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Thread: Vanity and type

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    Default Vanity and type

    I'm curious how N's differ in their view of their own physical appearance as opposed to a sensor. Or r u in general more intellectually focused e.g. you won't willingly lose an arguyment easily cause u base so much on it? Me personally I'm extremely vain and not the slightest ashamed of it, but as far as being evaluated in terms of my mental abilities i could care less what ne1s opinion is. People have told me I dress well and take care of my self because i want to impress people, this is not the case. I want to look good for me. Just want to know what ur guys view r on it/personal preferences appearance wise.

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    I am quite conscious of my appearance, like I find myself worrying about how people see me whenever I choose to wear clothes, which is like 68% of the time . I also worry about how people see me intellectually, but I am in the top 10% of my class, which is not saying very much. You can say I am a HSP.
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    If I had to choose between someone thinking I was intelligent or well dressed or whatever, I would choose intelligent.
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    Uhm. I kind of care about my physical appearance body-wise and face-wise, but I can't be bothered with clothing at all. As far as vanity goes, I don't think I am confident enough to be vain (I'm not unconfident, either - I just don't reach the treshold to be vain).
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    i think i neglect my appearance rather frequently, but i am also really sensitive regarding comments about it. some people have remarked i have a "style" to it. but, hah, i'm kind of oblivious to what style that is. i don't want to look like plastic and i do have tastes i suppose. blah. honestly i don't deeply care too much how a lot of people look; i care more about who they are. showering is a good idea though! please, do that. just fucking do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    @FDG: Ganin's LIE description does say they do pay a lot of attention to their physique. if LIE are as high-energy as i've argued (after all, they are not only Resolute, but also Result types), this may overlap with the matter of "functionality".
    Good point; I started working out mostly as a means to keep my energy levels high and my stress-levels low (given how it's generally easier to pack a workout in small amount of time, rather than, say, a cycling session); it eventually spilled over to my physique, but it wasn't my primary aim when i started.


    although facially, they are also sometimes described as "hiding" behind large glasses and such (e.g. Romero and Sowell.)
    Ahah, yes, I remember that particular. Well, my nose isn't exactly straight (thanks to a small accident during a football match when I was 13 and my nose was growing), so eyeglasses look strange on me. That's why I never use them.

    i identify with how i've described ST the most, but i'm leaner than most ST and probably don't do as good a job of shaving, folding clothes, etc. or choosing clothes consistently.
    I've noticed that the ST's (ISTjs and ESTps, mostly) in my classes tend to be rather undemanding in clothing matters. Mostly wearing the same clothes over and over. Partially, this ties into being a grad student, but the SFs in the class still pay a lot of attention to their wardrobe (even the males).
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Good point; I started working out mostly as a means to keep my energy levels high and my stress-levels low (given how it's generally easier to pack a workout in small amount of time, rather than, say, a cycling session); it eventually spilled over to my physique, but it wasn't my primary aim when i started.




    Ahah, yes, I remember that particular. Well, my nose isn't exactly straight (thanks to a small accident during a football match when I was 13 and my nose was growing), so eyeglasses look strange on me. That's why I never use them.



    I've noticed that the ST's (ISTjs and ESTps, mostly) in my classes tend to be rather undemanding in clothing matters. Mostly wearing the same clothes over and over. Partially, this ties into being a grad student, but the SFs in the class still pay a lot of attention to their wardrobe (even the males).

    sorry, first off i meant vain as being excessively appearance conscious...not lacking in substance or depth. im undemanding in clothes they just have to be clean and of good quality and look "good." Hygene and cleanliness are very high up for me as well as working out (i just did 200 push ups throughout the last two hours) so yea. But if i had the money rest assured id wear the most expensive clothing out there and it would be the best fitting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by smccosker View Post
    sorry, first off i meant vain as being excessively appearance conscious...not lacking in substance or depth. im undemanding in clothes they just have to be clean and of good quality and look "good." Hygene and cleanliness are very high up for me as well as working out (i just did 200 push ups throughout the last two hours) so yea. But if i had the money rest assured id wear the most expensive clothing out there and it would be the best fitting.
    No problem, I know what you mean, they're really not necessarily mutually exclusive. There's nothing wrong in working out purely for aestethical reasons. But, for example, just to name a difference, I can't get interested in clothes that way - I know that even if I had a lot of money, I could never buy expensive clothes. That could be related to S vs N.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I've noticed that the ST's (ISTjs and ESTps, mostly) in my classes tend to be rather undemanding in clothing matters. Mostly wearing the same clothes over and over. Partially, this ties into being a grad student, but the SFs in the class still pay a lot of attention to their wardrobe (even the males).
    Haha, yes, I totally agree.
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    Um. Tbh apperance is very important to me lol. It's a way to make a statement without words, which is good if your shy like me. I'm not insecure, but I am not vain either. Though I do feel insecure when I loose weight, ughh at patriarchal conditioning . The IEIs I know have good dress sense or dress artsy at least - they seem to like to dress differently but in a way that is stylish.

    ESTps I know seem to dress 'gangster', they like to power dress, and at my age power dressing is like hoodies, dark colours...like simple but statement at the same time. Don't seem insecure or vain when it comes to apperance.

    ESTjs seem to dress pretty conservative, my mother always stresses that looks are not important, though it seems to matter to her - that could be a midlife crisis deal though . My INTp sister is all up with vintage.

    EIEs seem to care a lot about how they look, they worry at lot about it, they spend time on it but their outfits don't come together all that well, even though they seem to have good taste when it comes to individual pieces. Oh but some dress like -ooo, come touch me -.

    An ISTj I know seems to care a lot about her apperance, her dress sense is crazy, but like conservative crazy lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    Se. i don't think vanity is necessarily Ethical, though. while SF's pay more attention to their appearances than ST's, they're also less sure of their appearances. (and vanity seems to involve both factors.)

    Si types will probably pay as much to their appearance as the corresponding Se types. however, more attention is diverted to how congruous the Si type's appearance is with the overall environment.

    NF pay about as much attention as ST to their appearance but are also less sure of themselves. beta NF appear especially reactive to how other people (and which other people) respond to their appearance.

    it sounds like gamma NT prefer their appearance to factor into relations minimally. i don't think alpha NT attend to their appearance much more than gamma NT, but it's been suggested they "clean up easily" -- perhaps Ne types more easily fit into a Si environment somehow.

    body composition seems to be related, too. intuitives tend to be leaner and ethicists are more likely to bother with small aesthetic details at the expense of functionality.
    In general, this sounds about right to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    in some ways that is right, but LSI in particular sound particularly regimented in how they care for their belongings, however modest.
    Quote Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
    I am very regulated and I excercise excessive self-control. My tastes do not shift - I take great care to preserve my self-image and I rarely change; this is the opposite of N-leading types. I do not have phases of any sort except learning phases, which is necessary to research exhaustively the structure of each academic subject.[...] I do not like attention, and I am incredibly defensive when I am cornered or watched. When I am bored I prefer to stare at my surroundings than to imagine or anticipate things.
    lol, sounds like my LSI dad. Until a couple of years ago, I had never seen him wear jeans [and he still only wears them to do house/yardwork]. He is extremely concerned w his appearance, both in terms of the way he himself is groomed and the clothes he wears. This concern is a bit over-the-top, in my opinion. For example, I always thought it was bizarre that he wore suits to all of my soccer games, even when it was sweltering w heat and humidity [which it often was]. But he wouldn't be dissuaded; it was a suit, or he wasn't coming. He's also proud to be known at work for still always wearing a tie, even though they relaxed that part of the dress code years ago. He doesn't do it for attention, though, but rather to uphold his own standards....

    He's also really concerned w the physical appearances of everyone in my family. When I was little we used to go out to eat a lot, and even though they were usually just regular chain restaurants, he always wore suits made us all [my brother and me, as well as my mom] dress up in really nice clothes. It's kind of funny to think about now - we must have looked ridiculous all dressed up in the middle of Applebee's or wherever - but that was what we did, untlil my brother and I finally refused [we argued our side on the grounds that we looked silly, as I recall].

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    I'm very aware of others and my own appearance. It's something I take a lot of pride in. I just don't see how you can't notice yourself or care how you're appearing to the outside world...seems foreign to me. I work out out and try to maintain things as much as possible and feel disgusting when I don't. I go for comfort and style. I won't wear it if I'm not comfortable. Comfortable can be stylish. What am I going on about? Am I answering the question? I don't know...I'm off to shoe shop...

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    lol, sounds like my LSI dad. Until a couple of years ago, I had never seen him wear jeans [and he still only wears them to do house/yardwork]. He is extremely concerned w his appearance, both in terms of the way he himself is groomed and the clothes he wears. This concern is a bit over-the-top, in my opinion. For example, I always thought it was bizarre that he wore suits to all of my soccer games, even when it was sweltering w heat and humidity [which it often was]. But he wouldn't be dissuaded; it was a suit, or he wasn't coming.
    Like a suit and tie? LOL

    LSI's are hilarious. Sounds a lot like my LSI dad. He's had the same haircut for 25 years, refuses to shave his moustache, same exact jacket and shoes and I think he's had the same pair of jeans for roughly ten years or more. It amuses me. He makes very good money yet refuses to buy these sorts of things. He could very well afford any new car yet rides around in a beat up Cavalier with no heat (the last few days have been interesting with the below zero temps. I offered for him to use my car but he refuses...apparently -20 isn't cold enough)and tires that go flat every 50 miles or so. Me and my mom find it all very entertaining. But anyway...

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    Comfort generally comes first. For parties or going out or whatever I like to wear one piece that is more attention grabbing, that gives a focus or definition. Too much going on at once is bad. But if I don't FEEL comfortable (either because of the actual comfort of the outfit--the material or fit-- or because I'm not sure about some design aspect--does the style of the shirt complement the style of the skirt and boots), I can't wear it. When I was younger I used to spend hours putting outfits together cause I was never 100% sure of myself. That's an awful feeling. These days I'm much more confident, I know what I like and what looks good on me, etc.

    I've noticed that the female alpha SFs (and even the male ISFps I know) are good with accessories like jewelry. My SEI friend buys his wife custom earrings every year for Christmas, mostly I think because he enjoys picking them out. lol My female SEI friends are always wearing some bling. And whenever *I* wear an interesting piece, they're the FIRST ones to notice and compliment.

    My other IEI friends are much like me. More hesitant about what they wear. Kinda tend towards being conservative because they just aren't sure and it's too much trouble to think about.

    SEEs are great with this. They always seem pulled together and stylish. Seems like it's effortless for them.
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    I hardly think about my appearance (hair, clothes, or otherwise). It bugs me when people comment on it, but it doesn't happen that often. CANNOT STAND THE FEELING OF ACCESSORIES. I've never been able to wear jewelry, hats or even watches, for more than a few minutes before I have to take them off and get rid of them.

    comfort is the most important thing for me.

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    I care about appearance. I'm not anxious about it, as if it's something I need to constantly live up to. I just sort of expect myself to put effort into it. I've said before that you can tell a lot about a person by looking at the subtleties of their appearance. It's not just about the physical aspects, but the nuances underpinning the various components. You see what the person values in themselves, and to some degree, others, through these things. So, you can tell if they're being real about it or not; if they genuinely take care of themselves or are just searching for attention. And there's nothing wrong with getting attention, but it has to be a result of your own knowing that you deserve it; and if you want it, get it. Don't go around like a tool waiting for someone to praise you. People should be happy you gave them the opportunity to praise you; nothing to lose. Appearance matters. Everything you do with it reflects a lot about your current state and general self-disposition. Like, there are people who consign themselves to casual clothes all the time, and disregard the fact that their hair looks like shit and they have a few zits on their forehead. What are they doing? This isn't a movie, but everyone has a reason for their behavior. If they've done away with concern for such matters, to me that is like doing away with an aspect of self-value.
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    Quote Originally Posted by calenwen View Post
    If I had to choose between someone thinking I was intelligent or well dressed or whatever, I would choose intelligent.
    I agree. Someone telling me that I dress well does pretty much nothing for me. I think I know what looks good together and what doesn't naturally and without much effort, so if someone comments on it I don't feel like I deserve it or something. It's like, are you complimenting me because I bought nice clothes? Because I combined them tastefully? Because I wear them nicely?

    Gah. It's just weird and irrelevant to me. I pay more attention to hygiene and fitness in people. Feeling and looking clean is way more important to me. It really grosses me out when people over-accessorize or use lots of products on their hair and face, especially if they're not even clean first. Girls that cover dirty skin with foundation, guys that lather gel into unwashed hair—ew.

    As long as you're healthy, clean, and smell good you're fine to me. I don't really care how you dress, as long as it's not overdoing it. I like people who keep things simple.
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    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Someone telling me that I dress well does pretty much nothing for me. I think I know what looks good together and what doesn't naturally and without much effort, so if someone comments on it I don't feel like I deserve it or something. It's like, are you complimenting me because I bought nice clothes? Because I combined them tastefully? Because I wear them nicely?
    This makes me think of the phrase, "I like your X." What makes it a compliment? Intent, I guess. But does whether or not it's accepted as a compliment depend on how well the speaker him/herself is dressed? Random thoughts....

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    This makes me think of the phrase, "I like your X." What makes it a compliment? Intent, I guess. But does whether or not it's accepted as a compliment depend on how well the speaker him/herself is dressed? Random thoughts....
    Intent only matters so much as a genuine interaction between two people.

    If someone whom you believe has shitty taste says they like you're outfit, what does that say about you?

    That's why certain peoples' opinions on my appearance matter to me, while others' don't. But it's not a matter of wanting approval; it's about a certain implicit alignment between our tastes. If there is dissonance, what is wrong? Although, I trust my taste above everyone else's anyway, so I can't simply yield to get their positive opinion back.

    But if someone compliments your outfit, does it mean they would want it for themselves, believe it to accord with the decorum of style, or just think it highlights your features well?

    So, a person can compliment you without even liking the outfit in itself or ever desiring it. You walk in a certain light with a certain outfit and project an attractive image. It exists only in that moment, independent of everything else.

    The superficial comments stem from collectively-accepted stylistic preferences. And compliments caused by a real admiration for the clothes as they pertain to the person's own style can be the most real: it creates an alignment between you and the person, on some level.

    But we can't like everything, so just wear a white shirt
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    So, a person can compliment you without even liking the outfit in itself or ever desiring it. You walk in a certain light with a certain outfit and project an attractive image. It exists only in that moment, independent of everything else.
    Which is why the compliment is worthless, imo. I don't really care that much about that stuff.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    I hardly think about my appearance (hair, clothes, or otherwise). It bugs me when people comment on it, but it doesn't happen that often. CANNOT STAND THE FEELING OF ACCESSORIES. I've never been able to wear jewelry, hats or even watches, for more than a few minutes before I have to take them off and get rid of them.

    comfort is the most important thing for me.
    You know what I think is funny? Eighty percent of the time, I wear clothes are comfortable for me, but when I wear something that kinda bothers me, I feel that I must look good in it, why else would it be uncomfortable? It's a strange subconscious feeling, but that is what you get trying to experiment with tight clothes.
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    1) Am I looking as loudly eccentric as possible?
    2) Am I violating any laws?
    3) Am I as comfortable as I can be?

    If I get a yes-no-yes on those three checks in the morning when I'm getting ready, I don't bother any more about my appearance for the rest of the day.

    Tentative ILE.

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    Heheh, I like that. 3 simple rules.

    My taste in clothes is very simple. I do the minimum I can while not standing out, and retaining maximum comfort. This manifests as me wearing loose, full-covering clothing, in mostly dark and muted tones. My work selections are purposefully androgynous. I can't pay retail prices for clothes with a clear conscience.

    I think it would be pretty rare for a INTj to be vain. Our dual helps us to pay attention to that stuff. That looks can affect a person's worth is a concept that still kind of disappoints me.
    Last edited by Ellis; 01-18-2009 at 08:23 AM.

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    I'm not vain enough I need to dress better for work, but I'm so uncomfortable in high heels and most womens' dresswear that it just exhausts me to wear it constantly. I shouldn't end the workday with my back, feet, and knees killing me. Someday I'll figure out how to look professional and be comfortable at the same time. I usually look for stuff that is nicely detailed and distinctive, but not hard to combine with other things. I don't like having an obviously 'branded' look... I probably do, though, simply because my budget reins me in to whatever is on sale at whatever chain store I'm in.

    Working out to look good is actually not enough motivation for me. If I enjoy it and I physically feel better, then I'll keep it up. But working out for looks? Um, I just don't care. lol
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    Heels can be surprisingly comfortable..you just have to choose the right shoe. I've mastered just about any length of heel after having to walk about 3 miles in 5 inchers. I couldn't live without heels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    My little sister (IEI I believe) has a sort of Mary Tyler Moore kind of vibe about her imo. It suits her, and always looks good, and she pays attention to her appearance. It's been years since I've seen her without make-up, even when we were staying in the same house. Her hair, make-up and clothes must be the first thing she does when she wakes up. I don't think it's vain at all. She looks nice, and I think feels good about herself and her appearance.
    I know people like that and I don't understand it at all. I don't think there's anything wrong with it, but I could never imagine having the desire to do that. Most days I won't even wear make-up.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    I don't think any of my family members have seen me without makeup in about 10 years. I don't look particularly horrendous without it, it's just that I've gotten in the routine of doing it first thing in the morning so if I don't, I feel naked without it. It's a bad habit.

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    I dont really have that good fashion sense. I just dont have any real style, i just throw things together. I can tell if i look really really bad i suppose, like if my shirt is too long or if the colours really clash. Recently a girl said i wear really booring clothes (i like light and dark blue tops without much writing on them). I just went to the shop and bought all this colourful shit and im quite enjoying it. I tend to know im not awesome looking, but good enough for most not to worry.

    I do care about how i appear to others, but tend to focus on the controlling of my body and my mind rather than the clothes. Im constantly monitoring if im standing straight, smiling, being smooth, eye contact, walking too fast, talking too loud. Im not sure if its an ENFp thing or just some quirk of me. It is like an ultra self consciousness, but i do seem to be able to control it. I think i just assume people notice as much as i notice, and i seem to always notice little flickers of unconfidence and awkwardness in people. Its like a game to try to irradicate it for me. I also believe that controlling who you are is far more important than how you look. Ive gone out and looked good and felt like shit, and looked like shit and felt good, and i get much more attention in the latter.

    @Jessica lol ur dad sounds so much like my LSI dad.
    Last edited by meatburger; 01-18-2009 at 10:53 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I don't think any of my family members have seen me without makeup in about 10 years. I don't look particularly horrendous without it, it's just that I've gotten in the routine of doing it first thing in the morning so if I don't, I feel naked without it. It's a bad habit.
    lol, same, it's always been a spontaneous routine. Wake up, wash face, brush teeth, brush hair, apply makeup. Quick, simple, and repetitive. I don't even think about it.
    Last edited by fox; 01-19-2009 at 12:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

  31. #31
    ~~rubicon~~ Rubicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I do care about how i appear to others, but tend to focus on the controlling of my body and my mind rather than the clothes. Im constantly monitoring if im standing straight, smiling, being smooth, eye contact, walking too fast, talking too loud. Im not sure if its an ENFp thing or just some quirk of me. It is like an ultra self consciousness, but i do seem to be able to control it. I think i just assume people notice as much as i notice, and i seem to always notice little flickers of unconfidence and awkwardness in people. Its like a game to try to irradicate it for me. I also believe that controlling who you are is far more important than how you look.
    You think it's better that people control themselves rather than not? I'm usually trying to stop controlling myself. :-p
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    You think it's better that people control themselves rather than not? I'm usually trying to stop controlling myself. :-p
    Hehe nah thats just me i find it hard to let go. I suppose i just mean that no matter how good looking you are if you are in a bad mood or have a bad personality you are not going to go far. Being ur natural self surely is best.
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    in some ways that is right, but LSI in particular sound particularly regimented in how they care for their belongings, however modest.
    A user called zenbrat who used to post here hypothesised that while SLEs keep their appearance tidier than their living spaces, LSIs keep their living spaces tidier than their appearance. Personally, I think that's bullshit, but it's something to consider.

    Quote Originally Posted by dinki View Post
    ESTps I know seem to dress 'gangster', they like to power dress, and at my age power dressing is like hoodies, dark colours...like simple but statement at the same time. Don't seem insecure or vain when it comes to apperance.
    I'm probably one of the least stylish dressers I know - I don't even wear band t-shirts. I literally have plain t-shirts (sometimes with funny phrases or logos on them), jeans jeans jeans, and a few sweaters. I love quality, but I love comfortable quality. Labels only have an impact on my buying if I know that a label is a good label (e.g. Levi jeans). On the other hand, I steer very clear of, for example, FCUK, because the quality is appalling; the clothes fall apart in months. I'm not self-conscious, but I am conscious; I know what exactly what you mean by "simple but statement" - I aim to show that I know I'm dressing conservatively (for a teenager, at least), and that I have absolutely no problem with it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  34. #34
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    I'm tidy with my appearance and never extravagant. I receive a lot of compliments from the way I look to the way I dress almost daily since I was a child, so they hardly mean anything to me, but they can make one feel like they have expectations to hold about themselves, and these comments can even make me feel more anxious in a way I can't explain. Does the fact that I take care of myself mean I'm vain? Some people assume so. I believe we're all a little vain; be it about our appearance or whatever else. We're all into ourselves some way or another, I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calenwen View Post
    If I had to choose between someone thinking I was intelligent or well dressed or whatever, I would choose intelligent.
    I'd choose them thinking I was attractive. I don't want people to know how smart I am, makes it harder to use, and hey, I'm lazy.....
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



  36. #36
    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    I would choose them thinking I was intelligent, but I'm less confident about my intelligence than my appearance.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Initially (first impression) I'd like for them to think I was attractive. How are they going to know at first that you're intelligent anyway? But yeah, over time, I may choose to reveal that I'm intelligent. But I kinda agree with Bee. You gotta save that card to use later. Sometimes it's advantageous to just let them think you're a ditz and write you off. Then later they can be like "whoa I didn't realize she was so brilliant"
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Intelligence doesn't score hot guys. I go for being perceived as attractive.

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    Looks like Gilly's S.O.L

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post


    among ethical types, i think SEE are more motivated to shoulder a household's commercial logics. (it seems to be shared in that dual pair.) in any case, gender expectations have some influence, too.

    my tendency is to think that gender expectations would have less to do with it than maybe some would think (referring to SEE-ILI duality.)

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Intelligence doesn't score hot guys. I go for being perceived as attractive.
    yeah, i find that many guys -- even the ones who compliment you on your intelligence -- are more or less looking at appearance more than anything. sad and probably shallow but it seems to work that way heh. ftr i also think director abbie's comment on beauty being a rather fleeting thing is very relevant. although again it seems a lot of people base their attractions on looks alone when it really takes much more than that to create something that doesn't fall apart instantly.
    Last edited by implied; 01-20-2009 at 03:33 PM.
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