Delta and Gamma views on personal responsibility: ENFp, ISFj, ESTj argument

[meatburger]

I dont think this is new ground, i probablly actually got this idea somewhere from this forum. Im interested if its all gammas, or if it is more my ISFj mums viewpoint. I had a big discussion / argument with my ESTj friend. I dont really want to argue the ins and outs of the situation that much, as i just like playing the devils advocate.

I talked to my mum about global warming. She doesn't really believe in it or think about it (thats cool no worries), and she said to me that if i felt so strongly about it, i would change my ways. I am in total agreement with her, and i said to my ESTj friend that it is not possible for me to make an argument against this kind of reasoning, its morally indefensible. He disagreed and said that until the government changes things, nothing will possibly change. So ESTj and i got into an argument that was like

"But if every single person cared enough then the situation would change"
"ESTj: but they dont so the government needs to step in"
"I agree definately, but you see that my mum is right in saying that i should do my bit"
"ESTJ: no she is wrong. What can you do about it if no one else does?"
"That is her point, i need to make a change myself to try to instigate change in others (practice what i preach)".
"ESTJ: But you cant change anything"
"So you are basically giving me liscense to litter and do what i want because it is not my problem?"

And so on.. The argument continued like this.

Another topic of discussion was the Aboriginal people in Australia. Let me just say that i am not racist and i do understand what they have been through, i just enjoy being a devils advocate. I was basically arguing from my ISFj mums viewpoint.

"its time for them to get over their problems, they are too focused on the past and caring about things that happened in the past"
"ESTj: but they have had an awful history of what the white man did to them, etc etc is in dissaray"
"I do totally agree, but i just wonder at what point there true empowerment is going to happen. If we coddle them and say sorry to them we keep validating them when they should be moving on".

etc etc. Anyway i hope with those examples you might be able to see the different quadra values. Something like this

Delta: People aren't really responsible for their own actions. They are a product of their history and need to be helped.
Gamma: People should have enough willpower to overcome their problems, they are responsible for their own lives and actions.

I personally think both viewpoints are correct, theres just a line that needs to be drawn. If you took the extreme delta viewpoint for example, you could make excuses for every human action. "He raped her?" Well he was raped as a child so thats why. If you took the extreme gamma viewpoint, it might be a bit harsh. "what a looser alcoholic" when his father used to beat him.

[Creepy-]

Those are interesting debates, but I’m not sure those particular viewpoints are completely type- or quadra-related. I do think people should take personal responsibility for things, and agree w you [and your ISFj mom] in the first exchange - if a person wants to make a change, I think he should do it on his own before he asks others to do the same thing [especially through legislation or similar action, which I tend to have a problem with in general]. I also think that as it's another Delta you're debating that stance w, that shows the difference of opinion is because of individual differences, not quadra differences... I may have misread you, though - I'm not sure whether you were talking about that part when you mentioned different quadra values.

Anyway i hope with those examples you might be able to see the different quadra values. Something like this

Delta: People aren't really responsible for their own actions. They are a product of their history and need to be helped.
Gamma: People should have enough willpower to overcome their problems, they are responsible for their own lives and actions.

I personally think both viewpoints are correct, theres just a line that needs to be drawn. If you took the extreme delta viewpoint for example, you could make excuses for every human action. "He raped her?" Well he was raped as a child so thats why. If you took the extreme gamma viewpoint, it might be a bit harsh. "what a looser alcoholic" when his father used to beat him.

Hmm... I think that description of Delta values is a little off. Maybe Delta viewpoints are closer to a combination of the Delta/Gamma ones above [if a set of values can be applied to everyone within a quadra]. Here is a description from the wiki that I think is mis-matched w that above - I put the most relevant parts in bold:

Groups made up of primarily Delta types tend to be focused on working on projects, enjoying physical recreation, or finding out interesting things about each other. Laughter is usually subdued and brief; instead, people smile a lot and try to be witty and welcoming. Groups need to be focused on some specific productive activity or topic of discussion, or else they fall apart. In Delta groups, there is a lot of splintering and decentralization. This allows for more focused and productive interaction with only those who share your particular interests or sentiments.People jump from small group to small group easily to keep up their interest level. No one demands that the entire group listen to one person or that everyone do the same thing. Delta Quadra types believe that if everyone just pursues their own interests and makes some accommodations for others, the group will be better off anyway. Delta Quadra types do not focus on building group identity or unity of purpose, but prefer for the group to remain splintered and decentralized.

[meatburger]

[I also think that as it's another Delta you're debating that stance w, that shows the difference of opinion is because of individual differences, not quadra differences... but maybe I misread that part.

Thanks for reading Song! In a way i was deliberately taking the opposite viewpoint of my ISFj mother, because i knew what she would say. It appears that i have been influenced by the gamma line of thinking to some extent though. I actually should have clarified, this seems to be a popular ESTj / INFj humanist viewpoint i have noticed. I think ISTp and ENFp's are a litte different in this regard.

Hmm... I think that description of Delta values is a little off. Here is a description from the wiki that I think is mis-matched w that above - I put the most relevant parts in bold:

I suppose i wasn't trying to say this is the way Delta interaction always is, i was just trying to highlight some different ways of looking at things that i have observed between the two quadras.

But yes i totally predicted the exact response from an ISTp you gave to be honest

[Creepy-]

Thanks for reading Song! In a way i was deliberately taking the opposite viewpoint of my ISFj mother, because i knew what she would say. It appears that i have been influenced by the gamma line of thinking to some extent though. I actually should have clarified, this seems to be a popular ESTj / INFj humanist viewpoint i have noticed. I think ISTp and ENFp's are a litte different in this regard.

Yeah, I understood you were taking your mom's viewpoint, but I wasn't sure that was as relevant since you said you agreed w it.

One of my best friends is an ESTj, and I wouldn't be surprised if she said the same thing - now I'll have to ask her as my curiosity is piqued.

I suppose i wasn't trying to say this is the way Delta interaction always is, i was just trying to highlight some different ways of looking at things that i have observed between the two quadras.

But yes i totally predicted the exact response from an ISTp you gave to be honest

Really? I'm predictable.

[Creepy-male]

But the question is, why would you need to reach a conclusion?

The facts:

The globe is getting hotter.
There is more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than ever.
Cardboard dioxen is a greenhouse gas.
Only a government has the ability to direct individual and group behaviour on a large scale.
This power is inherently limited, as governments must pander to their citizens.

Purely subjective conclusions, then, create needless conflict. Mister Gamma, you are responsible for breathing and giving off a greenhouse gas by engaging in un-resolvable idealogical conflicts. I would suggest you stop breathing.

EDIT

Upon further analysis, the logical conclusion would be to turn yourself into a living bomb. If you kill yourself, then a large amount of respiration is stopped, and, over the long term, greenhouse gasses are reduced. If you kill multiple people in the process as well, then you have stopped multiple other sources of long-term pollution.

It is highly unlikely that you, or any of your victims, will be able to contribute anything meaningful to the problem of global warming...

If it even exists.

[meatburger]

Mister Gamma, you are responsible for breathing and giving off a greenhouse gas by engaging in un-resolvable idealogical conflicts. I would suggest you stop breathing.

I actually think the argument could be made that it is the Deltas who are being ideological and the gammas are "getting things done". If my mum belived in global warming, i guarantee you she would do a shit load about it. Whereas deltas typically just whine and blame things on the government. (im using myself as an example).

[Creepy-male]

Oh crap, you're a Delta?

My entire joke is ruined then Dx

[meatburger]

Oh crap, you're a Delta?

My entire joke is ruined then Dx

yep lol. Like i said. I am the devils advocate

[ArchonAlarion]

But the question is, why would you need to reach a conclusion?

The facts:

The globe is getting hotter.
There is more carbon dioxide in the atmosphere than ever.
Cardboard dioxen is a greenhouse gas.
Only a government has the ability to direct individual and group behaviour on a large scale.
This power is inherently limited, as governments must pander to their citizens.

Purely subjective conclusions, then, create needless conflict. Mister Gamma, you are responsible for breathing and giving off a greenhouse gas by engaging in un-resolvable idealogical conflicts. I would suggest you stop breathing.

EDIT

Upon further analysis, the logical conclusion would be to turn yourself into a living bomb. If you kill yourself, then a large amount of respiration is stopped, and, over the long term, greenhouse gasses are reduced. If you kill multiple people in the process as well, then you have stopped multiple other sources of long-term pollution.

It is highly unlikely that you, or any of your victims, will be able to contribute anything meaningful to the problem of global warming...

If it even exists.

lol

political debates go down bad in forums.

watch out

[crazedrat]

I want to see the world actually DIE of global warming.. (Not really sure how that would happen... think of what that entails). That way I can have a more exciting doom than a heart attack or cancer. Also, I'll be able to die with the comfort of knowing this madness isn't continuing onward.

[calenwen]

I want to see the world actually DIE of global warming.. (Not really sure how that would happen... think of what that entails). That way I can have a more exciting doom than a heart attack or cancer. Also, I'll be able to die with the comfort of knowing this madness isn't continuing onward.

lol, nice.

This winter it's been colder than it's been in over a decade and we've had way more snow than normal so everyone is always like "Whatever happened to global warming? Could sure use some of that now!" I don't think I've ever met anyone who takes it that seriously.

[Brilliand]

I dont think this is new ground, i probablly actually got this idea somewhere from this forum. Im interested if its all gammas, or if it is more my ISFj mums viewpoint. I had a big discussion / argument with my ESTj friend. I dont really want to argue the ins and outs of the situation that much, as i just like playing the devils advocate.

I talked to my mum about global warming. She doesn't really believe in it or think about it (thats cool no worries), and she said to me that if i felt so strongly about it, i would change my ways. I am in total agreement with her, and i said to my ESTj friend that it is not possible for me to make an argument against this kind of reasoning, its morally indefensible. He disagreed and said that until the government changes things, nothing will possibly change. So ESTj and i got into an argument that was like

"But if every single person cared enough then the situation would change"
"ESTj: but they dont so the government needs to step in"
"I agree definately, but you see that my mum is right in saying that i should do my bit"
"ESTJ: no she is wrong. What can you do about it if no one else does?"
"That is her point, i need to make a change myself to try to instigate change in others (practice what i preach)".
"ESTJ: But you cant change anything"
"So you are basically giving me liscense to litter and do what i want because it is not my problem?"

And so on.. The argument continued like this.

Another topic of discussion was the Aboriginal people in Australia. Let me just say that i am not racist and i do understand what they have been through, i just enjoy being a devils advocate. I was basically arguing from my ISFj mums viewpoint.

"its time for them to get over their problems, they are too focused on the past and caring about things that happened in the past"
"ESTj: but they have had an awful history of what the white man did to them, etc etc is in dissaray"
"I do totally agree, but i just wonder at what point there true empowerment is going to happen. If we coddle them and say sorry to them we keep validating them when they should be moving on".

etc etc. Anyway i hope with those examples you might be able to see the different quadra values. Something like this

Delta: People aren't really responsible for their own actions. They are a product of their history and need to be helped.
Gamma: People should have enough willpower to overcome their problems, they are responsible for their own lives and actions.

I personally think both viewpoints are correct, theres just a line that needs to be drawn. If you took the extreme delta viewpoint for example, you could make excuses for every human action. "He raped her?" Well he was raped as a child so thats why. If you took the extreme gamma viewpoint, it might be a bit harsh. "what a looser alcoholic" when his father used to beat him.

My guess is that that's related to static/dynamic. That's mainly an exaggeration of something that Smilingeyes said - that static types are prone to overestimate human choice, while dynamic types are prone to underestimate it.

For comparison, here's what Smilingeyes actually said:

Static types tend to overestimate the power of opinion and of people, theirs as well as that of others. They tend to have easily objectifiable goals and be firm and constant in their pursuit thereof.
Dynamic types tend to directly perceive opportunities, changes, movement , systems and flow in their environment. In relation to this decisions, ideas and theories are situationally bound and change naturally along with the situation and to work against the requirements of the situation is either foolish or an ethical choice. Dynamic types tend to seem easy to bend, opportunistic, they also tend to underestimate the effect they have on an environment.

Granted, he doesn't accept Model A, but I like his theory.

[consentingadult]

Delta: People aren't really responsible for their own actions. They are a product of their history and need to be helped.

To me this is more of an Alpha approach towards issues of personal responsibility, depending on the definition of 'help'. Delta is in between Alpha and Gamma: "People are ultimately responsible for their own actions, but some have never learned how to. They are a product of their history and need to be taught how." Alphas help by providing stuff and focus less on behavioral change, Delta try to improve the situation by teaching how to do if differently. (and unfortunately a lot of needy people prefer the alpha kind of help).

And I do think the aboriginals need to get over it!

[Brilliand]

Alpha: I will provide help with your problems
Beta: I will forcibly change you
Delta: I will help you to change yourself
Gamma: You must forcibly change yourself

I'm trying to extend this to Beta, and in the process, I've rephrased everything else. Please critique.

[consentingadult]

Alpha: I will provide help with your problems
Beta: I will forcibly change you
Delta: I will help you to change yourself
Gamma: You must forcibly change yourself

I'm trying to extend this to Beta, and in the process, I've rephrased everything else. Please critique.

Beta: I will forcibly change you, but also provide practical help (meaning it's Betas who basically fund helping the needy, and the Alphas spending it)