Repost of "Indicisive on both T/F and j/p" by Kuro

[tereg]

Hi everyone. I come here through sites of MBTI. I have a problem in identifying both my MBTI type and socionics type. As a matter of fact, for people who know Enneagram as well, I cannot decide whether I am 4w5 or 5w4 too. What I am sure is that, I am definitely an IN (which Jung described as losers in his book *sigh*). I may not be extremely introverted, but I am sure my iNtuition function is at the extreme end... And that's all what I know about myself. Maybe I should provide some information about myself. What makes me really confuse about my type is that, I love arts, like drawing, singing, writing. At the same time, science fascinated me, I especially love Maths and Physics (thanks to my N function). I think I have great emotional depth, but I hear people comment me as aloof more than once. Also, I don't absolutely screen out all emotional expressions - I'm willing to show the positive ones, but I just cannot cry in front of people. I am indecisive on T/F. According to wikipedia (it may be wrong), if one cannot decide on T/F, then that person may be a p. But I think one statement describe me very good in the Alpha group - the smile and laughter of people I love is very important to me. But, only those I love. Thank you very much. Please feel free to ask if you want more informations...

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[tereg]

I'd suggest INTj, based on what you've said so far. I wouldn't agree that indecision about T/F makes you a p; around here, if one of your functions (in this case N) is easier to determine, we call that your "subtype."

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[tereg]

Well... I won't say no to INTj, but I want to know what exactly makes you think in this way. I really appreciate comments with elaboration and arguments with reasoning. And what exactly is the j / p function in socionics? I know in MBTI J/P about your preference on whether have the choice made or leave it open. I would really say I'm the later one because I always feel stressed when I'm asked to decide something (in both big and trivial stuff). I don't know what exactly it is in socionics because I find different definition on j/p stuff across a lot of sites... I want to make things clear. Thanks anyway.

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[tereg]

Hi everyone. I come here through sites of MBTI. I have a problem in identifying both my MBTI type and socionics type. As a matter of fact, for people who know Enneagram as well, I cannot decide whether I am 4w5 or 5w4 too. What I am sure is that, I am definitely an IN (which Jung described as losers in his book *sigh*). I may not be extremely introverted, but I am sure my iNtuition function is at the extreme end... And that's all what I know about myself. Maybe I should provide some information about myself. What makes me really confuse about my type is that, I love arts, like drawing, singing, writing. At the same time, science fascinated me, I especially love Maths and Physics (thanks to my N function). I think I have great emotional depth, but I hear people comment me as aloof more than once. Also, I don't absolutely screen out all emotional expressions - I'm willing to show the positive ones, but I just cannot cry in front of people. I am indecisive on T/F. According to wikipedia (it may be wrong), if one cannot decide on T/F, then that person may be a p. But I think one statement describe me very good in the Alpha group - the smile and laughter of people I love is very important to me. But, only those I love. Thank you very much. Please feel free to ask if you want more informations...

Okay, before you get slapped down by everyone here, I'd suggest reading posts on this forum, searching around for a variety of socionics sites, etc. For instance, the four letter dichotomies are extremely misleading and none of what you said makes much sense for finding your type. Any type can be interested in Math and physics. Being Ni or Ne does not at all guarrantee interest or proficiency in these subjects.

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[tereg]

Okay, before you get slapped down by everyone here, I'd suggest reading posts on this forum, searching around for a variety of socionics sites, etc. For instance, the four letter dichotomies are extremely misleading and none of what you said makes much sense for finding your type. Any type can be interested in Math and physics. Being Ni or Ne does not at all guarrantee interest or proficiency in these subjects.

lol great. I did that and that's why I have to post here. Because I cannot find anything useful for me to really understand the whole concept. wiki helped a lot though. Well, I actually know those stuff can help nothing in determining my type. That's why I welcome questions. You know, if I don't write something in there, it sounds really rude asking for service while I don't provide at least some information at all. I know lots of type can love Maths and Physics, but I myself observe a tendency that most N(T) loves these 2 subjects so... I hope I didn't sound like the relationship is absolute. Posting and asking for help is really the last thing I want to do. The information circulating on the internet is too confusing that I don't know which is correct and which is wrong. That's why I have to ask for clarify. If I know my type, then I can at least know how the functions that I have are like. Thank you very much anyway.

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[tereg]

Well... I won't say no to INTj, but I want to know what exactly makes you think in this way. I really appreciate comments with elaboration and arguments with reasoning. And what exactly is the j / p function in socionics? I know in MBTI J/P about your preference on whether have the choice made or leave it open. I would really say I'm the later one because I always feel stressed when I'm asked to decide something (in both big and trivial stuff). I don't know what exactly it is in socionics because I find different definition on j/p stuff across a lot of sites... I want to make things clear. Thanks anyway.

OK. You're very sure that you're IN, so I'll take that as given. You also consider yourself Alpha. INTj is the only Alpha IN. You seem to have some difficulty showing emotions, but that doesn't mean that you're adverse to them. That strikes me as in the superid (although it's no guarantee), and INTj is the only IN with in the superid. I've never found j/p very clear myself... I prefer to work around it with stuff like quadras and functions. There's not much point in me giving you my favorite definition, since I'll just disagree with have the sites you read and get you more confused.

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[tereg]

I suggest reading this: Smilexian Socionics Smilexian Socionics is almost unknown outside this forum, but I've found it very helpful.

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[tereg]

I suggest reading this: Smilexian Socionics Smilexian Socionics is almost unknown outside this forum, but I've found it very helpful.

Or as I like to call it, the (d)roller coaster. It's dense stuff, but, who knows, maybe that's up your alley, Kuro.

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[tereg]

a bunch of socionics type descriptions: http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...e_descriptions IEI = INFp ILI = INTp EII = INFj LII = INTj

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[tereg]

I wouldn't agree that indecision about T/F makes you a p; around here, if one of your functions (in this case N) is easier to determine, we call that your "subtype."

I wouldn't disagree with this, and the part about this forum is definitely true, but I would question the statement's validity. Generally, yes, anyone can love math and physics, but math and physics are almost pure constructs, especially the experimental side of them. It does not mean that every type will like them, but it means that the type of thought process that constructed them was mostly . Likewise, you are also interested in the arts, which can reflect any type. However, the majority of art, what we think of as art, and especially singing and drawing require . You probably value both and . The hard part is differentiating which you are good at. For example, if you are an ethical guy, you might have spent a good part of your life seeming logical. MBTI-wise, I'd bet you'd test as logical or have a logical/ethical divide. I have seen the opposite happen with logical girls being more emotionally expressive and uninhibited. I think that societal notions are definitely a factor and major influence on personality. Also, while I remember, I would leave MBTI conceptions, especially of the dichotomies, behind. Some people may disagree, but they get in the way and cannot be thought of as valid evidence in socionics. I do not know of a certain, 100%, error-proof way of saying if you have strong or . Doing which of the two activities (science or the arts), do you feel that you would be more receptive to help? Which do you generate and look at in everyday discussion and which is more for personal enjoyment and relaxation (I understand that the arts is not an always viable career option, but the question stands)?

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[tereg]

I suggest reading this: Smilexian Socionics Smilexian Socionics is almost unknown outside this forum, but I've found it very helpful.

Thanks for your explanation and the link. That's interesting, and in fact it is detailed and... confusing. I've read two posts in it so far, and now I have a general idea of judging/perception. So, perception means leave something as it is while judging means make a meaning on top of it and take it as truth? Then, for a p, it means a person will try to perceive things as it is while judging will add on his/her own comment / point of view on it? I mean, most of the time because I know most ppl have both function working... It's preference that matters... Then in this case I may be more p, because when people interpreting meaning on some statements, I'll go mad because most of the time, I really mean what I say. And when some people tell me something, I'll just take what s/he said as the truth. I can well differentiate what I think of a statement and what a statement really says. Ah, that's why my mum always go mad on me. When I said "It's hot today", it's just a statement to me, while mum will ask "then why don't you take off your jacket?" lol Is this correct? Can someone tell me so that I know I finally understand something... But I still think Alpha is the closest to me. To be honest, none of the four quadras describe me perfectly, but just Alpha is the closest. Some in the Gamma also sounds plausible to me. Argh It's after learning socionics that I realize I don't know myself at all! Thanks you guys anyway.

.

[tereg]

Hi everyone. I come here through sites of MBTI. I have a problem in identifying both my MBTI type and socionics type. As a matter of fact, for people who know Enneagram as well, I cannot decide whether I am 4w5 or 5w4 too. What I am sure is that, I am definitely an IN (which Jung described as losers in his book *sigh*). I may not be extremely introverted, but I am sure my iNtuition function is at the extreme end... And that's all what I know about myself. Maybe I should provide some information about myself. What makes me really confuse about my type is that, I love arts, like drawing, singing, writing. At the same time, science fascinated me, I especially love Maths and Physics (thanks to my N function). I think I have great emotional depth, but I hear people comment me as aloof more than once. Also, I don't absolutely screen out all emotional expressions - I'm willing to show the positive ones, but I just cannot cry in front of people. I am indecisive on T/F. According to wikipedia (it may be wrong), if one cannot decide on T/F, then that person may be a p. But I think one statement describe me very good in the Alpha group - the smile and laughter of people I love is very important to me. But, only those I love. Thank you very much. Please feel free to ask if you want more informations...

I've been there but I'm not sure how much I can help you. Have you looked at the descriptions on the enneagram blogspot? Those are good and the ones on wikipedia aren't half bad. I would suggest you get a grasp as to what the differences are between Te and Ti as well as Fi and Fe in socionics. The wikisocion is a good place to start. Also, you might want to go to Google Translate and put in 'socionics.org' and translate that and then look at the Balzac and Yessinin descriptions. If you want, you could try and do some vids of yourself if you are so inclined or try to have a good question/answer session here since it's pretty active, but I would not overpass the socionics workshop, either, especially since you can get your own personal forum which you can use to post threads on whatever you want and those threads are restricted to forum members so privacy won't be so much an issue. People will tell you things, but always keep an open mind and try to know yourself first and know the theory well as well. Try to find what comes naturally to you in your own environment. In any case, welcome, and good luck. With the comment on math and physics being more Ti oriented, I do agree with that, but I do understand there are more Te approaches of understanding those subjects. I have seen Ti PoLR types do very well in math and hard sciences but at the same time, they get frustrated with very technical, sequencial explanations for things to where sometimes I have to step in and explain it to them in a more 'common sense' approach and show a way to see it without diving into the logical intricateness of whatever it is and then they would understand it if it was something they otherwise could not grasp. But in my own education, I have seen the differences between how Ti ego teachers and Te ego teachers explained math or whatever, and with the same subject, the former would leave me frustrated (and I would often get lousy grades) and the latter I would be one of the top students. Maybe I should look for examples of Ti and Te (at least in the language of the two) and our newcomer can look and see which is more palpable, though it may result in no further understanding, but I may try it if it will help.

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[tereg]

I wouldn't disagree with this, and the part about this forum is definitely true, but I would question the statement's validity. Generally, yes, anyone can love math and physics, but math and physics are almost pure constructs, especially the experimental side of them. It does not mean that every type will like them, but it means that the type of thought process that constructed them was mostly . Likewise, you are also interested in the arts, which can reflect any type. However, the majority of art, what we think of as art, and especially singing and drawing require . You probably value both and . The hard part is differentiating which you are good at. For example, if you are an ethical guy, you might have spent a good part of your life seeming logical. MBTI-wise, I'd bet you'd test as logical or have a logical/ethical divide. I have seen the opposite happen with logical girls being more emotionally expressive and uninhibited. I think that societal notions are definitely a factor and major influence on personality. Also, while I remember, I would leave MBTI conceptions, especially of the dichotomies, behind. Some people may disagree, but they get in the way and cannot be thought of as valid evidence in socionics. I do not know of a certain, 100%, error-proof way of saying if you have strong or . Doing which of the two activities (science or the arts), do you feel that you would be more receptive to help? Which do you generate and look at in everyday discussion and which is more for personal enjoyment and relaxation (I understand that the arts is not an always viable career option, but the question stands)?

At some point of my life, I had seriously considered taking cartoonist as my career. But where I live is not a good place for a cartoonist to maintain one's living, that means I had to dump this little stupid dream. What's more, I consider my drawing skills as naive and not yet perfect. I will consider that again if I finally think that my drawing skills is sophisticated enough. But singing and drawing will be more like personal interest to me now. I will occasionally discuss some skills involved in singing and drawing... And I'll also compare singers and drawings with certain friends. But this is just an exchange of pov... Science for me... is something I'd like to think and discuss about with other people. And I'd like to have a conclusion at the end. If there aren't any, then at least I have to know that "I don't know the conclusion". Umm... I don't mind having it as my career. Actually I'm taking both Psychology and Maths as major, And I'm considering taking master or even PhD degree of either Psychology or Maths. Umm see, that's one more thing that I cannot decide between T/F. I don't have much problem with Psychology (or else I'm not here). But, I definitely have problem with the other disciplines in social science - sociology, human geography, etc. Maybe I'm more close to T? And I hate the tutorial sessions in social science faculty. They spend (or waste) the first session introducing each other and repeating things like when to hand in assignments, what to do in tutorials which are all printed on the handouts... Sorry I'm whiny on this. Anyway I hate wasting time on useless social interactions like introducing oneself in tutorials, which I suppose to learn something in that precious hour, and how on Earth can I remember every member's name in one hour? They expect I can recognize them after brief mention of their names! So... I don't know. Maybe you can observe something from the above paragraphs so... thanks anyway.

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[tereg]

At some point of my life, I had seriously considered taking cartoonist as my career. But where I live is not a good place for a cartoonist to maintain one's living, that means I had to dump this little stupid dream. What's more, I consider my drawing skills as naive and not yet perfect. I will consider that again if I finally think that my drawing skills is sophisticated enough. But singing and drawing will be more like personal interest to me now. I will occasionally discuss some skills involved in singing and drawing... And I'll also compare singers and drawings with certain friends. But this is just an exchange of pov... Science for me... is something I'd like to think and discuss about with other people. And I'd like to have a conclusion at the end. If there aren't any, then at least I have to know that "I don't know the conclusion". Umm... I don't mind having it as my career. Actually I'm taking both Psychology and Maths as major, And I'm considering shifting from Social Science Faculty to Science Faculty and totally put my attention to Maths. But the process is troublesome so currently I just let it be. Umm see, that's one more thing that I cannot decide between T/F. I don't have much problem with Psychology (or else I'm not here). But, I definitely have problem with the other disciplines in social science - sociology, human geography, etc. Maybe I'm more close to T? And I hate the tutorial sessions in social science faculty. They spend (or waste) the first session introducing each other and repeating things like when to hand in assignments, what to do in tutorials which are all printed on the handouts... Sorry I'm whiny on this. Anyway I hate wasting time on useless social interactions like introducing oneself in tutorials, which I suppose to learn something in that precious hour, and how on Earth can I remember every member's name in one hour? They expect I can recognize them after brief mention of their names! So... I don't know. Maybe you can observe something from the above paragraphs so... thanks anyway.

Well, I just want to make it clear, from what I have found in studying socionics, is that unlike MBTI, it is not as easy as deciding between Thinking and Feeling. Some people may place a heavy emphasis on their estimative/6th/HA function which would be Fi for INTp or Ti for INFp. Knowing whether you digest and think in terms of Te over Ti and vice-versa and Fe over Fi and vice-versa, would require more time learning but would safe-guard, more likely, against type confusion in the future and solidify confidence when faced with misleading suggestions about your type from other people (which is also common.) Just as a friendly bit of insight which you are welcome to disregard at whim, but I'm just saying because socionics can get confusing and like MBTI, can be misleading on certain things.

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[tereg]

I've been there but I'm not sure how much I can help you. Have you looked at the descriptions on the enneagram blogspot? Those are good and the ones on wikipedia aren't half bad. I would suggest you get a grasp as to what the differences are between Te and Ti as well as Fi and Fe in socionics. The wikisocion is a good place to start. Also, you might want to go to Google Translate and put in 'socionics.org' and translate that and then look at the Balzac and Yessinin descriptions. If you want, you could try and do some vids of yourself if you are so inclined or try to have a good question/answer session here since it's pretty active, but I would not overpass the socionics workshop, either, especially since you can get your own personal forum which you can use to post threads on whatever you want and those threads are restricted to forum members so privacy won't be so much an issue. People will tell you things, but always keep an open mind and try to know yourself first and know the theory well as well. Try to find what comes naturally to you in your own environment. In any case, welcome, and good luck. With the comment on math and physics being more Ti oriented, I do agree with that, but I do understand there are more Te approaches of understanding those subjects. I have seen Ti PoLR types do very well in math and hard sciences but at the same time, they get frustrated with very technical, sequencial explanations for things to where sometimes I have to step in and explain it to them in a more 'common sense' approach and show a way to see it without diving into the logical intricateness of whatever it is and then they would understand it if it was something they otherwise could not grasp. But in my own education, I have seen the differences between how Ti ego teachers and Te ego teachers explained math or whatever, and with the same subject, the former would leave me frustrated (and I would often get lousy grades) and the latter I would be one of the top students. Maybe I should look for examples of Ti and Te (at least in the language of the two) and our newcomer can look and see which is more palpable, though it may result in no further understanding, but I may try it if it will help.

Ummm now I get the brief idea of the difference between Ti and Te now... So take Maths as an example, for Te ppl will go into extreme detail of the prove of something, but don't bother to explain why it is so and what does this prove means... While Ti don't have problem following the flow, and can easily get why things go that way and what does proving that means, but feel frustrated when demanded to repeat same troublesome technical prove of it? I hope I have glimpse the idea right. The point is that I have read many stuff on socionics, but they just use rare vocabularies and checking dictionary on every line is a really demanding job. (some background information about me: I'm not an English native speaker, so please forgive my grammar mistakes.) I want some description writing with easy words. Anyway, my greatest problem on this is, sometimes I understand the descriptions, but I cannot find myself in particular one. I know what I am not, but for which I am, I'm confused because I have more than one description that sounds really like me. For Enneagram, I understand the whole structure and I can differentiate between 4 & 5. It's just I don't know where should I put myself. It's a tough job for me. Thanks again anyway.

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[tereg]

Well, I just want to make it clear, from what I have found in studying socionics, is that unlike MBTI, it is not as easy as deciding between Thinking and Feeling. Some people may place a heavy emphasis on their estimative/6th/HA function which would be Fi for INTp or Ti for INFp. Knowing whether you digest and think in terms of Te over Ti and vice-versa and Fe over Fi and vice-versa, would require more time learning but would safe-guard, more likely, against type confusion in the future and solidify confidence when faced with misleading suggestions about your type from other people (which is also common.) Just as a friendly bit of insight which you are welcome to disregard at whim, but I'm just saying because socionics can get confusing and like MBTI, can be misleading on certain things.

Yes I'm totally confused by different stuff found on the internet. I wanted to know which is the correct one. Say, the correct definition of each function should make good prediction on certain people's behaviour, and who act consistently with the description of that type. So a theory is correct if it makes good description (is coherent with observation). That what I want. But what now I have in hand is quite confusing and I can't figure out which match my observation. At least I cannot find one that match myself. I assume that I know what I am, so if I know my type, then I can figure out the rest, right? And I can apply it to else where and learn how to cope with people better... So that's why I'm here. I want to make things clear too. If you're asking which function I can use without difficulty, I may say I can quite easily understand the concept of one thing, almost without using any energy to do so. What's seems difficult to me is the lengthy prove of one thing. Once I read the prove I'll forget the whole deduction sequence and take what I've learnt as what I know. Umm I can make moral judgement (something belong to Fi) but I'm handicapped in understanding what others feel. I mean I know I should pet or even hug some girls when they're crying, but as long as there are no tears, I will regard his/her emotional state as stable. Fe... Umm What's that? ROFL I can make people laugh, but just in one-on-one occasions. If I attempt to make a joke which I expect all members in a big group to laugh, I will probably fail and what I get as feedback is, silence. Thanks anyway. I'm fuzzy I know.

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[tereg]

What you said does not tell me much. Your doubt of your drawing skills can probably be linked to weak sensing, which if true would confirm you as an intuiter. Honestly, I cannot draw from it more than that. Socionics type is best determined through "why?": what is it about something that makes you like it or hate it. That said, I think your choice is between LII and IEI. I would give a rundown of their differences, but I think these two types can be very similar in certain circumstances.

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[tereg]

What you said does not tell me much. Your doubt of your drawing skills can probably be linked to weak sensing, which if true would confirm you as an intuiter. Honestly, I cannot draw from it more than that. Socionics type is best determined through "why?": what is it about something that makes you like it or hate it. That said, I think your choice is between LII and IEI. I would give a rundown of their differences, but I think these two types can be very similar in certain circumstances.

So, socionics is like Enneagram, it's about motivation, but not behaviour. Good. But dah, what I can observe from people is just behaviour! *sigh* Why? Why I like science? I don't know. Maybe because it is about seeking an universal truth, which I would like to join the parade. And Why I like Arts? I'm not sure. Maybe because it provide me something that science cannot. It speaks for universal truth on humanity, but not just physical universe. It also allows creativity. I enjoy appreciating some new elements in certain Arts. Or it's just because I enjoy the feeling of losing my sense of self while engaging Art. Actually I love reading detective stories and I regard that as part of Arts as well. I appreciate how the writer surprise me with sufficient tips presented in front of me, which I choose to ignore when reading the story. Maybe this helps... Thanks. I'm really fuzzy.

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[tereg]

Thanks for your explanation and the link. That's interesting, and in fact it is detailed and... confusing. I've read two posts in it so far, and now I have a general idea of judging/perception. So, perception means leave something as it is while judging means make a meaning on top of it and take it as truth? Then, for a p, it means a person will try to perceive things as it is while judging will add on his/her own comment / point of view on it? I mean, most of the time because I know most ppl have both function working... It's preference that matters...

That sounds about right. Everyone does both, and I think it actually has less to do with which you prefer to do overall (because you're pretty much forced to do one or the other depending on the situation), and more to do with which you combine with other behavior (such as focusing on yourself vs. focusing on the outside world). For instance, an INTj would combine seeing things as they are with learning things directly form the world, and combine reflecting on his own thoughts with assigning relationships between those thoughts. On the other hand, an INFp would do it the opposite way: see themselves and their own thoughts as they are, and identify truths in the outside world. In light of this, I figure:

• An EP function observes
• An IJ function reflects
• An IP function reacts
• An EJ function controls

And your temperament is the one you do continually, sort of automatically. I'd even say that it's the only one you can do without doing any of the others at the same time. (Sorry, I found myself thinking that through, and I had to put it somewhere)

Then in this case I may be more p, because when people interpreting meaning on some statements, I'll go mad because most of the time, I really mean what I say. And when some people tell me something, I'll just take what s/he said as the truth. I can well differentiate what I think of a statement and what a statement really says. Ah, that's why my mum always go mad on me. When I said "It's hot today", it's just a statement to me, while mum will ask "then why don't you take off your jacket?" lol Is this correct? Can someone tell me so that I know I finally understand something...

No, I think p stops earlier than that. The p functions would identify the words, and perhaps things about how they were said, but wouldn't assign any meaning at all - not even the literal meaning. It's your judging function that figures out that "It's hot today" means that the temperature is high. To the perceiving function, those are just words.

But I still think Alpha is the closest to me. To be honest, none of the four quadras describe me perfectly, but just Alpha is the closest. Some in the Gamma also sounds plausible to me. Argh It's after learning socionics that I realize I don't know myself at all! Thanks you guys anyway.

Yes, I still think you're INTj.

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[tereg]

What you said does not tell me much. Your doubt of your drawing skills can probably be linked to weak sensing, which if true would confirm you as an intuiter. Honestly, I cannot draw from it more than that. Socionics type is best determined through "why?": what is it about something that makes you like it or hate it. That said, I think your choice is between LII and IEI. I would give a rundown of their differences, but I think these two types can be very similar in certain circumstances.

Drawing skills identify nothing, I will go on to say. Even sensors will likely have trouble drawing things as they really see them and intuitives can learn to see and draw things as well sensors can, so it is irrelevant information. From what little I have read, I still think IxI, but I am personally leaning on IEI from very little, but I think you should take my opinion with a huge grain of salt, but you might want to look into that and see how much more sense that makes than ILI, but it is a hunch, I just have nothing to make a good idea off of because some things, especially examining from external behavior and the thing about providing information seems more ILI-ish to me, so... And yeah, not being a native English speaker will limit how much I can help. And again, any type can love math, physics, art, whatever and be good at it. It's more as to how you approach those things. A good thing to test out is to see how YOU would teach people, generally, a certain area of interest that you know something about or are good at.

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[tereg]

No, I think p stops earlier than that. The p functions would identify the words, and perhaps things about how they were said, but wouldn't assign any meaning at all - not even the literal meaning. It's your judging function that figures out that "It's hot today" means that the temperature is high. To the perceiving function, those are just words. Yes, I still think you're INTj.

Uh thanks. Yes now I have come to the same conclusion with yours. I finally identify myself as LII after I read the female profile of it. But the funny thing is, I found the topics Alpha group in this forum a bit... umm... too casual for me? I like surfing the Gamma group. Is this weird? And I'm a bit confusing here. Leaving words just words and make meaning upon words... I see this as difference between N and S. What is the difference between the pairs N/S and j/p then? Or should I open a new topic in somewhere else on this?

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[tereg]

And yeah, not being a native English speaker will limit how much I can help.

It's not my fault. *sigh* But I promise English is the secondary language in where I live. At least I understand the whole series Harry Potter. But understanding a novel is different with handling conversations. I know. *sigh* Please ask for clarification if you find my words confusing.

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[tereg]

I understand you fine, it's more of a concern if I explain in a way that is too confusing. I read machine translated Russian just fine (outside of common speak), so that's not the issue, but if I were to present what I see as samples of Ti vs. Te, maybe the differences that I am trying to point out between the two thought processes that go with each one might not be as apparent. I can only speak one language fluently/coherently, so it's not that.

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[tereg]

I understand you fine, it's more of a concern if I explain in a way that is too confusing. I read machine translated Russian just fine (outside of common speak), so that's not the issue, but if I were to present what I see as samples of Ti vs. Te, maybe the differences that I am trying to point out between the two thought processes that go with each one might not be as apparent. I can only speak one language fluently/coherently, so it's not that.

Just try, please.

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[tereg]

Uh thanks. Yes now I have come to the same conclusion with yours. I finally identify myself as LII after I read the female profile of it. But the funny thing is, I found the topics Alpha group in this forum a bit... umm... too casual for me? I like surfing the Gamma group. Is this weird? And I'm a bit confusing here. Leaving words just words and make meaning upon words... I see this as difference between N and S. What is the difference between the pairs N/S and j/p then? Or should I open a new topic in somewhere else on this?

I sometimes find myself annoying other Alphas by taking an extremely logical perspective when they just want to be silly, so it isn't just you. Well, "making meaning" can mean a lot of things... it's true of N/S in a way, but the way I meant it, it makes no sense for it to be specific to some people, since it's necessary to communication. This does deserve a new topic, yes.

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[tereg]

Sorry to bring this up again. Actually EII sounds pretty close to me as well. But after I read their domain page (in wikisocion) I think I'm more LII anyway. I love the sense of humour in LII domain page (and I understand them! lol). I find it hard to understand why in ILI domain page it says the one of LII especially sucks. Or it's just a joke? And crying for help. Do anyone eventually know MBTI as well? I was typed INFP but the profiles go awfully wrong on me. But before dismissing the possibility, I want to know whether there is some chance that if I'm an INTj in socionics, I may be INFX in MBTI? Thanks everyone.

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[tereg]

Sorry to bring this up again. Actually EII sounds pretty close to me as well. But after I read their domain page (in wikisocion) I think I'm more LII anyway. I love the sense of humour in LII domain page (and I understand them! lol). I find it hard to understand why in ILI domain page it says the one of LII especially sucks. Or it's just a joke? And crying for help. Do anyone eventually know MBTI as well? I was typed INFP but the profiles go awfully wrong on me. But before dismissing the possibility, I want to know whether there is some chance that if I'm an INTj in socionics, I may be INFX in MBTI? Thanks everyone.

The ILI domain is mostly humor... I'd take anything on it as a joke. You're female, right? Women frequently act like Feelers even when Thinkers... I think societal expectations do that. Also, the j/p dichotomy is even more muddled between MBTI and Socionics for Introverts (hence the much-disputed J/P switch). So, a female INTj typing as MBTI INFp is understandable.

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[tereg]

The ILI domain is mostly humor... I'd take anything on it as a joke. You're female, right? Women frequently act like Feelers even when Thinkers... I think societal expectations do that. Also, the j/p dichotomy is even more muddled between MBTI and Socionics for Introverts (hence the much-disputed J/P switch). So, a female INTj typing as MBTI INFp is understandable.

Can't understand their humour. Yup, I'm biologically female. Understandable, but the profile don't really suits me. And something else suits me better, but I'm afraid that I would choose it because it sounds cool. Just want to find who I really am. Don't want to just look cool. Phew, maybe I should go back to calculus. Things aren't too firm in Psychology.

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[tereg]

Can't understand their humour. Yup, I'm biologically female. Understandable, but the profile don't really suits me. And something else suits me better, but I'm afraid that I would choose it because it sounds cool. Just want to find who I really am. Don't want to just look cool. Phew, maybe I should go back to calculus. Things aren't too firm in Psychology.

Then maybe we should just say the MBTI test was wrong. A few users have suggested that your Myers-Briggs type and your Socionic type are the same thing, and if they seem different, the MB Type Indicator must have messed up. I've also heard that your MBTI type is by definition whatever the test says it is. Take it whichever way suits you. I personally use MBTI only as a foundation to explain Socionics.

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[Kuro]

Then maybe we should just say the MBTI test was wrong. A few users have suggested that your Myers-Briggs type and your Socionic type are the same thing, and if they seem different, the MB Type Indicator must have messed up. I've also heard that your MBTI type is by definition whatever the test says it is. Take it whichever way suits you. I personally use MBTI only as a foundation to explain Socionics.

Nah I don't think we can say that MBTI test is wrong. The weird thing is that I sometimes get INFP sometimes INTP sometimes INTJ and sometimes INFJ. If tests say everything then I'll be the 4 types at the same time. But... How come?

Actually I'm crossed because of the people there keep typing me as INFP because they observed Fi, but dare not ask any Qs about my Ti. And no one is making a conclusion with any good reason, or matching my trait into the MBTI system. I read a few books on MBTI so I believe that it makes some sense. At least when Jung wrote his <<Psychological Type>> it makes sense.

And I have a hard time with the definition of T / F. I asked and no one there gives me a good one that provide a really distinctive difference between that 2. =/

Ummm I'm just whining. Sorry for that.

[Brilliand]

Nah I don't think we can say that MBTI test is wrong. The weird thing is that I sometimes get INFP sometimes INTP sometimes INTJ and sometimes INFJ. If tests say everything then I'll be the 4 types at the same time. But... How come?

Actually I'm crossed because of the people there keep typing me as INFP because they observed Fi, but dare not ask any Qs about my Ti. And no one is making a conclusion with any good reason, or matching my trait into the MBTI system. I read a few books on MBTI so I believe that it makes some sense. At least when Jung wrote his <<Psychological Type>> it makes sense.

And I have a hard time with the definition of T / F. I asked and no one there gives me a good one that provide a really distinctive difference between that 2. =/

Ummm I'm just whining. Sorry for that.

INFP=INFj, at least in any context where observing Fi is a sign that you're INFP.

I'd summarize that as Thinking=logic and Feeling=people. I don't think Smilingeyes explained that one very well... Wikisocion has a decent description.

Also try these Reinin dichotomies:
http://forums.intpcentral.com/showth...t=12744&page=2

There's enough dichotomies there that we can tell whether their result is meaningful or not based on whether your choices are consistent with each other (certain combinations of dichotomies logically imply others).

[Kuro]

INFP=INFj, at least in any context where observing Fi is a sign that you're INFP.

I think what I should do is to open a new thread on this. =/

I cannot solve the myth of XXXP = XXXj or XXXJ = XXXp. Say, in socionics, ps have their N/S function more obvious and js have T/F function more obvious. While in MBTI, J means you like to make decision and P means you like to leave options open. OK, if you like to make decision, which means you will use T/F more. So... shouldn't these two system look the same?

Ethical types

1. More social, people-oriented
2. More inclined to obvious friendliness or hostility
3. More expressive body language and facial expressions
4. Tend to prefer persuasion over argumentation
5. More strong and controlled emotionality
6. More vulnerable to "logical" manipulation (being told false information, ...) and resistant to ethical

Logical types

1. More logical, task-oriented
2. More inclined to reserved composure and emotional neutrality
3. May have either "logical" body-language or none at all
4. Tend to prefer argumentation over persuasion
5. More emotionally unsure, may have exaggerated emotional response when dealing with situations
6. More vulnerable to "ethical" manipulation (flattery, ...) and resistant to logical

I will say yes to all the statements bold-ed above. This is what makes me really really hard to type myself between T/F. If there is a reason that I choose F, because I have feeling anyway. But if I choose T, it's because I tend to criticize anything I see / hear / read in the first instant. Hard case, me, hum?

One more to note: actually in the function test I taken, both Ti and Fi scored 47.x %. Ti just exceeded Fi for 0.3 %, so I don't think this can help me type myself. =/

Thanks still. If I were you I must have lost my temper so far. <- impatient guy

[Brilliand]

I think what I should do is to open a new thread on this. =/

I cannot solve the myth of XXXP = XXXj or XXXJ = XXXp. Say, in socionics, ps have their N/S function more obvious and js have T/F function more obvious. While in MBTI, J means you like to make decision and P means you like to leave options open. OK, if you like to make decision, which means you will use T/F more. So... shouldn't these two system look the same?

When MBTI describes the functions, they base the J/P dichotomy on your extraverted ego element, not your dominant function as Socionics does. This results in the "J/P switch" where J=p and P=j for introverts.

As another user has noted... whether your extraverted ego element is judging or perceiving is the Static/Dynamic dichotomy: whether you think in discrete steps or in a continuous stream.

I will say yes to all the statements bold-ed above. This is what makes me really really hard to type myself between T/F. If there is a reason that I choose F, because I have feeling anyway. But if I choose T, it's because I tend to criticize anything I see / hear / read in the first instant. Hard case, me, hum?

Based purely on this paragraph, I suggest a Negativist Feeler type. Criticizing first doesn't make you Thinking - it's how you criticize.

INTp and INTj are negativist types; INFp and INFj are positivist types. So, my above suggestion is inconsistent. However, I suggest having a look at the Static/Dynamic and Negativist/Positivist Reinin dichotomies - INTp is dynamic negativist, INTj is static positivist, INFj is static negativist, and INFp is dynamic positivist.

[Kuro]

When MBTI describes the functions, they base the J/P dichotomy on your extraverted ego element, not your dominant function as Socionics does. This results in the "J/P switch" where J=p and P=j for introverts.

As another user has noted... whether your extraverted ego element is judging or perceiving is the Static/Dynamic dichotomy: whether you think in discrete steps or in a continuous stream.



Based purely on this paragraph, I suggest a Negativist Feeler type. Criticizing first doesn't make you Thinking - it's how you criticize.

INTp and INTj are negativist types; INFp and INFj are positivist types. So, my above suggestion is inconsistent. However, I suggest having a look at the Static/Dynamic and Negativist/Positivist Reinin dichotomies - INTp is dynamic negativist, INTj is static positivist, INFj is static negativist, and INFp is dynamic positivist.

Sometimes a positicist, sometimes a negativist. It depends on my mood on that moment. Or put it in this way: I learnt from my experience that, if I hope something good to happen, it usually turns out to be bad. But if I keep my hopes down, it will turns out to be a surprise to me. So I tends to be negative.

I cannot find myself in static / dynamic description though. I just don't know what sort of person I am. =/

How I criticize? Like when I here a song, first I'll notice that whether I heard similar melody before, because I value originality. Then, I'll pay attention to the arrangement. I cannot stand songs with repeating arrangement. That bores me out. Then I'll pay attention to the singer... Does he / she sing well, especially in high pitch? I will not hear the song again if the singing skill of the singer is unbearable. Then I'll look at the lyrics. If it have some meaning, I'll see whether it is well written or not (like, good metaphor? beautiful vocabularies? etc etc). If it doesn't have a meaning at all, I'll never hear that song again.

Same for a novel. Can the writer hook me up since the first sentence? Does he / she write in fluent language? Is the story interesting? Are the plots well connected? Any twists? Are the personalities of the characters well portrayed? Are there certain truth in the novel?