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Thread: Repost of "Difference between S/N and j/p" by Kuro

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    Default Repost of "Difference between S/N and j/p" by Kuro

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro
    Thanks to people helped me in "What is my type" topic, now I find one confusing point in socionics. It is said that, judging means applying meanings upon words, while to perception words are just words - words exist for its own sake. For me, I think this should be something belong to N/S. Or I'm mixing things up? Are there any professionals out here who can help me clear things up? Thank you very much.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    The only professional I know of is Rick - the rest of us just think about Socionics a lot. It's absurd to think that Sensors can't tell what words mean. That sentence alone should show you what I meant by "meaning." "Meaning" can mean several things, though: it can mean the things that aren't clear-cut (Intuition and Feeling); it can mean the type's abstract function (See what Smilingeyes says about abstract and concrete); and it can mean the information carried by symbols (which is what I was relating to Judging). It may have other uses as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd
    Neither of those things have to do with judging. And yeah, Rick is the only professional here. IMO, though, I think Niffweed as well as Expat explain these things very well, though they tend to hang around on the socionics workshop (but then again, so does Rick...so), but that may just be me speaking from the communication style that suits my understanding. edit: Okay, I see what you are saying and I will revise my statement and say that there is some relation to those things and judging and perceiving and the assertion is more or less correct, but I guess I meant they were not the defining characteristics, but I suppose they can be considered frequent traits, so yeah. My bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    Rick is a hobbyist with connections to certain Russian thinkers on socionics, not a professional himself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro
    Thanks to people helped me in "What is my type" topic, now I find one confusing point in socionics. It is said that, judging means applying meanings upon words, while to perception words are just words - words exist for its own sake. For me, I think this should be something belong to N/S. Or I'm mixing things up? Are there any professionals out here who can help me clear things up? Thank you very much.
    Completely simply, judgers talk about what they do/are going to do. Perceivers talk about what they would like to do/may do. It's just the same thing in different words. I personally don't see it as the be all and end all, ergo what they do in every situation, but as you get to know them, this is typically a preferred line of thought in my humble experience. Take out this what you will, meaning, if you like it cool, if you don't, that's cool too
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle
    There are very few "experts" here as socionics originated in the former Soviet Union and socionics institutions are there. As to your question, I dislike using dichotomies and this is one of the reasons why. If you think about it long enough, you may get the notion that such a claim about the judging functions can be made, but it does not transfer into the real world in a clearly observable way. Put simply, you can make no observations, either objective or subjective, about real individuals based on "judging...applying meaning to words." Even if a general tendency existed, there are definite and obvious counterexamples and instances where such a statement is clearly false. Socionics allows one to stop looking at dichotomies, which are the reason why MBTI is faulty, and instead focus on IM elements and functions. So far, what I have been doing is taking the information you have provided and trying to see how it would fit into Model A.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    I was actually referring to Judging/Perceiving functions, not j/p in individuals (which I would rather call Rational/Irrational). Rational types are Judging-Accepting (always Judging at some level) and Perceiving-Creative (perceiving in bursts, or as needed). Irrational types are the other way around - Perceiving-Accepting and Judging-Creative.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Hey poster, just some more info for you fwiw, the dichotomies are used extensively on Russian forums, and by Russian socionists themselves. Indeed, the preferred mode of typing on Russian forums, that I at least have seen, are by dichotomies. On that: there is some discrepency on socionic dichotomies and MBTI dichotomies. The dichotomies aren't used on this site pretty much, but, if you wish to use them, at least you know the are used in Russia extensively, where socionics originated from, so in that respect, to use them, or just your own view of them (if you like them), you're "good to go", i'd say :-). Edit: I've seen Rick use them too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro
    I don't mean to split things into just 2 categories. But if people make up two pairs of functions, there must be difference right? Otherwise we just need one pair of them! At least there are some difference between these two pairs right? I want to know the difference, or else the whole theory socionics will look totally nonsense to me. The thing is, I know that socionics make some sense but just I don't understand - that's why I'm here. And what I mean by professionals is people who really know socionics well. Not talking about having a certificate or something like that. Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kensi
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro
    It is said that, judging means applying meanings upon words, while to perception words are just words - words exist for its own sake.
    sorry to say so, but this does not make sense..words are nothing without meaning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by aixelsyd
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Hey poster, just some more info for you fwiw, the dichotomies are used extensively on Russian forums, and by Russian socionists themselves. Indeed, the preferred mode of typing on Russian forums, that I at least have seen, are by dichotomies. On that: there is some discrepency on socionic dichotomies and MBTI dichotomies. The dichotomies aren't used on this site pretty much, but, if you wish to use them, at least you know the are used in Russia extensively, where socionics originated from, so in that respect, to use them, or just your own view of them (if you like them), you're "good to go", i'd say :-). Edit: I've seen Rick use them too.
    Yes. And again, I would recommend Rick, Niffweed, and Expat (I'm not saying they are the only ones but have been the ones who have impressed me the most with their understanding and ability to contextualize and explain socionics in a thorough, coherent manner.).
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle
    Quote Originally Posted by Kuro
    I don't mean to split things into just 2 categories. But if people make up two pairs of functions, there must be difference right? Otherwise we just need one pair of them! At least there are some difference between these two pairs right? I want to know the difference, or else the whole theory socionics will look totally nonsense to me. The thing is, I know that socionics make some sense but just I don't understand - that's why I'm here.
    There are distinctions, but few can definitively tell you what they are. Even fewer actually have what they say apply to the real world. There are no easily discernible ways to tell between a rational and an irrational (although some will say there are). Quasi-identities, who differ in just the rationality/irrationality dichotomy, are very hard to tell apart. They share common interests, common hobbies, and even ways of thinking. They can describe the things they like and dislike in very similar ways. The problem with dichotomies is that they are a) subjective and b) if you do not know what to look for and do not relate them to Model A, you can conclude almost anything. For English speaking experts, the socionics workshop would probably have who you are looking for. It is frequented by veterans such as Rick (mentioned above) more often than this site.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gulanzon
    Quote Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle
    Quasi-identities, who differ in just the rationality/irrationality dichotomy, are very hard to tell apart.
    I think you mean Mirrors. Don't you? At least, I don't find my Quasi-Identicals anything like me. EDIT Ok. So I only know one... and my typing methods are probably awful (listen to people in conversation, see which elements they seem to communicate the most)... And the fact that they're from opposite quadras... but I guess that's not a dichotomy, is it!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand
    Mirrors differ in E/I as well. I like to substitute Static/Dynamic for Rational/Irrational in my own thoughts - the dichotomy seems slightly more meaningful.
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