Meritocracy

[Satan]

i've never believed in qualifications.

[Ezra]

I'm a fervent believer in meritocracy. I hate the idea of leeches, reaping the benefit of people's well-earned money, while contributing nothing to society - I'm talking about welfare thieves. Motherfuckers. At the same, I recognise that many people have no opportunity to achieve what they are capable of achieving, which I find tragic. I would happily pay my taxes to give a young, deprived child the chance to one day argue in court as an advocate.

[Satan]

ezra .. there is poverty the world over .. welfare is better than people just stealing, mugging, running rampants in the street with nothing left to lose.

[Tom]

ezra .. there is poverty the world over .. welfare is better than people just stealing, mugging, running rampants in the street with nothing left to lose.

Welfare IS stealing; just because you don't see the gun doesn't mean it isn't there.

Stealing, you say! Oh no, that's not the case; nice governments do that so that those poor people who don't have much can live better, silly. It's those naughty capitalists who ruin everything, them being evil pigs, and all. Don't you know anything, you dummy?

What is stealing? Go ahead; answer the question.

[Satan]

Welfare IS stealing; just because you don't see the gun doesn't mean it isn't there.

Stealing, you say! Oh no, that's not the case; nice governments do that so that those poor people who don't have much can live better, silly. It's those naughty capitalists who ruin everything, them being evil pigs, and all. Don't you know anything, you dummy?

What is stealing? Go ahead; answer the question.

Maybe you're just getting by, and looking for someone to blame. There are sponges everywhere. Other people have to pay their way . B ut it's okay, when they're ready they'll step up.

[Tom]

Maybe you're just getting by, and looking for someone to blame. There are sponges everywhere. Other people have to pay their way . B ut it's okay, when they're ready they'll step up.

Did you quite understand my sarcasm, or is this your attempt at an argument?

Welfare is a form of theft.

Welfare is accomplished by taxation.

Theft is the use of coercion to claim what belongs to another.

Coercion is the use/threat of aggression.

Governments use coercion in order to collect taxes, which is theft.

Taxes are the funds that are both taken by force and the only means of funding Welfare.

Therefore, welfare is theft. (If it was done voluntarily, the word is charity)

So stop stealing in order to make yourself feel better about your lack of charity toward the poor.

Damn you, today, ignoring function.

[Steve]

Is there something about valuing and and valuing advancement achieved by quality of performance vs. fairness, attractive personal qualities, or proximity to attractive people when it comes to things like advancement in the workplace, school, in some artistic field or skill, in popularity, etc...? How do you see such things and how strongly do you feel about them personally?

I'd say the way "merit" is measured, varies on quadra. The kind of supposed meritocracy that exists in the American school system is set up in an extremely Delta way, in how things are measured and how the hierarchy is set up.

Betas would probably assess someones "merit" more intrinsically and the assessment doesn't change as readily. However when it does change, the person's position in the hierarchy may change drastically and suddenly. Strrrng can elaborate on this.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Of course they're moochers, a girl on welfare broke my sister's nose. She tried to be friends with her and help her... and totally turned on her and went psycho. It's a long story though... but yeah.

I used to actually support the system but I was being really naive.

But the problem is I don't think we nearly have enough available jobs for people in the world do we?

[strrrng]

I'd say the way "merit" is measured, varies on quadra. The kind of supposed meritocracy that exists in the American school system is set up in an extremely Delta way, in how things are measured and how the hierarchy is set up.

Yeah. It's a piece of shit.

Betas would probably assess someones "merit" more intrinsically and the assessment doesn't change as readily. However when it does change, the person's position in the hierarchy may change drastically and suddenly. Strrrng can elaborate on this.

I think, in comparing the aristocratic quadras, it starts as a matter of Si vs. Ni, the experiential axes. Deltas context is ostensibly developing, while ours is more implicit. Paired with Te, deltas generate a focus on the "correct procedures," as if they are objective decorum; whereas, paired with Fe, betas just see the internal processes going on. But, on the other end, comes what seems the base of the hierarchies. Ni transfers to Ti, so implicitly perceived experiential information is then assessed in a systematic, top-down sort of way, inversing its initial nature, which I think makes for the aristocratic outlook. Whereas the Si information is then assessed implicitly through Fi, which is why deltas can seem "normal" while maintaining some personal hierarchy. The switch in object/field functions makes for some weird sense of definitiveness about "what is what and what should be done." Paired with Se, the beta system takes an absolute flavor, giving you the salient characteristics of our aristocracy; yet these systems are, to me, the end result of very real things that are simply seen from a more abstract, undifferentiated standpoint. Whereas, paired with Ne, the delta "hierarchy" takes on the form of "no hierarchy," which eventually turns into a favoritism of sorts, making internally-based assessments of things, as a means to uphold the sequacious SiTe. Internal fuels external in a way. So, with the school system, the reason that it's so bullshit, is that they aren't focusing on anything internal/abstract when considering the 'movement' of things; everything is acquiesced to what needs to be an ostensibly developing context and process. As with betas, we don't consider anything implicit about things' properties, because systems and influence need to occur.

[FDG]

I'm not Beta, but I'd say that meritocracy is really not much beta, in my opinion. Yes, beta can be hard-working and quality-oriented, but in the end what they want is forming a niche with their "own" people, promoting their "own" point of view, whereas I personally see meritocracy as needing to be based on more objective, reality-based standards (as opposed to socially-based). Lack of meritocracy may actually be one of the worst pitfalls of the beta quadra.

Beta teachers and bosses I've had, especially STs, would form extremely quick and, well, somewhat baseless assesments of a person capability, intellect, social-skills, etc., to the point that two beta STs could have a completely different picture of me because one saw me on a day in which I had the flu and hadn't slept well, and another saw me when I was fully functional; this is less strong in Beta NFs, that are probably much better suited for teaching and leadership. But generally, the incapability in understanding a person's potential is common to all Se types, in my experience; however, being that the beta STs have two well-defined functions as primary, they are usually more definite in their opinion; gamma SF's seem to be more malleable when told that they are wrong.

[The Greeter]

I'd say the way "merit" is measured, varies on quadra. The kind of supposed meritocracy that exists in the American school system is set up in an extremely Delta way, in how things are measured and how the hierarchy is set up.

Can you elaborate on how the American school system, the system where it is frequently criticisized as failing is an "extreme" Delta method?

What I am getting from what strrrng is saying is: the reason that the "Delta" way is flawed is because students are forced to follow strict procedures instead of understanding the underlying principles of the procedure and why it works, which apparently is the Beta way. Personally, I think this happens to be a combination of both Ti and Te.

Having a similar discussion in the another thread with Discojoe, it seems the main flaw of the American schooling system is the constant injection of personal belief and bias that enters the classroon which, in effect, renders the sytem useless because of the natural conflict that would arise.

Is this Delta? Does not sound like it.

[strrrng]

What I am getting from what strrrng is saying is: the reason that the "Delta" way is flawed is because students are forced to follow strict procedures instead of understanding the underlying principles of the procedure and why it works, which apparently is the Beta way. Personally, I think this happens to be a combination of both Ti and Te.

It's basically the pairing of SiTe (two external elements) that creates for the sequacity. The Si context isn't as amenable, like in alpha; nor are the Te processes flexible, as in gamma. The nature of this pairing is tantamount to the absolutist structure of the beta hierarchy. And yes, that was kind of my point: the external aspects of things aren't constituted of fundamental tenets, really; it's more about creating a consistent rhythm, and leaving the 'judgment' to the internal elements. Whereas beta, while seeming too absolute at times, will never keep something for the sake of consistency (they may keep something for the sake of upholding the hierarchy, though), as new, abstract processes and contextual patterns constantly evince themselves.

Having a similar discussion in the another thread with Discojoe, it seems the main flaw of the American schooling system is the constant injection of personal belief and bias that enters the classroon which, in effect, renders the sytem useless because of the natural conflict that would arise.

Is this Delta? Does not sound like it.

That thing is more of a corollary of the negative aspects of human nature. We all have beliefs, and we all want to be right. Inculcation can occur in either way in the aristocratic quadras. I know betas commonly get labeled as the cult-prone quadra, but delta is just as prone to it, just not as overt in their demonstrations. We may create systems and hierarchies to implement and take over the world; but deltas will create "no-systems" and implement them in a seemingly rational, yet underhanded way. Both equally harmful, in different ways.

[Ezra]

ezra .. there is poverty the world over .. welfare is better than people just stealing, mugging, running rampants in the street with nothing left to lose.

Better still - charity and welfare... for those who deserve it.

Welfare IS stealing; just because you don't see the gun doesn't mean it isn't there.

Stealing, you say! Oh no, that's not the case; nice governments do that so that those poor people who don't have much can live better, silly. It's those naughty capitalists who ruin everything, them being evil pigs, and all. Don't you know anything, you dummy?

What is stealing? Go ahead; answer the question.

So what about someone who was brought up in a deprived, fucked up ghetto of a neighbourhood, with no chance of success unless someone helped them. You saying we should leave them to their demise?

[Satan]

Better still - charity and welfare... for those who deserve it.

how do you decide that

[Ezra]

how do you decide that

You give everyone a chance who never had one - if they fuck up, they're on their own. Everyone deserves a chance.

And I don't count deprived families in this country as having had a chance.

[Satan]

You give everyone a chance who never had one - if they fuck up, they're on their own. Everyone deserves a chance.

And I don't count deprived families in this country as having had a chance.

so one chance, and then they're out.

[Ezra]

so one chance, and then they're out.

Yeah. Do you not agree?

Oh, I think our own citizens who refuse to work should be forced to work. But there is no use having a Croat or a Zimbabwean or a Chinese individual in the UK if they do not work and have been given the chance to work (by being let into the country).

[Satan]

Yeah. Do you not agree?

Oh, I think our own citizens who refuse to work should be forced to work. But there is no use having a Croat or a Zimbabwean or a Chinese individual in the UK if they do not work and have been given the chance to work (by being let into the country).

I like the idea of being forced to work, unless you're sick. A nd then you shouldn't be on your own to get better.

[ArchonAlarion]

Better still - charity and welfare... for those who deserve it.



So what about someone who was brought up in a deprived, fucked up ghetto of a neighbourhood, with no chance of success unless someone helped them. You saying we should leave them to their demise?

Nah. Actually the welfare state is one of the primary causes of said poor living conditions.

The poison is not the cure, sorry.

[Ezra]

I like the idea of being forced to work, unless you're sick. A nd then you shouldn't be on your own to get better.

Exactly. We can't expect a spastic to aim properly in the Armed Forces. Nor can we expect a paraplegic person to do manual labour. These people, I'm sure, have jobs available to them, but we have to recognise that these people are unable to do what we are probably able to do.

Nah. Actually the welfare state is one of the primary causes of said poor living conditions.

The poison is not the cure, sorry.

Please elaborate on your position.

[Nevero]

I'd say the way "merit" is measured, varies on quadra. The kind of supposed meritocracy that exists in the American school system is set up in an extremely Delta way, in how things are measured and how the hierarchy is set up.

Standardized multiple choice testing was set up by NTs. That's the demographic that receives the highest scores on these tests even though they often cannot apply this knowledge to solve actual problems.

[Eldanen]

Standardized multiple choice testing was set up by NTs. That's the demographic that receives the highest scores on these tests even though they often cannot apply this knowledge to solve actual problems.

You're full of shit.

[Inguz]

But the problem is I don't think we nearly have enough available jobs for people in the world do we?

This is the single most crucial aspect to why welfare isn't such a bad idea after all. Let's make a hypothetical situation where there is a shortage of workers and not jobs. The workers then could demand that they get a raise in salary or they will go and work for the company across the street. In order to keep this from happening some unemployment is necessary, because otherwise the market economy would just not work as well as it currently does.

Another point to be made here, if anyone wants to consider any sort of welfare as a waste of money or theft, then by all means do the actual math. What does it cost tax payers when people are born into unprivileged conditions? Think about all the tax money spent on repairing property, police and prison sentences etc as a result of criminal activity. Increasing prison sentences to "scare off" crime doesn't work, it will just result in even more money spent on prisons.

As far as I see it, there will be "theft" of tax payers money regardless of how you do it with the exception that one of the alternatives will be better for those who are not as privileged in society. It is not a waste as some people likes to make it out to be. Use that brain.

[kadda1212]

I'm living in a welfare state and it's nice. Of course the state also pays for people who don't behave like they are part of the state, but there's no perfect system anyway. This one is the lesser evil you could say.

[Azure Flame]

if you were to lie down in fetal position in the US... a policeman would probably pick you up and bring you to the homeless shelter. Its near impossible to starve to death in the US, if you live in a city.

Anyway, all countries need a leader. Everyone should be able to choose that leader. Every leader has a different style. Meritocracy is great but also can lead to tyranny. Every system has its own ups and downs. Much like the way everyone subjectively percieves the world, everyone also has a subjective set of needs for their leader to fulfill.

edit:

wtf this thread is old