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Thread: The relationship between mobilizing and suggestive functions

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    Default The relationship between mobilizing and suggestive functions

    I think I recently had an epiphany about the relationship between the mobilizing and suggestive function in relationship to Dual interaction (especially in the context of an individual's fixation on the mobilizing function (as explained by Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda article, or sort of): we try to reach the state determined by our suggestive function, but this is not provided by your dual directly. Instead, you dual solves the issues related to the mobilizing function, which takes away the need for putting energy into it, or allows you to stop worrying about it, which allows you to reach the state of the suggestive function (in case it's introverted) or provide the energy to act from the suggestive (ETA: was "mobilizing ") function (in case it's extroverted).

    Now this nothing more than an idea I'm thinking about, not a final conclusion.

    Let me elaborate this with an example: an IEE feels the need to know something (is it A or is it B, is a the right way or B, how can I be sure?), but his Ne makes him see many different possibilities and he can't decide himself. He will ask his dual for the answer, and probably accepts this answer without question, feeling certain it is the right answer. Now he can stop worrying, and reach that state of relaxedness and mental balance he's looking for (and not because the SLI makes him a tasty dinner ).

    So what does this mean for each type? Some of these I'm more confortable about than others:

    • IEE: If I know (be certain, be perfect), I will be at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally). Your dual will tell you what you need to know, so you stop worrying about it and feel balanced and relaxed.
    • SEE: If I know (be certain, be perfect), I will know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning). Your dual will tell you what you need to know, so you stop worrying about it and will know when to act.
    • SLE: If I'm loved (admired, trusted, respected), I will know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning). Your dual will tell you they love/like you, so you stop worrying about it and will know when to act.
    • ILE: If I'm loved (admired, trusted, respected), I will be at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally). Your dual will tell you they love/like you, so you stop worrying about it and feel balanced and relaxed.


    • SLI: If i can love (admire, trust, respect) someone, I will be creative (express my talents). Your dual will accept your love, so you will have energy to express your creativity.
    • ILI: If i can love (admire, trust, respect) someone, I will have willpower. Your dual will accept your love, so you will have energy to get motivated.
    • IEI: if I understand (a system, the rules), I will have willpower. Your dual will make sense of reallty for you, so you will have energy to get motivated.
    • SEI: if I understand (a system, the rules), I will be creative (express my talents). Your dual will make sense of reallty for you, so you will have energy to express your creativity.


    • LSE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will love. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and feel love for someone.
    • ESE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will understand. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.
    • EIE: If I have willpower, I will understand. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.
    • LIE: If I have willpower, I will love. our dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and feel love for someone.


    • EII: If I feel at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you how to be balanced, so you will have the energy to reach perfection.
    • LII: If I feel at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally), I will be loved (admired, trusted, respected). Your dual will tell you how to be balanced, so you will have the energy to respond to love.
    • LSI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will be loved (admired, trusted, respected). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to respond to love.
    • ESI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to reach perfection.

    Feel free to make constructive suggestions or improve on these descriptions.

    ETA: I clearly have more problems with descriptions for rational types than irrational types
    Last edited by consentingadult; 01-16-2009 at 01:35 PM.
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Well, I'm an IEE and that hit the nail right on the head. Being engaged to an SLE (my super-ego pair) those are some of the most fear-filled moments. When i'm having some panic attack about some cosmic question (why am i here, what does god want from me) or about some concrete question (what the hell shirt should i wear??), and he has no input. why? because he doesn't know the answer. Because he hates me and doesn't want to answer me? no. Because he doens't like BSing. If he doesn't know, he says, "i don't know". He doesn't try to guess or hypothosize. Fortunately for my sanity, my best friend of 23 yrs (I'm 25) is an SLI She'll answer me in a second. And I rarely to never question her responses. They do calm me. Even if something somewhere in me is saying "she has no idea what she's talking about", my mind just seems to accept them. And I can move on, calmed.

    I wonder how this manifests itself for him... Being an SLE, do I not tell him I love him enough because of me Fi? Hmmm. lol. Thanks for this insight
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    I think he/she is pretty accurate, whaterver it is.

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    mmmmm.

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    i like a lot of these.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    i like a lot of these.
    Thank you! Do you happen to have suggestions for those you like less, or just point out those? I'm dying for input
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    The Ej thinkers are the most awkward because I do not think that they need to 'mobilize' their 6th function in order to realize their 5th in the way you described. That is, I do not think they need to be creative or have willpower to love. I think these may be more accurate:

    LSE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will be able to find love. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and be able to love.

    LIE: If I have willpower, I will be able to find love. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and be able to love.

    I'm not sure that those are any better.

    The rest are excellent: they make sense and have a lot of implications. I like.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Greeter View Post
    The Ej thinkers are the most awkward because I do not think that they need to 'mobilize' their 6th function in order to realize their 5th in the way you described. That is, I do not think they need to be creative or have willpower to love. I think these may be more accurate:

    LSE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will be able to find love. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and be able to love.

    LIE: If I have willpower, I will be able to find love. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and be able to love.

    I'm not sure that those are any better.

    The rest are excellent: they make sense and have a lot of implications. I like.
    Sounds good!
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    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    EIE: If I have willpower, I will understand. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.

    I am not sure if willpower will help me to understand. it helps me to stop procastinating, move active, and i certainly agree that LSI will realized what I want and needs to accomphish Ti+SE. I definity like the "so you stop worrying and come to understanding of reality." becuase I know that just with Introvert intuition without SE is something that's completely "in your head" without actual DATA or Reality(SE) to back it up. you don't get the facts right and your mind is just reaching conclusion without being relevant to the real world. that is how SE helps my NI. I would like to think SE as collecting imagery data and then storing it into your mind.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpiazza000 View Post
    EIE: If I have willpower, I will understand. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.

    I am not sure if willpower will help me to understand. it helps me to stop procastinating, move active, and i certainly agree that LSI will realized what I want and needs to accomphish Ti+SE. I definity like the "so you stop worrying and come to understanding of reality." becuase I know that just with Introvert intuition without SE is something that's completely "in your head" without actual DATA or Reality(SE) to back it up. you don't get the facts right and your mind is just reaching conclusion without being relevant to the real world. that is how SE helps my NI. I would like to think SE as collecting imagery data and then storing it into your mind.
    I wouldn't know exactly about EIEs, but by now I realize that when I say "If I have willpower" it does not necessarily be have to be yourself that needs to get the willpower, it can also be (probably even more likely) that you 'have it' by proxy. If you have someone who does the Se-stuff for you you no longer have to worry about it. Is that what you are in effect saying about your own experience?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I wouldn't know exactly about EIEs, but by now I realize that when I say "If I have willpower" it does not necessarily be have to be yourself that needs to get the willpower, it can also be (probably even more likely) that you 'have it' by proxy. If you have someone who does the Se-stuff for you you no longer have to worry about it. Is that what you are in effect saying about your own experience?
    Nevermind what I said, you are right about the moboilzing, sugesstive function being work together to get full result from your dual. I just think that willpower should be replace by SE in general. but it does make alot of sense what you are saying.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mpiazza000 View Post
    Nevermind what I said, you are right about the moboilzing, sugesstive function being work together to get full result from your dual. I just think that willpower should be replace by SE in general. but it does make alot of sense what you are saying.
    yeah you're right, the descriptions need to be expanded to catch all aspects of an information element. That is something that will need to grow over time.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    • SEE: If I know (be certain, be perfect), I will know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning). Your dual will tell you what you need to know, so you stop worrying about it and will know when to act.


    • SLI: If i can love (admire, trust, respect) someone, I will be creative (express my talents). Your dual will accept your love, so you will have energy to express your creativity.
    Interesting ... this could possibly describe a very intense, on-again-off-again relationship of mine. She was always asking my input on practical matters, and almost begging for my approval of (and, necessarily, assistance in) ever-expanding plans. I was always basking in shows of affection from her, especially since I don't see myself as very creative and the times we'd collaborate stand as the times I felt most creative in my life. But we'd burn each other out, badly ... thus the OAOA.

    I'm still not entirely sure of her type, but the most likely are SEE, ESI and ESE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I think I recently had an epiphany about the relationship between the mobilizing and suggestive function in relationship to Dual interaction (especially in the context of an individual's fixation on the mobilizing function (as explained by Expat's Pathetic Hidden Agenda article, or sort of): we try to reach the state determined by our suggestive function, but this is not provided by your dual directly. Instead, you dual solves the issues related to the mobilizing function, which takes away the need for putting energy into it, or allows you to stop worrying about it, which allows you to reach the state of the suggestive function (in case it's introverted) or provide the energy to act from the suggestive (ETA: was "mobilizing ") function (in case it's extroverted).

    Now this nothing more than an idea I'm thinking about, not a final conclusion.

    Let me elaborate this with an example: an IEE feels the need to know something (is it A or is it B, is a the right way or B, how can I be sure?), but his Ne makes him see many different possibilities and he can't decide himself. He will ask his dual for the answer, and probably accepts this answer without question, feeling certain it is the right answer. Now he can stop worrying, and reach that state of relaxedness and mental balance he's looking for (and not because the SLI makes him a tasty dinner ).

    So what does this mean for each type? Some of these I'm more confortable about than others:

    • IEE: If I know (be certain, be perfect), I will be at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally). Your dual will tell you what you need to know, so you stop worrying about it and feel balanced and relaxed.
    • SEE: If I know (be certain, be perfect), I will know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning). Your dual will tell you what you need to know, so you stop worrying about it and will know when to act.
    • SLE: If I'm loved (admired, trusted, respected), I will know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning). Your dual will tell you they love/like you, so you stop worrying about it and will know when to act.
    • ILE: If I'm loved (admired, trusted, respected), I will be at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally). Your dual will tell you they love/like you, so you stop worrying about it and feel balanced and relaxed.


    • SLI: If i can love (admire, trust, respect) someone, I will be creative (express my talents). Your dual will accept your love, so you will have energy to express your creativity.
    • ILI: If i can love (admire, trust, respect) someone, I will have willpower. Your dual will accept your love, so you will have energy to get motivated.
    • IEI: if I understand (a system, the rules), I will have willpower. Your dual will make sense of reallty for you, so you will have energy to get motivated.
    • SEI: if I understand (a system, the rules), I will be creative (express my talents). Your dual will make sense of reallty for you, so you will have energy to express your creativity.


    • LSE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will love. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and feel love for someone.
    • ESE: If I'm creative (express my talents), I will understand. Your dual will unleash the creativity in you, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.
    • EIE: If I have willpower, I will understand. Your dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and come to an understanding of reality.
    • LIE: If I have willpower, I will love. our dual will realize what you want to accomplish, so you stop worrying and feel love for someone.


    • EII: If I feel at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you how to be balanced, so you will have the energy to reach perfection.
    • LII: If I feel at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally), I will be loved (admired, trusted, respected). Your dual will tell you how to be balanced, so you will have the energy to respond to love.
    • LSI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will be loved (admired, trusted, respected). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to respond to love.
    • ESI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to reach perfection.

    Feel free to make constructive suggestions or improve on these descriptions.

    ETA: I clearly have more problems with descriptions for rational types than irrational types
    These are awesome! I can see the IEE one being accurate for me. It goes against the idea of the mobilizing being producing and the suggestive being accepting, however. Perhaps one needs an initial influx of energy through the mobilizing before one can produce it on their own; otherwise it would remain somewhat dormant. What do you think?

    eg. if the ILI is given love/respect/admiration, then that would give them willpower, as you said, and later they'd express love/respect/admiration for others which would continue to give them willpower.

    Maybe this is how the psyche develops. The dual ends up "charging" the mobilizing, like a spark plug on a dead car engine, and then the whole thing would work at a higher energy level with or without the dual's presence. More dual input- more of a charge. Could explain the magnetic attraction of duality. It could work very much like a electrolytic battery.

    And the extent to which one receives mobilizing input would be the extent to which they'd serve their own suggestive needs, when away from their dual. So an ILI who is regularly given love and respect, would have much more willpower than one who has not, even when surrounded by Fe (and other incompatible) egos.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    These are awesome! I can see the IEE one being accurate for me. It goes against the idea of the mobilizing being producing and the suggestive being accepting, however. Perhaps one needs an initial influx of energy through the mobilizing before one can produce it on their own; otherwise it would remain somewhat dormant. What do you think?

    eg. if the ILI is given love/respect/admiration, then that would give them willpower, as you said, and later they'd express love/respect/admiration for others which would continue to give them willpower.

    Maybe this is how the psyche develops. The dual ends up "charging" the mobilizing, like a spark plug on a dead car engine, and then the whole thing would work at a higher energy level with or without the dual's presence. More dual input- more of a charge. Could explain the magnetic attraction of duality. It could work very much like a electrolytic battery.

    And the extent to which one receives mobilizing input would be the extent to which they'd serve their own suggestive needs, when away from their dual. So an ILI who is regularly given love and respect, would have much more willpower than one who has not, even when surrounded by Fe (and other incompatible) egos.
    I had completely forgotten about this post. Anyway, nowadays my opinion is that it actually works quite different:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

    So basically what I'm thinking now, is that your dual takes care of your suggestive function, and this in turn takes the strain of the mobilizing function, making it function more effectively. It is still possible to arrive at the needs of the suggestive function through efforts of the mobilizing function, but that is not as important or effective as the other way around. In the end, the reduced spending of energy on the Mobilizing, shifts focus of activity to the ego functions, which is better for the individual in the first place.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I had completely forgotten about this post. Anyway, nowadays my opinion is that it actually works quite different:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

    So basically what I'm thinking now, is that your dual takes care of your suggestive function, and this in turn takes the strain of the mobilizing function, making it function more effectively. It is still possible to arrive at the needs of the suggestive function through efforts of the mobilizing function, but that is not as important or effective as the other way around. In the end, the reduced spending of energy on the Mobilizing, shifts focus of activity to the ego functions, which is better for the individual in the first place.
    Do you still think this way?

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    [*]ILE: If I'm loved (admired, trusted, respected), I will be at ease (relaxed, physically and mentally). Your dual will tell you they love/like you, so you stop worrying about it and feel balanced and relaxed.
    I find myself identifying with this one the most.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    I didn't read them all yet but this:

    IEI: if I understand (a system, the rules), I will have willpower. Your dual will make sense of reallty for you, so you will have energy to get motivated.
    This sounds like a miserable existence without challenge or freedom to think for myself. My motivation in this case would be freedom from someone who told me how to find meaning and make sense of my reality. I don't think that my previous duals made sense of reality for me or even attempted to other than helpful practical tips. They did help me make sense of some other things but we did it together. If anything they took care of or reminded me (sticky notes work) to take care of practical day to day stuff I am useless at (remembering to pay bills on time) and let me explore my inner world. I can see them as being able to ground me where others can't and make me feel really present in my body and aware of my outer senses. Se does move me to act without thinking sometimes. Just do, don't think.

    I may be misunderstanding what you are trying to say here though. Maybe I am taking too literal. I have been extinguished.

    Edit: I see you have revised your ideas. carry on...

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    • ESI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to reach perfection.




    not really.

    *** If I know exactly when and how to invest in something that has high potential for profit, I am "perfect".***


    -- concrete situation: I tend to follow several "threads" at once when I notice something is profitable. If it brings me money right now, it's cool. Someone like my father (LIE) is able to sense which "direction" has more long-term worth and can perfectly organize work/plan everything step-by-step to reach a final goal (which can be fairly distant in time). I'm not as good as him in this respect. Needless to say he's pissed off even now when he notices I do what he claims to be "wasting time&energy just for some fast cash" instead of focusing on one solid path only.
    Last edited by Amber; 03-17-2015 at 08:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    I
    • LSI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will be loved (admired, trusted, respected). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to respond to love.
    • ESI: If I know when to act (be less impulsive, capable of planning), I will know (be certain, be perfect). Your dual will tell you when to act (do your planning), so you will have the energy to reach perfection.

    Feel free to make constructive suggestions or improve on these descriptions.

    ETA: I clearly have more problems with descriptions for rational types than irrational types

    now that I remembered it ... fdg's description in this old thread of mine was pretty spot-on for Ni HA (+ or - Te):

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-Hidden-Agenda


    The way I personally prefer to understand the concept of "Ni hidden agenda" is a request for Ni creative (which is going to be different if given by EIEs or LIEs). So, a request for either a quick synthesis of potential trends in the objective world, in order to act upon them and reap material profits to share among your community (this would be LIE-ESI), or a request for an idiosyncratic position which can potentially be supported by the group/society of reference, in order to create a new social system based on these "unexplored wishes" (this would be EIE-LSI).

  21. #21

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    Interesting, but it has a problem, in that you downplay the dual's Lead. The way it's stated seems to say that as long as you have your HA you're allowed to use your suggestive. But what of mirage. Your dynamic doesn't acknowledge this. At least in relation to OP. otherwise it's actually pretty solid.

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    I'm not sure if the post above was about what I wrote ... my Mirage notices cultural values (or stuff that can bring popularity) rather than "objective profit". I know an EIE-Ni who was in a "supervising" position in relation to me (think "mentor"). We used to agree on many things, but to me it seemed he always considered people's opinions over facts. So I would mostly get Ni "predictions" and advice on "the right moment to do something", but the focus was a bit different. Te base with Ni is more like "Wait some more time before you buy that car, because the prices are too high now and by some trends I see, a bit later they will fall." or "That niche is new and there's very high demand on the market; few people have the necessary training. It can be a good source for profit on the long run." or "If you want X, you should first get Y done and then mind other things." That's Te, so I didn't downplay the dual's lead. I don't necessarily associate Te with "knowledge" (as the OP said) ..or it depends, there are many kinds of knowledge.
    Last edited by Amber; 03-18-2015 at 12:47 PM.

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