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Thread: ENFp/ENTp

  1. #1
    Creepy-male

    Default ENFp/ENTp

    "Once they have come to a conclusion, they don't like to have to logically defend their type publicly because, more often than not, that means participating in a debate over categories and definitions and sharing personal feelings and information in an antagonistic setting."

    So, thread has two purposes:

    Discussing my typing, and typing ENFps in general.

    Cohen's Bulldog, deploy!

    Why ENFp:

    With Jungian dichotomies...

    N, because I'm tuned out of the physical world, and more into ideas and information (and 50% easier to rephrase that in a Negativist fashion).

    F, because it's just easier for me to "get" the 'human, social, moral, and emotional content of reality'.

    And finally, EP temperament. I've experienced going from nigh-breakdown depression (you know, when you start operating from 128% pessimism downward) to upbeat in the span of 20 minutes.

  2. #2
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    what is "no identity subtype"?
    7w6 sx/so.

    That, and being 9w1. You stop being able to define yourself as any sort of coherent entity that exists outside of the context of other people.

    But anyway.

  3. #3
    Creepy-male

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    In terms of defining my identity, definitely the latter. "It just is" something that doesn't seem like it will ever sort itself out.

    As for needing Se or Si, I enjoy Si, but what I need is Te to break things down into digestible chunks. I tend to break down in Se-heavy environments of "you must do X, you must do y." (though I could have misunderstood Se... could you explain what you mean by Se "pushing into greater order"?)

    EDIT

    And I'm not even sure if I'm accurately describing myself. I can see me reading this tomorrow, or in a week, and going "wtf, who wrote this?"

    EP's disjointed states again, I s'pose.
    Last edited by male; 02-21-2009 at 03:26 AM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    I've experienced going from nigh-breakdown depression (you know, when you start operating from 128% pessimism downward) to upbeat in the span of 20 minutes.
    This is not necessarily type related, it could point to mood swings or a mood disorder such as bipolar, cyclothymia or hypomania. Like I said in one of my blogs: The impulsiveness of ExxP's does not mean they suffer from ADHD, or that all people suffering from ADHD are, by definition, ENFp's, as I've read on a site that no longer exists.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  5. #5
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    This is not necessarily type related, it could point to mood swings or a mood disorder such as bipolar, cyclothymia or hypomania. Like I said in one of my blogs: The impulsiveness of ExxP's does not mean they suffer from ADHD, or that all people suffering from ADHD are, by definition, ENFp's, as I've read on a site that no longer exists.
    Well, possibly because it was a slight overstatement. But, you know, when you completely shut in mentally and get locked completely into the present state for a day or so (and see it stretching away into the future)... then completely swing around and go back into flexy mode.

    There's also that element of reactivity that I understand differentiates EP from cyclothymia. Right now there's a lot of pressure at school, so I'm hitting lows more easily, but if I'm preparing for a forum meet or a birthday or something, the mood white noise shifts up a gear, and I'm more likely to brush against "meh" moods than "" moods.

    And, ifmd, yeah, I'm much more sensitive to my deficiency in Te, I'd agree. Does the super-id in IEEs manifest itself as being unable to "tune out" from the world around you? Relevant to the comment about 7s falling into the trap of just getting strung along by an endless series of tempting invitations from outside.

    LATER THOUGHT

    In terms of the way Ne and Ni are plugged into time...

    Ne: "Too many transitions between B and C, better to just nudge towards C and have backup plans."
    Ni: "Too many possible outcomes after B, better to just stick to the plan and hope I wind up at C."

    Diagramatically, if you have two dots linked by a line, would Ne view the line as being the center of if-based uncertainty, while Ni views the end dot as being uncertain instead?
    Last edited by male; 02-21-2009 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Well, possibly because it was a slight overstatement. But, you know, when you completely shut in mentally and get locked completely into the present state for a day or so (and see it stretching away into the future)... then completely swing around and go back into flexy mode.

    There's also that element of reactivity that I understand differentiates EP from cyclothymia. Right now there's a lot of pressure at school, so I'm hitting lows more easily, but if I'm preparing for a forum meet or a birthday or something, the mood white noise shifts up a gear, and I'm more likely to brush against "meh" moods than "" moods.

    And, ifmd, yeah, I'm much more sensitive to my deficiency in Te, I'd agree. Does the super-id in IEEs manifest itself as being unable to "tune out" from the world around you? Relevant to the comment about 7s falling into the trap of just getting strung along by an endless series of tempting invitations from outside.

    LATER THOUGHT

    In terms of the way Ne and Ni are plugged into time...

    Ne: "Too many transitions between B and C, better to just nudge towards C and have backup plans."
    Ni: "Too many possible outcomes after B, better to just stick to the plan and hope I wind up at C."

    Diagramatically, if you have two dots linked by a line, would Ne view the line as being the center of if-based uncertainty, while Ni views the end dot as being uncertain instead?
    I don't know about your type, but you are making a rather hyperactive impression
    The future of Socionics:
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  7. #7
    Creepy-male

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    I'll just dismiss it as Ti-PoLR bears

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    Gulanzon, your entire writing style and demeanor exudes Ne/Fe.

    Also I think you may be confused about the info elements.
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    you are a beta type.. probably infp, and you suck at socionics.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    you are a beta type.. probably infp, and you suck at socionics.
    Me or Gul?

    I'm assuming Gul and he is deff not Beta. The topic jumping, kind of jerky, hoppy reasoning and randomness points to Ne mode. No Se.
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  11. #11
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    I do think that I would conflict with an LSI then. As far as systems go, you need to tailor them on a case-by-case basis. Obviously, the logistics of that are a nightmare when you have to do it on a large scale, so on that basis, rigid rule systems get the job done.

    In other words, codified rulesets are the best way of reigning in the masses... so I don't want to be a part of them! It's just not worth fighting it at all

    [LATER THOUGHT: I suppose what I'm saying is, from an NF perspective, "Yes, systems work, and they apply to the 68% of the population that matters, but you'll always have black sheep and white crows that are almost victimized by unflinching adherence to a fixed set of rules."]

    And yes, agreement with the "conceptual interest". Interest in Socionics has naturally evolved into interest in how humans interact with and process objective reality (I swear it's out there!)

    Possibly worth noting that I was formulating this reponse while Audiosurfing If that's not result > process, I don't know what is.

    EDIT

    Ugh, ArchonAlarion

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Gulanzon, your entire writing style and demeanor exudes Ne/Fe.
    Ne, I can see.

    Fe, I cannot.

    Describe what you mean by Fe. "Shouldn't it be obvious?" No, it isn't. And if you can't verbalize it, I'd say that points to a weakness in your understanding of the information elements (though, I'm not saying I'm any better! I'm awful at all this).

  12. #12
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    I can understand if you're joking Gul about Ti "rules," but I'd like to point out that its absolutely bullshit.
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  13. #13
    Creepy-male

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    Maybe I'm misattributing rigid rule systems to Ti, then.

    But when people start beating their heads against a wall trying to get me to do something, even if the face of overwhelming evidence that the current approach is not working, it worries me \:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Maybe I'm misattributing rigid rule systems to Ti, then.

    But when people start beating their heads against a wall trying to get me to do something, even if the face of overwhelming evidence that the current approach is not working, it worries me \:
    Well thats just people being fucking stupid lol.

    But I think you are being averse to Se in that case.

    Ti is only rigid in that it wants to keep the relations between things external and is afraid of things being Internal.

    What I mean is that Ti will be fine with saying, "Okay, you've convinced me, this relationship is category B and not category A."

    Ti would not be fine with the following, "This relationship cannot be clearly defined, categorized, or based on some system that can be subject to analysis."

    and vice versa for Fi


    The "Link" elements (Ti, Fi) are not stubborn in changing the link from Internal A to Internal B or External A to External B.

    They get upset when you try to go from Internal to External or External to Internal.

    People mistake this for rigidity and stubborness for both Ti and Fi.
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  15. #15
    Creepy-male

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    Scary to say, but I think that would point towards Ti then.

    Going by interactions with my SLI friend, it's like...

    "Look at this amazing system!"
    "No I'm uniquely me, stop trying to describe me that way."
    "...

    ...

    ...

    uh...

    *crunch*
    *click*

    Ah, gotcha.

    Anyway, what's your enneatype?"

    EDIT

    Though, could just be Ti-PoLR being fiercely resistant to paradigm shifts. They just make more confusing sludge to wade through

    FURTHER EDIT

    To be fair, Ethical > Logic is the only dichotomy I'm absolutely certain about. E/I, N/S and j/p are ???

  16. #16
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    That ethical-logical dichotomy does not exist.

    Ti types can be just as concerned about interpersonal relationships as Fi types are, but they will go about them in different ways. In fact Ti INTj's make good psycho-analysts from my understanding.


    Don't get caught up in the "dichotomies"
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  17. #17
    Creepy-male

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    Misunderstandimating me, bro.

    The world I'm "plugged in to" is emotional. Emotional signals are what personally stand out to me, and I understand them easily and intuitively.

    "Intuitive" being the operative word. I think this points towards p over j.

    (And you can say the dichotomies are useless... but I won't listen to you unless you say why )

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Misunderstandimating me, bro.

    The world I'm "plugged in to" is emotional. Emotional signals are what personally stand out to me, and I understand them easily and intuitively.

    "Intuitive" being the operative word. I think this points towards p over j.

    (And you can say the dichotomies are useless... but I won't listen to you unless you say why )
    iight, fair enough.

    Before I start the explanation process I'd like to point out that what you just said is describing an Ne ENTp's Fe agenda =P



    Okay... to make things easier for me I will repost a portion of my descriptions of the info elements (Obviously they are unfinished so dont be too harsh):


    Revision of the Socionics Code and My Interpretation of the Information Elements
    By Jacob Scranton aka ArchonAlarion


    Each information element is positioned along three dichotomies:
    Internal/External Static/Dynamic Bodies (objects)/Fields

    Internal: That which is implicit, essential (as pertaining to "essences"), immaterial, fleeting, “intuitive”, etc.

    External: That which is explicit, clear, definable, quantifiable, material, concrete, physical, etc.

    Static: A horizontal simultaneous view, stationary, still, broad, snapshot, etc. (This is here and that is there)

    Dynamic: A linear sequential view, motion, process, long, movie, etc. (Before this, after that)

    Bodies (objects): Things by themselves, person, place, event, a thing alone without the judgments and feelings of observers being added to its qualities.

    Fields: The interrelations between things, how an observer relates to something, the conceptual space in between bodies that consists of their relations to each other.

    Static Bodies (Attributes): The variables of a thing. What something has at a certain moment. The qualities that define a thing and that allow it to be compared to other things. Qualities, variables, attributes, etc.

    Dynamic Bodies (Paths): The changes that a thing is undergoing. It is the process of something, how things happen, and what needs to be done to make a thing change. Along what path a thing is heading.

    Static Fields (Links): The attributes of a relationship between things. What exactly the observer’s view on a thing is. How things should fit together and how should something be considered. The “distance” between objects in a framework. A "matrix" or "constellation."

    Dynamic Fields (Flows): The changing environment in which things exist. It is the processes behind the relationships of things. A broad "theme" or context of an environment or process.
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  19. #19
    Creepy-male

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    That infodump is bigger than my mental mouth can chew on.

    But, if you're going for external/internal link, then internal.

    The simple fact is the set Ben contains Ben and the empty set, and specific operations on Ben may have different outcomes than they do when performed on Rask or Barnabus. Human interaction is not at all measurable |:

    That said, personal insight into "How this panned out for me" is riveting stuff. That's why I'm an EII addict.

  20. #20
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    the LIE operates large-scale enterprise just fine without said systems. the LSI would ideally systematize all scales. what you've said to the contrary could be a Delta POV. what you've said of fighiting sounds Ne/Si. (though an IEI might relate to both, leaving them to quadramates with more rationality or more Se.)
    "Senior Alternative Suggester"

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    in contrast, Beta NF are more inclined to interest themselves in the subjective interactions with reality.
    Possibly this for me. It's fascinating hearing first-person experiences of how people interact with the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    i've observed Process types walking and talking at the same time. perhaps save this dichotomy for when you've analyzed some tasks more long-term.
    Semi-serious from me, but duly noted. (Though, to be fair, I think it's more of an inclination thing--it's not like Process types absolutely can't multitask, I suppose they just prefer not to. Just like how I prefer to be doing multiple things at the same time... like thinking about what to say next, or chewing on some interesting problem while playing vidjer games.)

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    what he could be seeing could be Fe as a Demonstrative/8th function. what i'm seeing is a lot of self-deprecation of your practical and analytical logics, the later of which isn't likely of a Fe HA Ne type.
    'Because IEEs so rarely make public discussions of their types, I believe that some Socionists on the16types.info forum have erroneous (or at the very least, naive,) views of IEEs. For example, I created a typing thread after I'd received messages from others stating that I "give off too much Fe" to be IEE.'

    This? I think there's a misunderstanding that the demonstrative function just "doesn't get used". IEEs are Fs, and that's that :wink:

    Also, yes, my T-skillz are mad weax, yo. It's easily observable in myself. I'm just better at F.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    he does use a lot of Ne for a IEI, but Se could be his DS.
    Is it a common communication style for Ni-egos to try and "galvanise" a strong or sharp response from people? I notice how niff, strrrng and pumpkins all have that blasty, slightly inconsiderate (from my perspective) way of talking.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    "not working" may be the exception and not the rule. though this can be frustrating if you only plan on working with the LSI's system temporarily.
    The rule is that I'm the exception

    And lots of people are, ime. Rules tend to break down in my world.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    all Ti can be convinced of new categorizations, yes. absolute adherence to systems against reason isn't strong Ti (although it may be related to misusing Ti Superid.)
    As I said earlier, I dislike having to learn new systems for looking at things. My gut reaction to Smilexionics is "Ew, new stuff." Deep-down, I know I wouldn't be able to evaluate which one is "better".

    I think this is a fair case for Ti-PoLR bears.

    ...

    Am I just rehashing useless information?

  21. #21
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    smilexian socionics is written very Te and I can't get through much of it. From what I have Im not to keen on it.


    I think you're confusing alot of things and once again your referring to "T" and "F", which as I'll say again have absolutely nothing to do with eachother. If you have Fi you use Te, not Fe. If you have Ti you use Fe not Te.

    You cannot be "good" at both Fe and Fi.

    Fe is closer to Te in how it works than it is to Fi.
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  22. #22
    Creepy-male

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    In the immortal words of David Byrne...

    "You keep talking! But you're not saying anything!"

    By virtue of the way Model A is constructed, if you're strong in one part of the S/N and T/F dichotomies, you're inherently weak in the other. Sensers have weak intuition, logicals have weak ethics.

    The Id, unless I've really missed something, are things that you are naturally aware of, but place as secondary to your Ego motivations. Yes, ok, I can help an ILE light up, but I'd much rather plumb an IEE's perception of the playground's social map.

    The simple fact is, XEEs are not emotionless borgs. It may be hard to believe, but this is the case.

    EDIT

    Archon, our entire interaction can be summed up in this three-line dialogue.

    "I'm confused."
    "K. Easy. You're wrong--here's the right way."
    *sizzle*

    You haven't noticed that there is, perhaps, a communication breakdown between us? At all?

  23. #23
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    First of all I do not go by Model A, my interpretations are closer to Model X

    Secondly, you are not understanding that Fi, in no way, shape, or form, has a monopoly on percieving "social maps." (a social map is an example of static fields, which once again, can be viewed internally or externally)

    Lastly.... Fe != emotions. We can see the Internal dynamics of people, by way of "emotes," but emotions are something that everyone has.

    "internal Paths" is more akin to percieving the.... umm... "The fluxuating inner soul/essense of people."
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  24. #24
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    Tank's frustration is rising...

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    First of all I do not go by Model A, my interpretations are closer to Model X
    That's cool. I don't. Welcome to the way I understand socionics.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Secondly, you are not understanding that Fi, in no way, shape, or form, has a monopoly on percieving "social maps." (a social map is an example of static fields, which once again, can be viewed internally or externally)
    Did I ever say this? Quotes and relevant evidence, 500 words, due Friday.

    You know, communicating is the first and most important part in communication. Sorry if this wasn't obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Lastly.... Fe != emotions
    My God! He's got it!

    EDIT

    By now, it must surely seems as if I'm violently resistant to changing my typing.

    Not so, I just want you to talk my language, Mister Archon Man.
    Last edited by male; 02-21-2009 at 09:16 PM.

  25. #25
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    yeah lol I was a little scared by your wordies.


    Okay.

    "The world I'm "plugged in to" is emotional. Emotional signals are what personally stand out to me, and I understand them easily and intuitively."

    That right there is something an Ne ENTp would do because they have an Fe agenda.

    An Ne ENTp (by model X) has Ne for mode (your main way of seeing things. You basically become the element) and your agenda is something which catches your interest and you use it like a "plaything".

    So Ne ENTp's become the Ne, jumping all around the fing place, quickly changing their minds, changing topics, bringing up new topics, and basically going from Ne "node" to Ne "node"

    But their Fe agenda makes them especially interested in (This is where I think you are becoming confuzzled) playing around with, experimenting, and examine how people are feeling, the moods of those around you, inner passions, etc.
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  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    it's good to know you're reading the wiki.
    And then some

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    well by subjective/objective, i don't just mean the source. a lot of Delta communication will be first-person, because Delta interests are localized, hands-on and diverse. i think textbook facts are more Democratic and intuitive Gamma Te.

    Beta NF tend to interest themselves in "deeper" meanings, even beneath general health and relationships. i think Freud's inclination towards interpreting first-person feedback as hidden anxieties is a good example. intuition perceives what others may not. but Ne is more easily recognized once it's been pointed out.
    That's a point towards Delta NF then. I prefer the Si approach to the surface, subjective "hit" to situations. That's why I love this anime. (Mushi-shi)

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    i would say you seem to seek logics more than you seem necessarily weak at them, which could be mistaken for something else. intuitive and Ne/Si thinkers are more collaborative in coming to a conclusion. intuitives may be self-deprecating (though usually in other ways.) i couldn't say directly whether your ethics are strong or weak yet.
    Well, being Fi-sub could possibly explain why I'm less tentative about using them, even if it's a godawful strain that I don't particularly seek out on a regular basis.

    I'd also attribute it to being a desperate cry for Te.

    Especially with how I'm interacting with Archon,

    "This is how I understand this thing... what's right, and what's wrong?"
    "Umm, yeah. Everything. The entire way you look at it--oh, btw, can I interest you in buying some encyclopedias?"

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    Beta NF tend to see themselves as an exception to the system they need implemented around themselves, and it's someone else who determines that system to be better than the alternatives. overall though, i think IEE instead is plausible.
    I'd rather not change the status quo, just extrude myself from it. This is consistent with Delta subdued Se/Ti, yeah?

    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    yeah lol I was a little scared by your wordies.


    Okay.

    "The world I'm "plugged in to" is emotional. Emotional signals are what personally stand out to me, and I understand them easily and intuitively."

    That right there is something an Ne ENTp would do because they have an Fe agenda.

    An Ne ENTp (by model X) has Ne for mode (your main way of seeing things. You basically become the element) and your agenda is something which catches your interest and you use it like a "plaything".

    So Ne ENTp's become the Ne, jumping all around the fing place, quickly changing their minds, changing topics, bringing up new topics, and basically going from Ne "node" to Ne "node"

    But their Fe agenda makes them especially interested in (This is where I think you are becoming confuzzled) playing around with, experimenting, and examine how people are feeling, the moods of those around you, inner passions, etc.
    *phew*

    Thanks!

    How would an IEE operate under Model X, then? And how does that apply to intertype relations?

    For the record:

    Posting for me is one of a few reasons

    1) Random new ideas. "Sowing the seeds" so to speak.
    2) Being silly, but not in a serious way... if that makes sense at all.
    4) Endless game of manhole, putting out fires where I see them (Nine thing).
    3) Trying to get other people to prune the insect-infested swamp that is my mind.

  27. #27
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    actually that's probably a cry for Ti. You want to understand my system and integrate it or destoy it.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

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  28. #28
    Creepy-male

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    Well of course you would. You just want me to be your dual or mirage! Not going to happen!

  29. #29
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    wai wat?

    Im saying you are Ne ENTp. Im Ti ENTp.

    I know you are my identical lol


    Although you could be Fe ISFp. Then you'd be Fe mode and Ne agenda.

    But me thinks Ne mode.
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

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  30. #30
    Creepy-male

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    *sigh*

    And here we get in to the old patterns again.

    I disagree with you

    Your Ne is insufficient!

  31. #31
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    stfu you geeks. Go outside and live what little life you have in your fragile bodies.
    D-SEI 9w1

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  32. #32
    Creepy-male

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    Fragile my ass.

    You want to fight me?

  33. #33
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Bring it you dag!
    D-SEI 9w1

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  34. #34
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamajama View Post
    stfu you geeks. Go outside and live what little life you have in your fragile bodies.

    okay lol
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

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  35. #35
    Creepy-male

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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    okay lol
    Victim D;

  36. #36
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon View Post
    Victim D;

    I was thinkin that when I typed it lol.

    But also I was goin on a walk anyways.
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  37. #37
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    I was thinkin that when I typed it lol.

    But also I was goin on a walk anyways.
    I am glad you heeded my words. How was the walk?
    D-SEI 9w1

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  38. #38
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    pretty fucking good. Listened to some RUSH.
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  39. #39
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    What about BIRFDAY MASSKRE??
    D-SEI 9w1

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  40. #40
    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    yeah dude actually I started listening to them =O
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