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Thread: Skeptics, eh?

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    Default Skeptics, eh?

    It seems that we have some doubters here on the board as to what my true type is. So, then, as a challenge, either prove that I'm an INTp, or prove that I'm something else.

    What's my type?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    the best way for us to type you is to just take your word for it. You haven't made an idiot out of yourself, so i'm sure you're NT. I'd say you more like to reflect in the experience of socionics, and dabble in what interests you, so i'd have to say P.
    You aren't out there, in everyone's face, either. You know how to be calm and in focus.

    I don't see any reason to doubt you're INTp

    unless, of course, you doubt it.

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    Here's one question that has been in the back of my mind for a long time, ever since I've found out about personality typing:

    What does it truly, truly mean to be theoretical and abstract?

    Perhaps this is the final thing for me to understand about Socionics.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Well i'm not quite sure what you're saying, could be because you are doing it deliberately or because we are contrarys (one man's means is another man's end) but still, you never fail to interest me with what you say.

    Cone, I think that it(theoretical abstraction) is alot of things with alot of angles to them. It is like a fog with many sharp, smooth and jagged things we can't see floating through it. I think that it is a bunch of metaphors and ideas that mean alot of different things to alot of different people, time and places. It is dynamic and fluid. But there is also thunder and lightning, and seeds pieces of the past. There are words and matter and things that fit if we want them to, and things that fit even if we dont want them to. Somehow we fuse a bunch of these things together and somehow it makes sense. Sometimes we live in denial and we refuse to accept that all it really is is what i described above. Its just in your head. its just experience and passion and emotion.
    Its really just a metaphor to me. Just a bunch of symbols and whatnot.

    now that may have not made much sense but that's the best way i can put it into words.

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    that was me above

    thought i logged in, damn.

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    Thank you, Waddlesworth. And I must also say, you also interest me with everything you say. It's like, your wild theories and speculations are my playground. I love to read them and to try to prove them (or disprove them, but strangely enough, I've always been enthusiastic about them.)

    In my next post, I will list all of my observed behaviors, which is what I should have done in the first place when trying to find out my type (but you know me, I always have to do things myself, in an autonomic way.) I think you will be very, very surprised about what I have to say.


    Your xxxx friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Well thank you very much for the compliments, I appreciate it! It's very encouraging to me that you took notice. I've certainly taken note of some of the things you have said as well and you have had an influence on my thinking.

    So you are thinking about placing down some of you're ideas and observations? Excellent. I am very much looking forward to this.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Ok, so here we go.


    I'm the calm, introverted type. Very passive. I can actually get along with just about everybody, as I'm not pushy or imposing at all. I'm very shy, until I see no threat by the other party, or they take an interest in me. I'm absent-minded in a way, and I can often get caught in blank stares. I admit, I'm very lazy, and I can't stay on one thing for very long (which makes piano practice near impossible. I'd much rather sit there and play around with my mounds of sheet music.) I am somewhat impulsive, and I'm also obsessive about these impulses (like my obsession with Socionics and the like.) I make decisions about undertaking projects by the productivity of it and my mood at the time, during, and after the project. For example, if someone asks me if I want to go to the grocery store, I estimate the time it will take to make the trip, whether I can get anything out of this, and my current physical state (i.e. do I really feel like it?) I usually never stop to think about obligations (as they can be postponed; they're only relative) or future needs, and this tends to make me a very unprepared person. Strangely enough, I usually don't anticipate future events. I never ever, ever get intuitions about anything, and I can be very skeptical about mysterious happenings. I'm very unhygenic, although somewhat sanitary. I can't eat anything I don't like. People say I'm very rude, uncourteous, and uncaring (which I find highly offensive! Yet I have to admit, they're right.) I don't like spiritualism in the emotional sense, but I do like it in the philosophical sense. I don't like to bring up spiritual, philosophical, abstract points into a conversation, as most people don't seem to like that. I do, however, like to use spiritualism when people want to hear it, and I try to win people over (especially girls) with my spiritual side. I'm a very adventurous person, which got me and my friends into alot of trouble when I was littler. I'm quite aggressive when I need to be, thus I love gym class in school (especially German dodgeball.) I work very, very slowly, paying alot of attention to detail, yet I can also be quite unorganized. I'm a total prude, disliking sexual innuendos and jokes of the like. I also often can't understand wiseguys and their jokes and comments (I know how you INTjs like to be like that.)

    On the VI side, I have a very long face with a very long, completely flattened chin. It's kind of triangular, which makes you think, "intuitive!" My cheekbones are flattened in the front and slightly protruding outward to the sides, which gives the top portion of my head a kind of "square" look to it. My mouth is pretty small in width, which means I really have to strain in order to get an adequate smile, thus, I hate smiling (except for the one-sided smile, which seems to work better for me.)

    Probably the most important thing for me in any type of relationship is sincerity. Emotional sincerity, especially. This is kind of why I have become disillusioned with ESFps, since they give compliments to you just because they "have to". I actually find alot more satisfaction with ENFps, now that I think about it. I love their almost clueless, jumpy attitude and their absent-mindedness. It seems like ENFps can lighten my mood just by being there.


    Get the hint?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Transigent, if everything you just said was correct, you just proved that I'm not an INTp, or an INTj, or even intuitive.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    How so? Let's see how I can explain this.

    I am Ayn Rand and her Objectivism philosophy. I'm a strong concretist in the sense that questioning the nature of reality is useless. "Everything is unknown" is probably the dumbest, most useless phrase I've ever heard.

    Now to speak in your terms.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    First of all, simply asking the question "What does it truly, truly mean?" is Ti, an abstract question.

    Why is this an abstract question?

    Because the only answer that will satisfy it is a global, all encompassing answer! (Reflecting the question back on to you provides the type of "self-referent logical coherence" that solves this perfectly!)
    How can you be so sure that a "global, all encompassing answer" is exactly what I want? What I truly wanted was an example of what abstraction really is. You're looking way, way too deep into these things, obsessing with too fine details. Asking "what does it truly, truly mean?" is an attempt to concretize an abstraction, so I asked an abstract question to get not an abstract, general answer, but a concrete, detailed answer.

    You also say that Ni synthesizes the internal world and that it's not truly a perception function, but "non-focus". You also say that INTps can prove anything to themselves. In this respect, I must conclude that I cannot be an INTp. The way I prove things to myself is by orientating my ideas to the perception, i.e. what you see is what you get. If intuitives have an easy time figuring out the internal, abstract structure of something (as in a person's beliefs, what they might do relative to that), then I have an easy time figuring out the internal, concrete structure of something (as in what the person tends to do and what this means). Perceptions that do not seem to fit the internal theory confuse the hell out of me, since my abstractions are orientated by what I see. This is why I think that intuitives like everyone on this board (except for Pearl80 and possibly me) suck at typing people, because they tend to fail to see the difference between what could be and what's actually there. They trust the theory too much and are often blind to the concrete details. By your definition, Transigent, intuitives are attracted by certain types of inconsistencies. Thus, in something so inconsistent as typing, they often can't get past these inconsistencies, so they wait around until something resolves them. Now take me, for example. I can usually type someone in a matter of minutes using VI, general attitudes, preferences, etc., and I'm usually correct. However, I don't trust the theory. My typing skills mostly come from personal observations. Thus, if you're an ESFj and I've never experienced an ESFj before, it will take me a while to figure you out, but after that, I will be able to spot ESFjs quite quickly (seems to me that there are a lot of ENTps in FBLA, but that's quite off-topic.) I don't want to gloat, but I would say that I'm an excellent typer of people, excepting myself (Te stuff, right?)

    I don't trust my own theoretical abstractions, as you may have noticed, but I highly trust my concrete typing skills. You want to debate MysticSonic's type some more?

    Transigent, your doubting of my type has opened up a whole new world for me, and for that I must say thank you.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    And I must also say, I think the reason that I thought I was an intuitive was that I mistook being abstract and theoretical for being highly intelligent.

    So why don't I just say it already? Transigent, your doubt was correct. I am an ISTp.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    One hundred posts, alright! :wink:
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    all things must pass

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    Abstraction is "looking at things from a different perspective" by adding or subtracting data from objects.
    Thank you, Pedro-the-Lion! In that case, I doubt that I'm abstract, because of the fact that I don't see the relevance in considering multiple perspectives. I often get annoyed at introverts and intuitives (like INFjs and INFps) for taking what I say and putting it into a context that they understand, because details get lost and distorted along the way.

    I'm not an INTj by any stretch of the meaning, as you have pointed out, Pedro-the-Lion, but I'm not an INTp, either. For one, I'm by no means "goofy", and I do reveal a good portion of my inner life to my INFj friend (and people who are truly interested.) I get along with INFjs way, way more than I should. I love ENFps and am disillusioned with ESFps. I often don't anticipate future events. I'm very adventurous. My imagination is so dry and logical, I'm not even sure you can call it "imagination". I assume that people understand nothing of what I'm explaining, so I'm often very long-winded, scouring every little detail of my explanation, and often going off into tangents to explain stuff. I don't trust any of my abstract conclusions (but you may have not noticed that, as everyone always seems to agree with me.) I'm open-minded (says my mom) and in no way opinionated. Yet, I tend to talk out of my ass (I think, anyway. I can't stand doing that.) And finally, for some strange reason, I'm still on this forum.

    I need to change my signature, I think...
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Transigent, I'm never offended by anyone who at least tries. Don't feel bad about yourself, man, we all respect and like you.

    It's funny, you say that you have a subconscious need to get people to show emotions, it seems that I have a subconscious need to comfort and reassure people, which may explain why I hang out with the hopeless losers of the world. This may sound weird, but I actually felt like hugging you at the bottom of your post (ugh...)

    Probably the most convincing evidence of me being an ISTp is that the relation between me and my INFj friend does not seem like a relation of benefit (but of course, I ignored the disproving evidence, which is bad, I know. Did you know, they say one mark of creativity is being observant of inconsistencies and capitalizing on them?) We get along way too well as friends to be a relation of benefit. Something I never got about it all was that other than him needing something from me, I also needed something from him. He could help me with my hidden agenda, that being the realm of love. He says I'm easy to talk to, I think he's also easy to talk to (and now, after meeting him, I learned to embrace my hidden agenda and talk about it more.)

    I wonder how CuriousSoul will take all of this...
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Default INTP or ISTP?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cone
    Probably the most convincing evidence of me being an ISTp is that the relation between me and my INFj friend does not seem like a relation of benefit (but of course, I ignored the disproving evidence, which is bad, I know. Did you know, they say one mark of creativity is being observant of inconsistencies and capitalizing on them?) We get along way too well as friends to be a relation of benefit. Something I never got about it all was that other than him needing something from me, I also needed something from him. He could help me with my hidden agenda, that being the realm of love. He says I'm easy to talk to, I think he's also easy to talk to (and now, after meeting him, I learned to embrace my hidden agenda and talk about it more.)

    I wonder how CuriousSoul will take all of this...
    It seems to me that you are indeed either INTP or ISTP, :wink: beyond that it is not that easy to say. I think one should be careful in using the intertype relations for typing, because people are individuals and type is just one aspect of their personality. Now that I know I am INFJ I can also see a strange pattern that somehow casual conversations and rather superficial friendships seem to start easier with the types with with which I share asymmetrical relations (ESFP, ISFP, INTP, ENTP). I am not sure why but it could be that the asymmetrical information exchange between the functions kind of makes it easier to get the conversation started.

    The way the tests are constructed and the types of questions asked: Are you more interested in theory or practise?, for example tend to badly confuse intuition and intelligence. This is especially the case with MBTI, but I do not think that socionics tests are immune to this fallacy either. It is though hard to think of anything much better, you could perhaps try to figure out how strong your sensory functions are. Are you able to take good care of your physical needs and create the necessary comfort, can you tell if you have more deliberate movements and touch; concentration distributed throughout body or is your consentration in your mind movements less aware; concentration focused in mind. I notice this permanent "out of body experience" quite strongly in myself, but for others it may be more difficult to judge. The four scales can be misleading, but I think it is worth going through the longer list once again.
    http://www.geocities.com/tommylove90...rrational.html


    Then about ENFPs, they are generally easy to get on with, and INTPs and ENFPs can often be good friends, so do not make too much of your experiences. If you get into a relationship with an ENFP their weaknesses may become more apparent. ENFPs are often very independent minded, and even when in a close relationship need to have their freedom to go as they please, they may almost unintentionally flirt with strangers and if you are easily jealous ENFPs are probably not the best choise for you. It can also be difficult to hold their attention in conversation and they may be lazy and expect you to take care of their "sensory needs", do most of the household work for them, etc. I may be putting it a bit harshly, but the stengths of ENFPs are often more noticeable than their weaknesses, but if you are willing to take care of your partner's daily needs, it is more likely you are ISTP. INTPs again tend to be more impractical people and usually would like someone with more willpower and practical skills. I am of course largely extrapolating from just few cases so do not make too much of my words.

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    all things must pass

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddlesworth
    Well thank you very much for the compliments, I appreciate it! It's very encouraging to me that you took notice. I've certainly taken note of some of the things you have said as well and you have had an influence on my thinking.
    Trying to appeal to my hidden agenda, are ye? :wink:

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I think it's official Gamma is taking over. Interesting development.
    Do you mean "Delta"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I thought INFJs irritated you? Have I lost an ally in the war on NFs?
    No, no you haven't (at least in the intellectual realm.) And INFjs only really irritated me because they can't reason intellectually and have horrible, biased memories. Plus, after having an INFj at my house for about a day or so, I become so drained of energy that I want him to go home immediately, yet he never does, so after two days, I become really uncomfortable. That's when I get really irritated. (Sounds like a typical Relation of Activity.)


    Oh, and just a thought. I'm going to create a new thread where I'll answer all your questions and show you my reasoning for ISTp. So, I suggest you read it, because there's going to be alot of stuff everyone can relate to (like why picking out the four preferences sucks for finding your type out.)
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Although for some reason I have the sneaking suspicion that you look like a supersmart ISTP....
    Transigent, may I ask of why you thought this? Anyway, I'm eternally grateful for your observant nature, without it I would have been lost in confusion forever (INTp, in a back-of-the-mind sort of way, didn't quite make sense for me.)
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    all things must pass

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    Edited for gayness.

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    How accurate/reliable is Transigent's Ne-Ni article? If it's good, perhaps we could put it on the articles page on the16types.info.

    BTW I'd also greatly appreciate other articles Transigent - you mentioned one about Fe-Fi, didn't you ........?

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    all things must pass

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    But was it reliable and, if so, can we expect more in the future?

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Transigent, thank you very much for helping me here, I really appreciate it.


    Just like loving (or hating) somebody unconditionally can cover up the weak Fi: the function doesn't need to be used, because the decision has already been made.
    So in other words, it's a point of people are always trying to avoid situations where they have to use the hidden agenda, so by falling back on one decision (love or hate in this case), I never have to deal with complex situations involving Fi (which explains my fear of intimacy and moral judgment.)

    So I think that there are many cases where the INTp/ISTp will love to let people know that he loves somebody (in my experience, some never shut up about it!)
    Now that I've lived awhile, I completely, 100% agree with you, and I regret saying what I've said before (although I do dislike public display of my feelings, but that may just be trying to protect Fe.) I think my INFj friend is about ready to kill me, with how much I talk about love and stuff (but it's fun!) Actually, I love playing the guessing game with people about who I'm in love with at the time.

    I think a more probable scenario of a Fi hidden agenda is vomiting mawkish emotions from time to time to cover-up an inadequate Fi.
    I tend to use strong words like 'love' and 'believe' because it makes me feel good. Also I tend to fall in love way too quickly (where it takes my INFj friend 50 years...)

    Transigent, you actually proved beyond doubt that I am an INTp! It's interesting with what you said though, because I actually have noticed these strange behaviors within myself over time. Of course, I don't know any INTps or ISTps other than myself, so it's good to have an outside observer to bring these to the forefront.

    See, Transigent, you really do know what you're talking about!

    (Hidden agenda Fi in action :wink: )

    Your INTp friend, (Fi again)

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    They are quick to change thier lives around a person.
    I think I scare girls away whenever I do this. My INFj friend always says to ease into a relationship.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    You know, for some reason, I think people just love to talk about their hidden agendas.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    I love INTPs manifestations. They are so much fun.
    Oh?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    all things must pass

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