Probably a less appealing version of a beta atmosphere (at least to non-betas)...
yay for beta antics
Probably a less appealing version of a beta atmosphere (at least to non-betas)...
Last edited by strrrng; 02-23-2009 at 11:45 PM.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Originally Posted by strrrng
It's appealing to Betas, then?
Not necessarily. But the point was, that it could reaffirm negative associations some non-betas may have. Betas could just as easily find it repulsive, but still understand where certain behaviors are coming from better. So, it was just meant as a hyperbole, I guess.
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Out of curiosity, what would a typical beta enjoy doing for fun? What is a "fun" atmosphere for them?
It depends. Personally, I can't say I don't find that kind of intense, competitive atmosphere depicted intriguing. Not because I love ostentatious douche bags or anything; the underlying themes of rising to the challenge, generating a lot of energy, etc. are what I'm referring to.
As for myself though, I'm not all gung-ho with everything. I greatly enjoy intense workouts and martial arts, but also have a good amount of intellectual inclinations and can exist very passively for periods of time.
So, I think it comes down to the nature of interaction when you get a group of betas together. And based on my experience, there tends to be a strong mutual feedback of emotion, without all the (what I perceive as) "******ry" involved in typical alpha atmospheres. There may be confrontation and power shifts, but people won't take it personally, and will use said things to amplify the experience.
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There was something like that a while ago... towards the beginning of senior year, I believe. My school had a lot of wealth, and the kids tended to gravitate towards reckless activities and the like. Now that I think of it, the similarities are hilarious.
There was a miniature fight club thing organized by a core group of these somewhat preppy guys (the leader was an Se-ESTp 7w8 sx/so...lol). Anyway, it basically consisted of group gatherings where sparring matches would be held, using shirts and stuff to wrap peoples' hands. Nothing planned, just whenever there was an opportunity and people were in the mood. I'm pretty sure alcohol was frequent, although I didn't go enough to find out. But from the 3-5 times I did go, I can say I found it pretty fun. As I mentioned before, the energy was a big part of it (ironically, about 2/3 of the group consisted of betas, in retrospect), and I guess the immediate impact of things. Like, one dude got the cartilage in his ear fucked from a match, because they were drunk and sloppy, but it was all in good fun. I also enjoyed it because it gave me a chance to fight guys that I disliked, without any negative connotations, lol. Good times.
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I would definity enjoy something like this, I dont want to be in the club because of the sense of belonging as much as the activity and the atomshphere will give me a sense of europhia.
Last edited by 07490; 02-22-2009 at 09:33 AM.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
lets make one then!!!! everybody who lives in the new york area who wants to participate just let me know (i can even get people to watch...charge $5 per admission maybe?) big moneymaker
HAhaha I'm in niffweed should join us also, its a good way for him to get SE.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
FR, numbers.
Niff is allergic to SE.
Lol, yeah I was definitely not happy about the Se in that clip. Makes me feel very uneasy and tense.
Its like, wow good job being an aggressive mother f*cker. Hope that works out for you.
I don't mind physical fights because there is a sort of system and skill involved, but I hate it when fights get personal.
I become enraged when people attempt to coerce me. Makes me wanna beat the living shit out of em.
Like once, a few of my friends told me how you had to get permission from Hell's angels for certain things in the biker world, and how they generally are coercive little bastards. For example, there was something where you have to get their permission for certain gang colors.
I became incredibly angry. I started thinking of ways to destroy Hell's Angels and wipe those assholes off the face of the planet.
Same thing with the mafia and government.
The end is nigh
Yeah. That was actually one of the significant things I thought made it beta -- the emotional games he was playing.
That too, lol. And this seems to be a common reaction among alphas.I become enraged when people attempt to coerce me. Makes me wanna beat the living shit out of em.
<3 mafiaSame thing with the mafia and government.
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I can't say I would like that kind of thing; I'm not an excellent fighter, and I would probably just feel ashamed for not being better. I'm good at grappling, but I can honestly say I've never punched someone else in the face with the intention of hurting them, nor have I ever taken a shot to the face. Oh I've wanted to, sure, but I know that I'm skinny, and I've never picked or gotten involved in a fight that I wasn't sure I could end quickly in my favor. I know that I have more to gain by keeping my pearly whites and gorgeous face in tact than by risking them over petty territorial/ego conflicts :wink:
That being said, if I was interested in fighting (and uglier), yes, I would definitely be into that kind of thing.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
That's been my main qualm about it ever since I first got into boxing. Fortunately, the chances of having anything substantially harmful happen to your face are slim, since sparring usually only occurs once you know how to defend yourself properly. But, in some backyard shit like this, anything can happen; a fight is never that fancy-looking, gloves or not.
I'm still glad I participated, because cheap thrills are a necessary part of life. The "gloves" were basically shirts/pillow cases/w.e wrapped around the fists, and mouthguards were rarely used. It was just a good atmosphere and a chance to let out some aggression.
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lots of talk...no action
i need some actionin my life I'm bored to the point that I am becoming ill physically. i hate life. why am i destined to be so bored? it leads me to do things that get me in trouble. maybe i should just steal a car and get into a high speed chase and end up in jail. but then id be bored in jail. but if i get a nice job tommorow with some stroke of luck with this economy then id be bored at the job most likely. i hate being SLE, i want to be a type that never experiences the deadenning of chronic boredom. i dont even enjoy sex nemore. nothing thrills me....someone please help me i feel like a robot
That's why you never listen to betas when you are contentious with them. Or anyone else for that matter. But especially betas. They seem to be most inclined to pushing buttons and trying to set you up into this trap of following them. Or at least that's what I most see from them. Gammas some but they are more just cut throat and less glitzy.
The kid who got his ass handed to him was always following the lead of the other person, though.
As Bale would say - "You're an amateur, man"
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Yes
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I find the video repulsive to me.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
What type is the blonde guy, you think? He reminds me of an exaggerated version of my supervisor at work.
Work out. Buy a mountain bike. Start running. Join a book club. Take karate. Climb a tree. Go for a hike. Go swimming.lots of talk...no action
i need some actionin my life I'm bored to the point that I am becoming ill physically. i hate life. why am i destined to be so bored? it leads me to do things that get me in trouble. maybe i should just steal a car and get into a high speed chase and end up in jail. but then id be bored in jail. but if i get a nice job tommorow with some stroke of luck with this economy then id be bored at the job most likely. i hate being SLE, i want to be a type that never experiences the deadenning of chronic boredom. i dont even enjoy sex nemore. nothing thrills me....someone please help me i feel like a robot
Go.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Totally. That was the part of that clip which was most annoying for me. I mean, he was so obviously being played by the blond guy that it was just painful. And blondie wasn't even trying to hide it at all. Walking away would have taken more balls - making the decision to fight when he was so obviously outclassed and worse still, provoked into it, was when he lost that whole game.
That clip showed something that is very much not my world, but *shrugs* I can get it? Substitute words for fists, and yeah, that's more like it. The whole competitiveness, and fighting for the sake of nothing more (and nothing less) than determining who is best makes sense.
allez cuisine!
If I can put my two cents in here, I was watching the clip as isolated from whatever movie it came from - I have no idea what overarching themes of revenge or personal growth or whatever it was trying to push (and I'm sure there was some kind of message, yay for formulaic movies).
I didn't understand the dark haired guy - if he didn't want to fight, then he should have just walked away, not let himself get goaded into the fight. I think the woman who walked away was the most, um, sensible isn't the word, nor is noble, but I liked her choice best. She was being used as a pawn in the power struggle, sure, but she decided she didn't want to be part of it and *left*. Backed up her decision with action and didn't waver. The people hanging around cheering it on - sure they were acting like a mindless mob, but what obligation do they have to make sure the dark haired guy didn't do something stupid (like fighting/self-destructing).
I didn't think the purpose of posting that vid was to say 'all betas like bare knuckle fighting because they're bloodthirsty knuckledraggers'. I thought the point was to showcase an obviously competitive environment where both physical and mental games were played in a bid to establish a hierarchy/supremacy. The medium may be that of teenagers with more money than class and a fight that went on longer than was tasteful, but the message I think is more than just that.
I don't like fighting. I don't watch fighting, I have no interest in boxing. But I didn't think that the 'beta themes' of that clip had anything to do with how much betas as a whole may or may not like fighting.
allez cuisine!
I totally agree 100%, I have to admit that if i were put in that position, I would have done the same as he did, I would have refused to fight, in that circumstances, when the final insult has gone too high, I would not have held back, and I would have certainly stand up even if I knew i have have been beaten up and were embrassed by losing the fight in front of all the people. that would have been how I reacted , no matter how much dignity I lose or swayed by the blonde guy to presuade me to fight, I just could not have walked away like that.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
I don't mean to belabour the point, but I also didn't see they physical fight as being necessarily about power. This may be semantics, but I see power as something that can be given, not demanded. I didn't think that blond guy winning the fight gave him any real power over the other guy or because of his physical superiority. Yes, he played and won the game - both physical and mental - and that put him at the top of the hierarchy. But what power does that give him? The dark haired guy won't necessarily now listen/give in to the blond guy because he beat him with his fists. They are humans after all, not a wolf pack. So I agree that physical fighting alone doesn't make anyone worthy of respect. (I also, as I said before, think that this is about more than just that.)
The power I saw in that clip was the power the blond had over the situation. And he was given it by the support of the crowd, who wanted a particular form of entertainment, and rewarded him when he provided it. (You're right, they're totally followers, but at the same time, they influenced the main characters by demanding a particular course of action, which gives them agency beyond merely following. They got their desires, however distasteful, satisfied.) He got power by defining the rules of the game, and by playing it on his terms - that's where I see the dark haired guy gave up his 'power'. So in that way, I saw the main event, if you will, being a mental game, and the physical fight was almost irrelevant because the outcome was determined before it started. I find that interesting.
Thank you! I have some stuff going on in my life at the moment, so I don't know how much I'll be around at all. But it is nice to drop in!And welcome back!!!
allez cuisine!
Unfortunately, no. Pretty much the opposite. But I'm using the forum as my happy place/escape right now, so...yeah.
allez cuisine!
Yes it really was, It is almost like she is cacluating and carefully examining that particular situation of what is going on.
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
escape from what? a bad relationship, or too much bills, or that life does suck but not this forum which is why you are using writing here, like a escape using drugs...
(D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)
@idolatrie: everything you said was astoundingly accurate -- especially given your lack of knowledge of the context and film.
Hah, exactly. I agree that gammas may push buttons, but it does usually seem more direct, and well, boring, to me.
The character was a stereotypical ESTp 8w7, but irl the actor, Cam Gigandet or whatever, is an ESTp 3, I think.
The "reason" for the fight, was that the decorum around there *was* fighting. That is what those kids' lives revolved around, in terms of mass gatherings. Parties were the medium, and there was a specific hierarchy. An important thing to note, is that the girl was the blonde guy's girlfriend, and she lured the dark-haired guy to the party at his request. So, she was a willing pawn, and only left because she felt bad. The spectators are to be expected -- like the blonde guy said, "gotta give the people what they want!"
Right. The fight *was* pretty much inevitable, and choosing to leave wasn't really an option. You saw what happened when he walked to the door -- two guys blocked his path. This was an inescapable form of initiation into that atmosphere, but on a deeper level, the blonde guy's maintenance of his status. The dark-haired kid had kicked some guy's ass back in Idaho, and the video was getting a lot of attention on the internet. Blonde guy saw this, and felt that he had to assert himself; so, his girlfriend lures dark-haired guy to the party, and the games begin. It's also interesting how he ingratiates him the entire time, and even when challenging him, remains positive in demeanor. To me, this shows that his intentions weren't entirely malicious, and that the activity was just a necessity derived from the established power structure -- it was essentially his [dark-hair] fault for unwittingly placing himself in a position to fight, because that's just the way things are around there. Unfortunately, it took a cutting comment about his dad to provoke him, which only lessened his chances of success. But *shrug* it's the same shit that happened in courts back in the old days, only maybe with courtiers, or fencing or something.
4w3-5w6-8w7
This feud in the movie goes on and compiles, with the dark-haired guy beginning more serious mixed martial arts training, and learning life lessons from a wise teacher. He endures his vicissitudes along the way, but the entire movie is basically a culmination to his final victory over the blonde-haired guy. The theme is interesting; it's a sort of duality between what one would think is good and evil, but really two agents who represent continually-rotating sides of the same "coin," so to speak. Towards the end, the blonde-haired guy again lures the dark-haired guy into the fight competition by beating the shit out of his best friend, who is pretty much helpless. The dark-haired guy realizes that "not making a choice is just as bad as making a wrong one," and that, "everyone has their fight," which the potential event is clearly showing itself to be. He tells his teacher this, who has basically been living in shameful dormancy after a falling out with his father years ago, and the teacher finally accepts that we eventually have to face our problems, regardless of whether we hope to do the "right" thing or not. So, the dark-haired guy proceeds to fight in the tournament, and makes it to the finals; the blonde-haired guy does as well, but gets disqualified for gauging some dude's eye. So, they end up fighting in the parking lot outside the place. If you're interested...
A few days later at school, they see each other in the parking lot and nod, solidifying the mutual affirmation that they were never really that different at all; and that all it took was facing the inner tension that guided them to the climax, to see the intrinsic force each of them represented. Thus, they go on, and the coin keeps spinning, soon to land somewhere else, with another person at the top, and new initiations, but at least they are able to move forward.
4w3-5w6-8w7
And thus, you have it. While people usually seem prone to hate the blonde guy for being so ruthless and cold, they forget the fact that he was the most necessary component of the entire film. Jake was living a lie, shielding himself from facing his true problems. There had to be a completely ruthless force that would break him out of his shell, force him to see the futility of what he was doing, and ultimately surmount it all -- "fight his fight." It may not have been palatable at first, and the circumstances weren't completely under his control, but he ended up doing what he needed to do, and thus freed himself from himself.
4w3-5w6-8w7
i showed your clip to my sister and she got the full movie on netflix instant watch.
I watched it on and off. It was okay. But extremely Beta.
Classic Se ESTp, "Im fucking awesome, warlordyness"
Like i could imagine him as some thuggishly clever medieval knight.
classic.
The end is nigh
I think chronic boredom is infectious to all type. You sound depressedlots of talk...no action
i need some action in my life I'm bored to the point that I am becoming ill physically. i hate life. why am i destined to be so bored? it leads me to do things that get me in trouble. maybe i should just steal a car and get into a high speed chase and end up in jail. but then id be bored in jail. but if i get a nice job tommorow with some stroke of luck with this economy then id be bored at the job most likely. i hate being SLE, i want to be a type that never experiences the deadenning of chronic boredom. i dont even enjoy sex nemore. nothing thrills me....someone please help me i feel like a robot.
We are all out seeking happiness in the external world, as a way to avoid dealing with internal pain. I read this last night, on consumerism; we become so caught up trying to find our selves in 'things' that we loose ourselves in them.
Boredom is waiting for something 'better', being discontent with what you have. So you are rejecting yourself in the present for 'yourself' in the future' a you who doesn't feel like a robot. Therefore in that space of wanting 'fun' and the 'future you' you are creating an internal friction which leads to more boredom and pain.
So if instead you just accept being bored, being a robot, face it, don't rationalize it or beat yourself up over it or get shirty about it - you start healing. Feel the boredom inside, watch the thoughts but do not become attached; be aware of you as something separate from the thoughts and the boredom; you then become more free.
IEI, sp/sx 4w3.
It fits in very nicely into erotic roles of aggressor/victim.
That's probably why stuff like that is so appealing to (you guys?)
It's rubbish to me.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I don't think it had anything to do with erotic roles; it was two guys, for Christ's sake. If anything was appealing, it wasn't because some hardass ESTp broke someone out of his shell; the themes were much deeper than that.
Cherry-picking superficial associations and using them as "proof" to buttress your type, -doesn't.- I've noticed you do this a lot -- someone will make a statement about types, and then you'll take it and say how you don't relate to it. It's irrelevant whether you do or not, but you choosing to say so is revealing, nonetheless.
4w3-5w6-8w7
The day a Se HA advises a Se base on taking action is the day socionics fails.
EPICALLY.
What makes it even worse is that you're completely right, Gilly.
Haha, awesome.
Uhuh, I can see how that was being played out there. I'm not sure the blond's friendliness was that genuine - I think he was respectful and didn't underestimate the other guy, but I think all the little compliments were just as strategically aimed as the barbs about his father. Haha, yeah, it was probably far more prevalent in the old days before we got our contemporary distaste for violence. It's a fairly common motif in Shakespeare, after all, though words are used just as much as fists.Right. The fight *was* pretty much inevitable, and choosing to leave wasn't really an option. You saw what happened when he walked to the door -- two guys blocked his path. This was an inescapable form of initiation into that atmosphere, but on a deeper level, the blonde guy's maintenance of his status. The dark-haired kid had kicked some guy's ass back in Idaho, and the video was getting a lot of attention on the internet. Blonde guy saw this, and felt that he had to assert himself; so, his girlfriend lures dark-haired guy to the party, and the games begin. It's also interesting how he ingratiates him the entire time, and even when challenging him, remains positive in demeanor. To me, this shows that his intentions weren't entirely malicious, and that the activity was just a necessity derived from the established power structure -- it was essentially his [dark-hair] fault for unwittingly placing himself in a position to fight, because that's just the way things are around there. Unfortunately, it took a cutting comment about his dad to provoke him, which only lessened his chances of success. But *shrug* it's the same shit that happened in courts back in the old days, only maybe with courtiers, or fencing or something.
Thanks for taking the trouble to explain and link.
Hmm, yeah, I guess that's a fairly standard kind of theme in teen-aimed movies? Like, that you go on a journey of personal growth, then discover that you're just part of a longer continuum of renewal and cycling from immaturity to maturity. I mean, I'll take this medium over, say, cheerleaders anyday. I don't know, I think it would have been more interesting if the blond won the final fight. Just to show him that you may want something, you may try really hard to achieve it, but you can still fail because intentions isn't enough, and you're not a hero with a special destiny. You're just another punter having a go and failing anyway. Anyway, that's a different point.
allez cuisine!
You seem to be thinking that erotic roles only apply to romantic relationships.
Yet you do not realize the depth of my comments.If anything was appealing, it wasn't because some hardass ESTp broke someone out of his shell; the themes were much deeper than that.
Your whole interpretation of what I said is wrong.Cherry-picking superficial associations and using them as "proof" to buttress your type, -doesn't.- I've noticed you do this a lot -- someone will make a statement about types, and then you'll take it and say how you don't relate to it. It's irrelevant whether you do or not, but you choosing to say so is revealing, nonetheless.
You might want to stop thinking I'm some fool and look at other ways of what I'm trying to say. You're putting the cart (your assumption of me) infront of the horse, and drawing an incorrect conclusion.
I was not commenting on the types of the two individuals, at all.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Right, well the entire ingratiation seemed very courtier-esque. He did have a very keen grasp of how to play the game, and timed his moves so that once the kid was presented with the challenge, all the other options would have been eliminated. Good stuffHaha, awesome.
Uhuh, I can see how that was being played out there. I'm not sure the blond's friendliness was that genuine - I think he was respectful and didn't underestimate the other guy, but I think all the little compliments were just as strategically aimed as the barbs about his father. Haha, yeah, it was probably far more prevalent in the old days before we got our contemporary distaste for violence. It's a fairly common motif in Shakespeare, after all, though words are used just as much as fists.
I think that's one of the main themes. Although, I'm not sure that the blonde guy winning the final fight would have added a more realistic impact to the movie -- only because the process of personal growth and learning was very believable in the kid, and him winning made sense within that context. I do think that is a good point, though -- one which is lost on virtually all adolescent messages these days. You really don't always win simply because you go on some internal journey, or aspire to great things; I wish more movies were constructed to illustrate that, instead of imbuing kids with psychologically-destructive disney fairy tales.Thanks for taking the trouble to explain and link.
Hmm, yeah, I guess that's a fairly standard kind of theme in teen-aimed movies? Like, that you go on a journey of personal growth, then discover that you're just part of a longer continuum of renewal and cycling from immaturity to maturity. I mean, I'll take this medium over, say, cheerleaders anyday. I don't know, I think it would have been more interesting if the blond won the final fight. Just to show him that you may want something, you may try really hard to achieve it, but you can still fail because intentions isn't enough, and you're not a hero with a special destiny. You're just another punter having a go and failing anyway. Anyway, that's a different point.
They don't apply to two teenage martial artists in a movie, and they don't apply to my interpretation of them.
The problem is, if you had seen my point, you wouldn't have made the foolish connection of erotic roles.Yet you do not realize the depth of my comments.
My interpretation of what you said was based off of seeing it in light of what I said -- which was distorted.Your whole interpretation of what I said is wrong.
You might want to stop thinking I'm some fool and look at other ways of what I'm trying to say. You're putting the cart (your assumption of me) infront of the horse, and drawing an incorrect conclusion.
Well, if it was in reference to me, it's still wrong. There wasn't any INFp angst-fueled hardass Se-seeking within my critiques of the movie; it was about themes that existed outside of socionics.I was not commenting on the types of the two individuals, at all.
4w3-5w6-8w7
Cool. I'd been thinking possibly ISTj for my supervisor, but his mannerisms are eerily like that dude. That probably works better for his type anyway.
Oh, cool. Yeah, with Gigandet, ESTp seemed like a safe bet, just because he had those qualities, lol. But the 3 typing was based off of a resemblance he shared to other Fe-valuing male actors I've typed (twilight guy, emile hirsch) -- a certain smoothly competitive narcissism.
One odd thing, is that E3 actors always seem the most dynamic, in terms of melting themselves into roles. I guess that makes sense, given that their core fixation is about presentation and self-deceit, lol. Acting in film must just be a homecoming with more money involved
4w3-5w6-8w7
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