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    Default Central information dump thread

    Result: oppurtunity minded
    Process: obstacle minded

    Result and Process determine how Positivism and Negativism are distributed along Static and Dynamic blocks in the model A. As such there are quite a few characteristics related to the colloquial optimism/pessimism "dichotomy" that are to be attributed to Result/Process rather than Positivism/Negativism.

    NB: this does not mean that everything with regard to optimism/pessimism has been said and done once Process/Result has been linked to it. Merry/Serious is also almost certainly related, Serious being the more pessimistic.

    Negative/Process: the attitude of a person that is gathering information on obstacles on his/her path (I need to do this, that, take care of that, all the while preventing this... etc)
    Positive/Result: the attitude of a person that is scouting out oppurtunities in his surroundings

    Those cover the Dynamic types: people with thoughts that are not clearly divorced from the environment; people who think along with the environment.

    The Statics think apart from the environment and are more likely at variance with it. Their attitude towards problems is also contrasted to what the environment offers.

    Positive/Process: the environment provides problems and the person ranges over ways to solve these. The focus is on reaching a breakthrough.
    Negative/Result: the environment provides oppurtunities and the person formulates a personal problem in light of these; how does one best make use of these oppurtunities in limited time?

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    Removed on account of being unreliable. If there was anything here you wanted to see anyway, PM me.
    Last edited by krieger; 05-01-2009 at 01:44 AM.

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    Statics: people who think deeply, but narrowly. Put the emphasis on absolutes intrinsic to things at a distance from themselves.
    Dynamics: people who think shallowly, but broadly. Put the emphasis on absolutes intrinsic to their own knowledge and observations.

    When it comes to simple things (Accepting function axis), Dynamics are the ones that act immediately and decisively, whereas Statics are the ones that start to doubt what they should do (they see too many options). When it comes to complex things (Creating function axis), Dynamics just proliferate the building blocks of the subject matter without putting the pieces together, whereas Statics construct an actual representation from the material. Dynamics import information on complex subjects from Statics. They, moreso than Statics, believe that "understanding" of complex topics can, and needs to be, imported. When speaking of their understanding, they are likely to parrot their sources.

    All information is transmitted in Dynamic form. Language is "Dynamic" information.

    Static functions concern things at a distance from the thinker. Dynamic functions concern information that the thinker is in direct contact with.

    Static information (representations of things at a distance) is composed of Dynamic information (images, words, sentences that a thinker processes in a direct way and is in immediate contact with). The former is constructed from the latter.
    Last edited by krieger; 05-01-2009 at 01:52 AM.

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    Imported from:
    Metasocion.com • View topic - Central definition thread

    Accepting = Perceiving functions in Irrational types, Judging functions in Rational types
    Creating = Perceiving function in Rational types, Judging functions in Irrational types

    Accepting: simple, robust
    Creating: complex, delicate

    Accepting functions govern the kinds of activities and thoughts that do not require prior learning to be employed. They concern quick-and-dirty reactions. Creating functions concern complex topics that can only be apprehended after long periods of deliberation. Creating functions concern information that is "pieced together". They form the coherent structure in which the individual, self-sustaining parts that the Accepting functions deal with find their reconciliation. The Creating information consists in little more than the constatation that several Accepting mechanisms are in agreement with eachother, such that these can be processed in an accelerated way by means of consolidation into a higher order structure.

    Static: Mental functions in Static types, Vital functions in Dynamic types (ordinarily known as Ne, Ti, Se, Fi)
    Dynamic: Mental functions in Dynamic types, Vital functions in Static types (ordinarily known as Ni, Te, Si, Fe)

    Static: behind the screens, noumenal world
    Dynamic: at face value, phenomenal world

    Dynamic functions concern information that the thinking subject (processor of the information) is in direct contact with. Static functions concern indirect inference of the specifications of something at a distance.

    Limiting: absolute, necessitated, singular, fully-encompassing, whole
    Empowering: relative, contingent, multiplar, partly-encompassing, part

    Perceiving = Ne, Se, Ni, Si
    Judging = Ti, Fi, Te, Fe

    Perceiving: wholistic, comprehended as noun-phrase, denoted rather than expressed
    Judging: reductionistic, comprehended as verb-phrase, expressed rather than denoted
    Last edited by krieger; 05-23-2009 at 04:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Static information (representations of things at proximity) is composed of Dynamic information (images, words, sentences that a thinker processes in a direct way and is in immediate contact with). The former is constructed from the latter.
    I think this confuses... Static/Dynamic with Judging/Perceiving. Ji information is composed of Pe information... Je information is composed of Pi information. If Ji information were composed of Pi information, then the specialization you mentioned earlier (Static is deep, Dynamic is broad) would not exist.

    This of course throws off the usual prejudice of the Xe functions being superior in favor of the Xi functions being superior... perhaps, rather, you're seeing the other side that balances the scales.

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Accepting functions govern the kinds of activities and thoughts that do not require prior learning to be employed. They concern quick-and-dirty reactions. Creating functions concern complex topics that can only be apprehended after long periods of deliberation. Creating functions concern information that is "pieced together". They form the coherent structure in which the individual, self-sustaining parts that the Accepting functions deal with find their reconciliation. The Creating information consists in little more than the constatation that several Accepting mechanisms are in agreement with eachother, such that these can be processed in an accelerated way by means of consolidation into a higher order structure.
    Your base is not structure-forming?



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    I think this confuses... Static/Dynamic with Judging/Perceiving.
    In what way? Do you think Judging is about infering the specifics of something at a distance by means of a reasoning process? What do you classify a measurement as? IMO a measurement is a very clear "judgment" (comparison) made on the basis of information that one is in direct contact with. There is no process of inference or indirect deduction involved; it's simply an acknowledgement. So this would conflict with your conclusion.

    Ji information is composed of Pe information... Je information is composed of Pi information.
    The relation between those pairs of functions is more intimate yet than "being composed of one another". It is at times hard to distinguish Ji from Pe or Je from Pi. Basically, when two nodes of P are posited, the J relation emerges naturally between them. Likewise, when one node of P is posited and a J relation is drawn out from it, the other node of P that the J relation connects with emerges. One thing to notice, though, is that there can never be J without P. Hence why P -> J is a first-then mechanism. However, P is nothing more than a name when there isn't J to tell it apart from other things.

    This of course throws off the usual prejudice of the Xe functions being superior in favor of the Xi functions being superior... perhaps, rather, you're seeing the other side that balances the scales.
    I don't acknowledge the existence of "Xi functions" as a meaningful grouping of terms. I only use the "i" notation as a convention. The object/field aspect of functions does not exist.

    I also don't hold any sort of belief on superiority of one function over another.

    Your base is not structure-forming?
    That's what I'm saying. The Accepting functions are what you use in the absence of any formed structure (learning). In the case of us Judgers, this means deciding on the basis of measurements (= limiting Je) and policies. Now one could argue that a "policy" is the result of learning. The kind of learning involved here is of no greater complexity than a "Pavlov reflex", though. Hence "quick and dirty reaction".

    -- "policy" is NOT linked to Ti in the above sentence.
    Last edited by krieger; 04-22-2009 at 11:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    That's what I'm saying. The Accepting functions are what you use in the absence of any formed structure (learning). In the case of us Judgers, this means deciding on the basis of measurements (= limiting Je) and policies. Now one could argue that a "policy" is the result of learning. The kind of learning involved here is of no greater complexity than a "Pavlov reflex", though. Hence "quick and dirty reaction".
    I don't think it's right to equate structure with learning. For instance, here's how I see LII (and this is a change from my thinking half an hour ago):

    The LII stores information in Ne in the form of disjointed concepts. These are not a structure; they are simply ideas. Over in the base, Ti does not store information, but it acts at blinding, knee-jerk speeds, assembling structures which are not persistent. Thus, the Ne concepts (which persist) will always be seen as part of a structure, even though that structure is not persistent.



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    The LII stores information in Ne in the form of disjointed concepts. These are not a structure; they are simply ideas.
    They are structures, because they can be reduced to factual statements. At any time you can ask an INTj what the exact definition is of any idea or concept that s/he uses and s/he will have an answer at the ready.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    They are structures, because they can be reduced to factual statements. At any time you can ask an INTj what the exact definition is of any idea or concept that s/he uses and s/he will have an answer at the ready.
    I know that when I do this, my answer will vary from day to day. I suspect that this is a manifestation of handling the situation on the fly. Do EIIs do this as well?



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    Do EIIs do this as well?
    Yes. But the elementary facts they reduce things to are of a humanitarian kind like "hurt, murder, transgress, etc."

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Yes. But the elementary facts they reduce things to are of a humanitarian kind like "hurt, murder, transgress, etc."
    OK - then I'd say the persistent Ne has no structure except the inherent similarity of the concepts to each other, and even that is not recognized by the Ne, but by the Ti as it scans the concepts at blinding speeds to form the requested definition for a particular concept. These elementary facts are formed on the fly by the base function from persistent Pe fragments.

    Definitions are formed from masses of concepts - they don't stand alone.



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    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Definitions are formed from masses of concepts - they don't stand alone.
    That's what I've been saying all along. They're composed of something, not standalone. A standalone noun-phrase is Accepting/Limiting Pi. Think of words like "love", "reality", "hope", etc.

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    Hey Labcoat, can you explain limiting and empowering more?
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    Well, let's try. The following is part of the system of beliefs that I hold and expose above and in my other theoretical writings. It can not very well be read apart from the rest of the material.

    Limiting/Empowering is what you get when you put Static/Dynamic and Accepting/Creating together.

    When a function is Dynamic and Accepting, it is Limiting.
    When one is Static and Accepting however, it is Empowering.

    For the Creating functions the distribution along Static/Dynamic is opposite:

    Dynamic and Creating: Empowering.
    Static and Creating: Limiting.

    Now let's apply some of my definitions...

    The Accepting function concerns activities that do not involve prior learning. It concerns simple activities that quickly react to events with little deep deliberation. It concerns instant reactions.

    Dynamic signifies data that one is in direct contact with. Images, language and things like that. (consider how, when one is describing the activities (dynamics) of something, one suffices with calling the thing by name, rather than defining the thing from the ground up)

    When the two are put together, we get Limiting. Limiting means absolute, locked-down, comprising all there is to a thought.

    So what this line says:

    When a function is Dynamic and Accepting, it is Limiting.
    Is nothing more and nothing less, than that when you are trying to make a very quick decision with little regard to the full complexities of the situation, you can make do with whatever information you have directly available to you. This information is "absolute" in the sense that it provides everything you need.

    Now, looking at the Static Accepting function...

    When one is Static and Accepting however, it is Empowering.
    Static relates to concepts and objects at a distance that one can only cognize by creating a representation of them in the form of Dynamic information.

    Empowering is the opposite of Limiting. It is relative, contingent, only a part of what is going on.

    So the line quoted above means that when you are looking at something in this quick, unconcerned way, whatever goes on on a "behind the screens" level is a matter of free-roaming imagination. From this single perspective the world is looked at, almost anything can be entertained to be going on. Any suggestion as to what is going on at a distance is just a contingency - one out of many possibilities.

    That covers the Accepting function axis. In the Creating axis, things are opposite. Multiple viewpoints are tried to be combined, such that the viewpoints themselves become the contingent "one out of many", and the situation at a distance gets locked down by the fact that only one case is allowed by all of the perspectives.

    I could write out the whole of the Creating part in detail if you want me to. Is any of this helpful?
    Last edited by krieger; 04-23-2009 at 02:15 AM.

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    Yes this helpful, although I have not observed these mechanisms as of yet. Its interesting though.
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    Thanks. Keep an eye out for this stuff!

    ps. fixing a small error in the writing: I've been using the phrase "at proximity" for what I meant to mean "at a distance". The errors have been edited out.

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    Change Dynamic to Static in the second sentence.

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    Figgs'd.

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    On the transmission of information:

    Pi is transmitted by being mimmicked, reproduced.

    Pe is transmitted by being denoted, called by name.

    Ji is transmitted by being claimed or proven.

    Je is transmitted by being expressed, formulated.

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    NTp Process is about mental occupation; not resting until you have solved a problem.
    STp Result is about spontaneously reacting to the immediate environment. Making assessments on the immediate situation and adjusting them continually. Being "in sync" with reality.
    SFp Process is about locking down something that needs to be said or done.
    NFp Result is about thinking up a funny/interesting/worthwhile thing to do and/or say on the basis of cues received from the environment. Witty, manouverable, reactive social behavior. The classical sense of humor.
    NTj Result is about decision making; cutting things off; resisting occupation. Giving your opinion "at first glance" and not worrying about how much better your views could be if you considered the situation longer than you did.
    STj Process is about physical occupation; focussedly acting towards a defined practical goal. Ignoring input from the environment while subjecting it to your plan.
    SFj Result is about polite social manouvering; making small contributions in many different places. Not siding with anyone in particular: political ambiguousness.
    NFj Process is about political occupation; devoting yourself to a cause. Having a purpose so important you have keep, keep and keep contributing to it.

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