Gaining an appreciation/understanding of different quadra members

[Ezra]

Up until quite recently, I completely shunned my brother's behaviour as being disrespectful, disorganised and heavily in need of discipline and structure in order to quell his more negative behavioural patterns. While I still retain the belief that his behaviour is contrary to that of which I would most approve, I've learned to view him in a different light. He is staunchly Ne/Si, I am staunchly Se/Ni, so it's quite clear that we're never going to completely "get along". I need my own space a lot of the time when in proximity with him, and he needs to avoid my "commanding" behaviour; I have a tendency to attempt to organise his lifestyle, and also to heavily criticise his way of life.

Nonetheless, I've recognised that what I deem as complete lack of respect is merely a different kind of respect. What I value, he, evidently, does not. What to me might be a complete outrage or breach of conduct may to him simply be his expressing his freedom. Disorganisation is, in my eyes, the bane of anyone's existence, but in his eyes, it's much better to refuse to plan his entire life and enjoy a stress-free existence (and cope with issues as they arise) than to over-plan and never have any fun. For me, discipline and structure enable me to effectively complete my goals, but to attempt to discipline my brother or structure his life in any way would be to kill off his spirit. It would be to change him into something he cannot possibly be. Differing views, opinions, behaviours and attitudes aren't just the result of different people's experiences; they're based upon whole personalities.

Has anyone else entered this mindset of tolerance of others' values? I'd expect Se/Ni types to find it more of an obstacle than Ne/Si types, because in my experience Se/Ni individuals are less open-minded than Ne/Si individuals.

[1981slater]

I always say that extreme violence solves any problem

[FDG]

I really don't care about what other people do with their lives. Organized, disorganized, suicide, life, enjoyment, success, up to them, as long as they don't want my free time and my money.

[strrrng]

I've experienced the exact same thing with my Fi-ENFp brother and Ne-ENFp dad, Ezra. Did you happen to catch that duck-watching argument in my type thread a while back, lol? Anyway, I'm very much like you, a strong proponent of discipline; I believe the truly optimal way to live is with some sort of structure and control, because implementing said thing not only gives you real freedom but also builds fortitude and confidence. I agree that Se/Ni types tend to be more absolute than Ne/Si types; I frequently become irritated at their seemingly meandering preference in various things. It's about ends, not the process; it's about doing something hard because it will benefit you eventually, not just enjoying the present like a blithe fool. Anyway, I have become more open-minded of differing attitudes over time; no longer am I rebuking every person I deem lazy or incompetent, and the like. I can't say I don't occasionally get the urge to fuck something up when I see the abject fools at the weight room, but I've learned to temper this impulse a lot. In the end, we are who we are, and while one can gain an objective appreciation for others' preferences, that does not mean they need to accept or yield to them. I may peripherally notice the interesting difference in personality when I see my dad basking in the environmental interactions, watching ducks; but at the end of the day, I'm still gonna be the one who runs to the weight room, regardless.

[1981slater]

I used to believe that most people are more or less capable to have common sense and listen to reason. But after learning Socionics I noticed that some people will forever harbor an unwillingness to open their own eyes and accept things. I suppose it has made me more apt to give up or move on from people who are inherently different from me—to not waste my time on them.

An ISFj ex-friend of mine told me so

[FDG]

The thing is, that whenver I may feel the urge to say something to somebody else in regard to their way of life, I remind myself how much I suck in comparison to somebody else, which means it's better if I shut the fuck up.

[Steve]

I've experienced the exact same thing with my Fi-ENFp brother and Ne-ENFp dad, Ezra. Did you happen to catch that duck-watching argument in my type thread a while back, lol? Anyway, I'm very much like you, a strong proponent of discipline; I believe the truly optimal way to live is with some sort of structure and control, because implementing said thing not only gives you real freedom but also builds fortitude and confidence. I agree that Se/Ni types tend to be more absolute than Ne/Si types; I frequently become irritated at their seemingly meandering preference in various things. It's about ends, not the process; it's about doing something hard because it will benefit you eventually, not just enjoying the present like a blithe fool. Anyway, I have become more open-minded of differing attitudes over time; no longer am I rebuking every person I deem lazy or incompetent, and the like. I can't say I don't occasionally get the urge to fuck something up when I see the abject fools at the weight room, but I've learned to temper this impulse a lot. In the end, we are who we are, and while one can gain an objective appreciation for others' preferences, that does not mean they need to accept or yield to them. I may peripherally notice the interesting difference in personality when I see my dad basking in the environmental interactions, watching ducks; but at the end of the day, I'm still gonna be the one who runs to the weight room, regardless.

But other times aren't you completely unstructured and impulsive, in a way that could even unsettle me or your dad and brother?

[strrrng]

But other times aren't you completely unstructured and impulsive, in a way that could even unsettle me or your dad and brother?

Yeah, I am. But the the structure is what I believe to be optimal. Responding to transient impulses for the sake of intense stimulation is something I may get engulfed in at times, but I always find a way out of it, and regain control.

[Steve]

Yeah, I am. But the the structure is what I believe to be optimal. Responding to transient impulses for the sake of intense stimulation is something I may get engulfed in at times, but I always find a way out of it, and regain control.

True - the structure is probably more of an overriding theme and desire for you.

I think I am with structure as you are to impulsiveness. A lot of the time I find myself breaking things down and analyzing situations, but the overall desire for me is complete flexibility, freedom, flow, and spontaneity.

Edit: What I notice I do a lot is that I can have structure to set up situations that I know will have potential to take off with the free-flowing experience. Kind of like digging the hole in which the kids can play.

[Steve]

Up until quite recently, I completely shunned my brother's behaviour as being disrespectful, disorganised and heavily in need of discipline and structure in order to quell his more negative behavioural patterns. While I still retain the belief that his behaviour is contrary to that of which I would most approve, I've learned to view him in a different light. He is staunchly Ne/Si, I am staunchly Se/Ni, so it's quite clear that we're never going to completely "get along". I need my own space a lot of the time when in proximity with him, and he needs to avoid my "commanding" behaviour; I have a tendency to attempt to organise his lifestyle, and also to heavily criticise his way of life.

Nonetheless, I've recognised that what I deem as complete lack of respect is merely a different kind of respect. What I value, he, evidently, does not. What to me might be a complete outrage or breach of conduct may to him simply be his expressing his freedom. Disorganisation is, in my eyes, the bane of anyone's existence, but in his eyes, it's much better to refuse to plan his entire life and enjoy a stress-free existence (and cope with issues as they arise) than to over-plan and never have any fun. For me, discipline and structure enable me to effectively complete my goals, but to attempt to discipline my brother or structure his life in any way would be to kill off his spirit. It would be to change him into something he cannot possibly be. Differing views, opinions, behaviours and attitudes aren't just the result of different people's experiences; they're based upon whole personalities.

Has anyone else entered this mindset of tolerance of others' values? I'd expect Se/Ni types to find it more of an obstacle than Ne/Si types, because in my experience Se/Ni individuals are less open-minded than Ne/Si individuals.

I couldn't help but notice how dynamic and smooth your writing seemed fwiw - it does not seem like a static type to me.

Anyway, with socionics I've definitely grown to appreciate other quadra's styles, and not get offended if someone from another quadra does something that seems out of place for me. I now know much better where they're coming from and basically I think socionics along with other things I've looked into has resulted in just a general trend toward judging people less and just worrying about myself. People will be who they're going to be.

[Brilliand]

I couldn't help but notice how dynamic and smooth your writing seemed fwiw - it does not seem like a static type to me.

In my experience/opinion, dynamic/smooth writing is considered better writing, so a static type may well fake dynamic writing. It isn't that hard to do.

[Creepy-male]

It isn't that hard to do.

Excuse me for being an EP.

Did I tell you--oh, forget it.

I'll kill jx and 1981 later.

Back to the real world, however, I mean I like cheese of course, but I cannot stand gammas. They're wet blankets, but wet blankets with wings that want to drown and suffocate you--and worse: make you feel damp and icky.

This probably all comes from growing up with a feuding delta mother and gamma father (if I even typed them correctly, which I strongly doubt).

[1981slater]

Come here, then!!!!!!

[Creepy-male]

Come here, then!!!!!!

I never wanted this.

[implied]

In my experience/opinion, dynamic/smooth writing is considered better writing, so a static type may well fake dynamic writing. It isn't that hard to do.

i actually kind of agree with this, and it's one reason i don't like the dynamic/static dichotomy. it does seem as though most of the people i have thought to be "good writers" or most who would fall under that general category were what would be considered "dynamic" in socionics. so yeah, i wonder if it isn't fakeable by people who realize that good writing is very helpful in getting your point across.

[Brilliand]

Come here, then!!!!!!

What does Chuck Norris need guns for?

i actually kind of agree with this, and it's one reason i don't like the dynamic/static dichotomy. it does seem as though most of the people i have thought to be "good writers" or most who would fall under that general category were what would be considered "dynamic" in socionics. so yeah, i wonder if it isn't fakeable by people who realize that good writing is very helpful in getting your point across.

I actually like the static/dynamic dichotomy, although I don't use it to type people. It's just that the static/dynamic dichotomy draws the line between the mental ring and the vital ring, making it the most absolute dichotomy in Socionics. I've often thought that the four fundamental dichotomies should be E/I, S/N, T/F and S/D.