-fields, static-dynamic, external-internal dichotomies. One of them is -.
    If I'm allowed to derive dichotomies a la Reinin, then I can derive a grouping of with to the exclusion of all others... so I doubt that Archon will alow me to do that.

    In fact would have to not be a legitimate group for to not be a legitimate group...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  19. #19
    Jarno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Netherlands
    TIM
    ILI-Te
    Posts
    5,375
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Se perceives actual, tangible, physical variables in things.

    So when an Se-er wants change they desire to make things actually physical different.

    So intimidation or forcible possesion of "territory" are things that they can perceive and understand best.

    Thats why Se's are often "aggressive."
    Interesting, maybe someone would need to write how the IM's differ in the aspect of changing things, instead of just perceiving.

  20. #20
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  21. #21
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The following is pretty obvious shit, but it's probably good to lay it out:

    goes with

    goes with

    so the only way that and are related is that they are both external, and are attracted to the conflicting element of eachother.


    So you could make the case that Se/Ni and Ne/Si are mutually exclusive and Te/Fi and Fe/Ti are mutually exclusive therefore...

    [Se/Ni, Ne/Si] are grouped because they cannot both be valued by a quadra and [Te/Fi, Fe/Ti] are grouped for the same reason.

    So the quadra's are:

    [Ne/Si] [Fe/Ti] - Alpha
    [Se/Ni] [Fe/Ti] - Beta
    [Se/Ni] [Te/Fi] - Gamma
    [Ne/Si] [Te/Fi] - Delta

    So one could make the case that and are grouped, but its only because of their exclusivity and conflictive natures.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  22. #22
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Also Im fine with referring to [Se/Ni, Ne/Si] by a certain group name and the same with [Te/Fi, Fe/Ti]...

    but P/J is just BS and does not reflect why they are actually in separate groups.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  23. #23
    Trevor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Posts
    2,860
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    If I'm allowed to derive dichotomies a la Reinin, then I can derive a grouping of with to the exclusion of all others... so I doubt that Archon will alow me to do that.
    You can not...I do not allow you to do that, nor is it possible.

    EXTERNAL FUNCTIONS: Te Se Ti Si
    INTERNAL FUNCTIONS: Ne Fe Ni Fi

    STATIC FUNCTIONS:Se Ne Ti Fi
    DYNAMIC FUNCTIONS:Te Fe Si Ni

    OBJECT FUNCTIONS: Te Fe Se Ne
    FIELD FUNCTIONS:Ti Fi Si Ni

    EXTERNAL STATIC+INTERNAL DYNAMIC FUNCTIONS:Fe Ti Se Ni, also known as beta-quadra-valued-functions.
    EXTERNAL DYNAMIC+INTERNAL STATIC FUNCTIONS:Te Fi Ne Si, also known as delta-quadra-valued-functions.

    EXTERNAL OBJECT+INTERNAL FIELD FUNCTIONS:Te Se Fi Ni, also known as gamma-quadra-valued-functions.
    EXTERNAL FIELD+INTERNAL OBJECT FUNCTIONS:Ne Fe Si Ti, also known as alpha-quadra-valued-functions.

    STATIC OF OBJECTS+DYNAMIC OF FIELDS FUNCTIONS:Se Si Ne Ni, also known as perceiving functions.
    STATIC OF FIELDS+DYNAMIC OF OBJECTS FUNCTIONS:Fe Fi Te Ti, also known as judging functions.

    BETA-QUADRA-VALUED-OBJECT + DELTA-QUADRA-VALUED-FIELD FUNCTIONS:Se Si Fe Fi, also known as socially-open functions.
    BETA-QUADRA-VALUED-FIELD + DELTA-QUADRA-VALUED-OBJECT FUNCTIONS:Ne Ni Te Ti, also known as socially-closed functions.

  24. #24
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tuturututu View Post
    You can not...I do not allow you to do that, nor is it possible.

    EXTERNAL FUNCTIONS: Te Se Ti Si
    INTERNAL FUNCTIONS: Ne Fe Ni Fi

    STATIC FUNCTIONS:Se Ne Ti Fi
    DYNAMIC FUNCTIONS:Te Fe Si Ni

    OBJECT FUNCTIONS: Te Fe Se Ne
    FIELD FUNCTIONS:Ti Fi Si Ni

    EXTERNAL STATIC+INTERNAL DYNAMIC FUNCTIONS:Fe Ti Se Ni, also known as beta-quadra-valued-functions.
    EXTERNAL DYNAMIC+INTERNAL STATIC FUNCTIONS:Te Fi Ne Si, also known as delta-quadra-valued-functions.

    EXTERNAL OBJECT+INTERNAL FIELD FUNCTIONS:Te Se Fi Ni, also known as gamma-quadra-valued-functions.
    EXTERNAL FIELD+INTERNAL OBJECT FUNCTIONS:Ne Fe Si Ti, also known as alpha-quadra-valued-functions.

    STATIC OF OBJECTS+DYNAMIC OF FIELDS FUNCTIONS:Se Si Ne Ni, also known as perceiving functions.
    STATIC OF FIELDS+DYNAMIC OF OBJECTS FUNCTIONS:Fe Fi Te Ti, also known as judging functions.

    BETA-QUADRA-VALUED-OBJECT + DELTA-QUADRA-VALUED-FIELD FUNCTIONS:Se Si Fe Fi, also known as socially-open functions.
    BETA-QUADRA-VALUED-FIELD + DELTA-QUADRA-VALUED-OBJECT FUNCTIONS:Ne Ni Te Ti, also known as socially-closed functions.
    STATIC OF OBJECTS+DYNAMIC OF FIELDS FUNCTIONS:Se Si Ne Ni, also known as perceiving functions.

    EXTERNAL PERCEIVING FUNCTIONS:Se Si

    Done. A grouping of 1/4 of the space naturally uses one side of each of two dichotomies...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  25. #25
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    okayyy....

    But once again its silly to call them "sensing"

    if you wanna label Attributes (statics of objects) and Flows (dynamics of fields) as "set x" then fine.

    But "perceiving" is a horrible name for set x

    and Se and Si have little to do with eachother.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  26. #26
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  27. #27
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I grant you this: the Russian Socionics jargon often does not mean in English what it means in Socionics. So "perceiving," "sensing," "external"... they mean Socionics concepts. Then do not refer to perceptions, sensations or the outsides of things. But I prefer to use the commonly accepted words among those who understand them... if you know of a better word for "Sensing" or for "Perceiving" then tell me, and I'd be happy to use it in your presence. But I wish to refer to those categories.



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

  28. #28
    Board philosopher or bored philosopher? jason_m's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    884
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Rick's page on information elements is definitely one of the best I've read.

    But in summary:

    External/Internal - A subtle difference really. Kind of hard to pinpoint precisely, but External deals with the more concrete while Internal deals with the more abstract.

    Dynamic/Static - Implies a sense of motion. Dynamic is fluid, deals with things as if they are constantly changing and interacting, think of things rolling outwards. Static deals with things in instants or snap shots, rather than rolling outwards it builds in singular pieces.

    Object/Field - An objective/subjective dichotomy. Object is more observational while Field is more judgmental (not to mistaken with judging and perceiving). Object classifies information by seeing what is going on, Field classifies information by deciding what is going on.
    So far, this is the only intelligible description of these dichotomies that I've seen. Most seem to use very vague language, making it difficult to apply them to real life. Assuming that what you've written here is accurate, thank you. It should better help me understand the elements.

    Jason
    LII

  29. #29
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    The following is pretty obvious shit, but it's probably good to lay it out:

    goes with

    goes with

    so the only way that and are related is that they are both external, and are attracted to the conflicting element of eachother.


    So you could make the case that Se/Ni and Ne/Si are mutually exclusive and Te/Fi and Fe/Ti are mutually exclusive therefore...

    [Se/Ni, Ne/Si] are grouped because they cannot both be valued by a quadra and [Te/Fi, Fe/Ti] are grouped for the same reason.
    Se and Si are linked in the same way because the property of being Strong in one always coincides with the property of being Strong in the other. It's the exact same principle except in that Valued is swapped for Strong.

    Same goes for Ne and Ni, Ti and Te, Fi and Fe.

    There are also groups that combine this property of function strengths in the same way as your quadras do with the property of function values. These groups are known as the Clubs and are used extensively in typing.

  30. #30
    Smilingeyes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,228
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    OK, so the conclusion I draw from this is...

    I can't reasonably include and in the same group unless I include and in the same group?

    Is there a reasonable way to cluster , , and ?
    Yes, they are the socially open functions.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  31. #31
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    3w4 sx/so
    Posts
    24,757
    Mentioned
    91 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    They are also the "involved" functions in the abstract/involved dichotomy. (abstract being Intuitive and Logical functions, involved being sensory and ethical).
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

  32. #32
    Smilingeyes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,228
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    They are also the "involved" functions in the abstract/involved dichotomy. (abstract being Intuitive and Logical functions, involved being sensory and ethical).
    That's a pretty good way to describe them.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  33. #33
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ummm... so define this "abstract" and "involved" to me.

    Because seems to me like they have basically nothing to do with eachother.

    abstracts and involveds include two externals, two dynamics, and two fields. They include two internals, two statics, and two objects.

    Abstracts:

    External dynamics of objects
    External statics of fields
    Internal statics of objects
    Internal dynamics of fields

    Involved:

    External statics of objects
    External dynamics of fields
    Internal dynamics of objects
    Internal statics of fields


    So why exactly are these grouped, what makes one "abstract" and the other "involved", and why are Se, Si, Fe, Fi socially open?
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  34. #34
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Abstracted aka Socially Closed:
    Internal Perceiving OR External Judging (N or T)
    Involved aka Socially Open:
    External Perceiving OR Internal Judging (S or F)

    So why exactly are these grouped, what makes one "abstract" and the other "involved", and why are Se, Si, Fe, Fi socially open?
    This is a fact observed in practice: NT types are as a rule less socially inclined than SF types or even NF and ST types. There is a clear scale of social activity with NT types at the socially disinclined end and SF types at the socially active side, and STs and NFs down the middle of it. The explanation is that NT types possess two socially closed functions, SF types possess two socially open functions, and ST and NF types possess one of each.

  35. #35
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The first part only applies if you accept "judging and perceiving" as legit dichotomies.

    And I think the second is mostly stereotypical BS.

    Not only do you need to define "socially inclined", but if it is what I think you mean (outgoing and socially tactful/concerned), than it doesn't reflect reality at all.

    Plenty of Si ISFp's for example are characteristically aloof and abstract. Ne ENTp's are generally outgoing and "people-oriented."
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  36. #36
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The first part only applies if you accept "judging and perceiving" as legit dichotomies.
    You're just about the first person ever to deny that they are legit dichotomies. The burden of proof is on you.

    Plenty of Si ISFp's for example are characteristically aloof and abstract. Ne ENTp's are generally outgoing and "people-oriented."
    Extrovert/introvert is, of course, another factor. Probably a stronger one than socially open/socially closed.

  37. #37
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Well then all the more glory to me

    Yeah, seeing the physical processes of objects (Te) does not require a judgement on the part of the observer. You just percieve how it happens and then create conceptions afterwords. Same with all the other "judging" elements.

    sensation -> perception -> conception -> action

    The information elements are different types of passive input filters by which we focus and select incoming sensory information relevant to whatever element is in use.

    You perceive with the IE's... and conceptions (judgements) are possible with any of them.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  38. #38
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    5,983
    Mentioned
    80 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    IMO the "Judging" notation refers to how a comparison between two entities is made. To notice the activity of an object is to notice how it changes from one state to another. So whenever you "notice" an activity, you are already comparing a past state to a present or future one. Hence comparison; judgment.

  39. #39
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    POOPLAIR
    TIM
    Alpha NT 5w4 so/sx
    Posts
    4,399
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    You seem to be describing the linear sequential motion of objects i.e. dynamics.

    If you can "notice" the activity of the external dynamics of objects and the internal dynamics of objects, why can't you "notice" the activity of the external dynamics of fields and the internal dynamics of fields?

    Also, why does this "noticing" apply to dynamics of objects and statics of fields, but not to dynamics of fields and statics of objects?
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

    Now conscripting, for more information come here: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...48#post1003048

  40. #40
    Currently God Brilliand's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Nevada
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    4,246
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    IMO the "Judging" notation refers to how a comparison between two entities is made. To notice the activity of an object is to notice how it changes from one state to another. So whenever you "notice" an activity, you are already comparing a past state to a present or future one. Hence comparison; judgment.
    On the other hand, fields are changes, so the "statics of fields" is the intersection of two fields, whereas the "dynamics of fields" can refer to just one.

    That just popped into my head...



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

    Johari

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •