Introverted Intuition Ni of IEIs/INFps

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

There is IEI atheists you know, so describing Ni as 'mystical' or even 'spiritual' makes little sense.

Sure that's how it appears, but all Ni is - is introverted intuition. Which lends itself to deep reflection, self-analyziations etc, IEIs being excellent writers and philosophers, and able to understand/comprehend themselves and other individuals. Ni ego also accurately connects many ideas together, leading itself to what we call as creativity. It is timeless in a sense, compared to the very timely mechanics of Te. Just think, you can gather great insights from IEI stories even to do this day, and they can empower you (or have some other effect). But because efficiency always has to be changed/upgraded (more than the IEI can keep up with), a new manual/guidebook has to be updated quickly.

And since Ni makes us feel powerful, living in these timeless worlds isn't as painful as it would be to other types, so Eckhart's book, and a lot of other things- basically any guidebook telling IEIs to 'stop being so emo or fantasical, or live more in the present' isn't going to work too well. Eventually, the IEIs own Ni will get bored and they will seek 'to do something' by ourselves, but still when an action is accomplished, when IEIs are simply living, it will always be reflected later to try to make some meaning off of it. Otherwise how could we accurately learn from history?

If we want to take socionics seriously, we kinda have to cut out the mumbo jumbo talk. Yes, there is such thing as estoerics, 'walking in between worlds' but it's a completely mental activity, there's nothing truly supernatural about it, even though it looks that way.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

isn't really force, it's personal willpower and motivation.... in Se ego types though, it comes across as pretty forceful just because they're so good at it. But at its core base, Se is just willpower. And that is the missing link for IEIs to simply LIVE, willpower and motivation.

Ni needs Se to simply live. Se needs Ni to live without dying too fast.

I know A LOT of SLEs that simply die in motorcycle accidents at young ages, because they had no Ni in their lives. All that potential, essentially wasted. And if I am not getting Se, I just won't do anything besides basic bodily functions. (again, all that potential....wasted)

[shorebreaker]

It has been said by some that iNtuition cannot be described in words, but I say nay! Any psychological phenomenon can be described. After years of reflection, I have put together a conceptual understanding of what introverted intuition is and entails.

When you talk to an INFp, they are aware that you are talking to their persona. They consciously (on some level) sculpt that persona, according to their social environment. This makes an INFp very aware of their own projection and cognitive dissonance in the social world. They never adhere to any idea (social norms included) without question; this is because deep down, they compare information almost inadvertently with time, which, if you think about it, is really the only constant thing in the world. It is the most constant (if not reliable) point of reference; this could have something to do with why Ni's are consistently some of the most intelligent and adaptable of the types (INTps are statistically the most intelligent type). Some Ni's are more apt to express their deeper convictions, but confidence really varies among individuals. Ni's certainly have a greater capacity for confidence. Ni is a powerful function, but it also needs lots of information to grow. The more of the world an Ni sees, the more they realize that they can hold in their heads; an Ni can use their imagination to play through scenarios with ease, and from a very holistic viewpoint. Essentially, the more they experience, the more they realize they are capable of imagining. INFps often use their imaginations to premeditate social encounters; the movies in their heads are often uncannily accurate because, by understanding the mechanisms by which people adhere to social conventions, they can capture the essence of a person and most of their nuances, almost entirely objectively. They actively seek out their own predispositions and attempt to be rid of them, so their imaginations will be more accurate. Deep down, an Ni has a judgment of you, but depending on how much stake they put in social relationships, they may or may not voice their criticisms. If an Ni has been raised in such a family that they learn they have no way to turn, nobody to fall back on, they may never realize the nature of their true opinions toward people; they are slaves to their persona, and they know it. Cognitiveprocesses.com says about extraverted feeling, "Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs." They may wonder which part of them is their real self, when it is in fact the part that wonders. A mentally strong INFp can be as passionate or dispassionate as they choose, since they understand the expected interpretations of, and reactions to, comic and dramatic situations. Often they can bullshit their way halfway through a conversation by laughing where they ought to (Ni applied to Fe gives a sense of how a person will react to something, and so when they will laugh), and then catch up. This isn't to say that they aren't affected at all, deep down, by others; they are one of the most sensitive types (INFj is arguably the most sensitive). They may, however, be moved for different reasons. INFps gather expected interpretations by listening closely to people's conversations, but especially the descriptors they use. Often fantastic at poetry, they pick up on differences in the ways individuals interpret things and hold them somewhat consciously in their minds; this makes them excellent in mixed company, especially if they've thought about the situation beforehand.

I suspect that the prefrontal cortex embodies Ni. Among other things (executive functions, control of emotions), the prefrontal cortex is a virtual reality simulator. I also suspect that there is a direct biological relationship accounting for the mutual exclusion of Ni and Si in the ego. My biggest idea is that perhaps, since through our evolutionary timeline, Si (physical memory) was one of the first things to develop (necessary to act after the fact, and to store that action in case it happens later, so one can react faster), and Ni has come only lately (which would make sense if the prefrontal cortex embodies Ni, because the brain has evolved from the base at the back of the skull, to the top and the front), that it can be extremely difficult to control both our fantasies and our visceral reactions to them at the same time. When we imagine things, we attach the same emotion to them that we would if the thing were actually happening. This accounts for both an Ni's natural uneasiness about their internal physical state and for the "law of attraction" paradigm. The INFp can imagine both emotionally positive and negative scenarios, and it can be difficult to separate one's feeling right now from the feelings they are experiencing in the scenario. But a strong INFp can keep a positive disposition in his thoughts by reassuring himself that, "The best way to fail is to expect yourself to, and vice versa." I suspect that the things the INTp imagines have little to no emotional charge. While sensing enables man to act very quickly after the fact, Ni enables man to act before the fact, if you will.

Se means acting out the scenarios Ni imagines; for INFps this is imagining social encounters, and for INTps it's imagining something else. I don't totally understand what it could be, honestly. But they do say INTps are the most likely to be socially awkward, so they must be imagining everything BUT people.

**many of you may not agree with this; some people like to think there is something mystical about emotion, and that it is what makes us special**

On Fi: since Fi is introverted emotion, and emotions are evolved patterns of behavior (like physical memories, Si, that have become so internalized that they become biological) whose purpose is to solve problems (i.e. what would we do if we didn't feel fear when we were about to get hit by a bus), this would mean that emotion developed earlier in our evolutionary timeline than Ni, and so Ni can preside over it with enough concentration. Buddhists preach that, during meditation, one must be aware of one's thoughts, but not associate the emotion with the physical feeling of arousal that one finds they associate with a specific memory or piece of mental imagery. They assert that one must not judge one's thoughts, or the thoughts of others, when practicing mindfulness; they must only observe.

It pains me to hear that often people just don't understand why others "space out". Ever since 5th and 6th grade, I remember not understanding why nobody understood what I was doing. When high school came around, I stopped getting sad and started getting mad! Since I was so vocal about it, " Don't wave your fucking hand in front of someone while they're thinking that's rude," people just sort of accepted it. When I'm at parties people understand. "That's stretch, he's just thinking."

[redbaron]

I think that's pretty good. The more Ni is around Se the more they see their own value and become more & more confident that they have something to offer and then their self esteem grows.

[Aiss]

This is good. I think there's relatively little Fe to filter out, too.

[Beautiful sky]

I am only partly prepared to present this argument but it doesn't seem like anything you wrote is in regards to Ni, but the following:

Just because you can see events in time that doesn't mean you're NiFe; all elements have to come together and you also have to look outside yourself, even to your dual's functions to see what from them you need to supplement you and your needs. Remember, we often can not recognize Dual Seeking (DS) and we're blind to it because it's one function we would give to our duals to do;

They never adhere to any idea without question;

Usually, realists and S types do this; Ne types sometimes like to run with interesting ideas.

this is because deep down, they compare information almost inadvertently with time, which, if you think about it, is really the only constant thing in the world. It is the most constant (if not reliable) point of reference; this could have something to do with why Ni's are consistently some of the most intelligent and adaptable of the types (INTps are statistically the most intelligent type). Some Ni's are more apt to express their deeper convictions, but confidence really varies among individuals. Ni's certainly have a greater capacity for confidence. Ni is a powerful function, but it also needs lots of information to grow.

Seeing information is Te; IEI don't focus on information because it's their Point of Least Resistance, but EII value it as in they enjoy being around someone who can use this function well.

The more of the world an Ni sees, the more they realize that they can hold in their heads; an Ni can use their imagination to play through scenarios with ease,

Evaluating outcomes is Ni PoLR in LSE and ESE types. "He perceives time in an undifferentiated manner: the past, present, and future are all perceived as being in or near the present. When talking about the future, especially one's longer-term plan), the individual treats it as if it were accessible today and often is not aware of all the developments that must happen first."

and from a very holistic viewpoint. Essentially, the more they experience, the more they realize they are capable of imagining. INFps often use their imaginations to premeditate social encounters; the movies in their heads are often uncannily accurate because, by understanding the mechanisms by which people adhere to social conventions, they can capture the essence of a person and most of their nuances, almost entirely objectively.

Actually observation of external qualities of things is more in the zone of extroverted functions like Te, Ne, etc.

Introverted functions deal with the how pieces of external info is subjective.

They actively seek out their own predispositions and attempt to be rid of them, so their imaginations will be more accurate.

Accuracy and concern for it is Te. Fi's value it.



IEI dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.

Therefore, IEI can be really messy with regards to Te and Te information. They much prefer Ti; taking terms and reconciling or eliminating variables to make a system

[silverchris9]

They may wonder which part of them is their real self, when it is in fact the part that wonders.

This was a good description overall, but this part I especially keyed on. I think this is a great observation, and I completely agree. (alsothisisinwaltWhitmanjustFYI). I think it also relates to Ni's consciousness of time, the quest to find the stable part of the personality that evades change, to overcome heraclitean flux. I also like the idea of experiencing more in order to improve your conception of the world.

[crazedrat]

Seeing information is Te.

No it isn't. You're mentally redefining the word information, imagining it in terms of Te. Information is alot more like raw data.

[jughead]

"te=accuracy" Hah is the difference between Ti and Te like the scientific definitions of precision and accuracy?

[Skeptic]

...

Maritsa, understand that when words like objective, understanding and information are used they are not automatically Te. These words in OP were used to describe skill; they are skilled at being accurate/correct in certain things. That does not automatically imply that this skill is Te, especially when the skill is associated with people as it is in OP.

OP was saying that because the IEI feels people so well, they are able to predict their reactions to the IEI's behavior, thus the IEI can be 'accurate' in predicting reactions and defining people as a whole.

As for your other points, they are mostly taken out of context and wrongly attacking parts of the description. Ex. the last quote you made described an IEI who exists without somebody to fall back upon, and thus doesn't describe a normal IEI blablabla.

[Creepy-male]

What was referred to as information was more like perception/experience/event... rather than data.... which is Te... Te is more logical and statistical... like associating facts and figures and properties to things then mulling over them logically. Irrational functions are based on perception without ethical/logical judgments. I'd say people who excel at having a giant rolodex in their head of facts and do well at trivia have Te at work somehow. Gamma NT's have Ni working with Te... so all these trivia elements gets spun together by Ni in the manner described in this post... Gamma NT's make good engineers for this reason... they know the facts of something... say price, cost, time, weight, and so forth and they begin imagining how these logical elements compose the entire system which they spin together with Ni.

Also IEI's don't prefer much logic either way, they are an ethical type... but they value Ti... which usually manifests itself as a preoccupation with systems, they are likely to pay attention to how logical systems impact things and want to impact these systems, but they prefer to focus on their feelings over the logical system architecture. Ti is the locus of there hidden agenda.

Just saying if your going to apply socionics correctly you should understand how Ti in IEIs work and what Te means and how it can work with Ni to produce Gamma NT egos.

[Creepy-male]

they are skilled at being accurate/correct in certain things.

I'd say this is correct, but I'd like to mention its more like....

accuracy of imagination/intuitive conception of tying together what they've seen or understood

rather than factual/logical accuracy, like knowing the accurate facts/figures/statistics

Only in gamma NTs are you combining these elements...

In the IEI you are combining this accurate conception with Fe data, emotional cues on the surface... which is why they are so perceptive of people/emotional things.

[Linas]

This is very good.

[strrrng]

I like this, a lot. Seems like you really get us.

I'm spaced off to the point of embarrassing myself. I often apologize to people for not being aware of my surroundings. The other day I apologized for always being so "dumb" to a friend, and he said I never came off as dumb, because he knew people who were actually dumb lol, and that I was nothing like them. He said that I came off as intelligent and that it seemed like I was constantly in my head thinking about something. It's always nice to hear that people can actually see this.

haha... it is refreshing. an SLE coworker actually told me something similar the other day, not without calling me a "spacecake." I just said that space was fun. but absent-mindedness isn't an absolute for me. if there's a task that requires alertness and fast movement, my mental world will contract and things become pretty easy.

[shorebreaker]

I am only partly prepared to present this argument but it doesn't seem like anything you wrote is in regards to Ni, but the following:

Just because you can see events in time that doesn't mean you're NiFe; all elements have to come together and you also have to look outside yourself, even to your dual's functions to see what from them you need to supplement you and your needs. Remember, we often can not recognize Dual Seeking (DS) and we're blind to it because it's one function we would give to our duals to do;




Usually, realists and S types do this; Ne types sometimes like to run with interesting ideas.



Seeing information is Te; IEI don't focus on information because it's their Point of Least Resistance, but EII value it as in they enjoy being around someone who can use this function well.



Evaluating outcomes is Ni PoLR in LSE and ESE types. "He perceives time in an undifferentiated manner: the past, present, and future are all perceived as being in or near the present. When talking about the future, especially one's longer-term plan), the individual treats it as if it were accessible today and often is not aware of all the developments that must happen first."



Actually observation of external qualities of things is more in the zone of extroverted functions like Te, Ne, etc.

Introverted functions deal with the how pieces of external info is subjective.



Accuracy and concern for it is Te. Fi's value it.



IEI dislike for dealing with issues involving efficiency, productivity, and factual accuracy of statements made; statements are made according to input from other functions, not from double-checks against external facts which are seen as of lesser relevance to the issue at hand. Types with this function lack confidence in their ability to find relevant information in outside sources.

Therefore, IEI can be really messy with regards to Te and Te information. They much prefer Ti; taking terms and reconciling or eliminating variables to make a system

Actually Te is the application of algorithms to maximize efficiency

Extroverted logic - Wikisocion

[shorebreaker]

haha... it is refreshing. an SLE coworker actually told me something similar the other day, not without calling me a "spacecake." I just said that space was fun. but absent-mindedness isn't an absolute for me. if there's a task that requires alertness and fast movement, my mental world will contract and things become pretty easy.

LOL I love space. I would live there if I could. As long as there were women.

[shorebreaker]

What was referred to as information was more like perception/experience/event... rather than data.... which is Te... Te is more logical and statistical... like associating facts and figures and properties to things then mulling over them logically. Irrational functions are based on perception without ethical/logical judgments. I'd say people who excel at having a giant rolodex in their head of facts and do well at trivia have Te at work somehow. Gamma NT's have Ni working with Te... so all these trivia elements gets spun together by Ni in the manner described in this post... Gamma NT's make good engineers for this reason... they know the facts of something... say price, cost, time, weight, and so forth and they begin imagining how these logical elements compose the entire system which they spin together with Ni.

Also IEI's don't prefer much logic either way, they are an ethical type... but they value Ti... which usually manifests itself as a preoccupation with systems, they are likely to pay attention to how logical systems impact things and want to impact these systems, but they prefer to focus on their feelings over the logical system architecture. Ti is the locus of there hidden agenda.

Just saying if your going to apply socionics correctly you should understand how Ti in IEIs work and what Te means and how it can work with Ni to produce Gamma NT egos.

I wouldn't say they don't prefer it, they just don't put as much work into it as they wish they could. Quoth wikisocion, "Help in this element is appreciated, but past a certain point is seen as excessive." But I guess you hit that nail on the head with, "...they prefer to focus on their feelings over the logical system architecture."

[Beautiful sky]

Actually Te is the application of algorithms to maximize efficiency

Extroverted logic - Wikisocion

I know and it's done in activity; do you plan things and when you do so do you apply a methodical approach?

[Creepy-male]

I wouldn't say they don't prefer it, they just don't put as much work into it as they wish they could. Quoth wikisocion, "Help in this element is appreciated, but past a certain point is seen as excessive." But I guess you hit that nail on the head with, "...they prefer to focus on their feelings over the logical system architecture."

yea that's one interpretation of what a "weak" function means... there are several... sometimes they don't prefer the function, sometimes they just don't spend to much time developing it etc.... either way what wikisocion says is accurate too... if your not naturally inclined to think logically, after a certain point it becomes excessive and draining, same with how emotional expression can become draining to thinkers I would think.

[shorebreaker]

I know and it's done in activity; do you plan things and when you do so do you apply a methodical approach?

I enjoy situations of mixed company, and while I won't usually outright say, "Let's get these people together on this night," I actively encourage such activities. I wouldn't call my approach methodical, but I always want to know who's going to be there.

[shorebreaker]

if you're not naturally inclined to think logically, after a certain point it becomes excessive and draining, same with how emotional expression can become draining to thinkers I would think.

i agree, this is a really good way of putting it

[Beautiful sky]

I enjoy situations of mixed company, and while I won't usually outright say, "Let's get these people together on this night," I actively encourage such activities. I wouldn't call my approach methodical, but I always want to know who's going to be there.

Yes and methodical approaches is what Te is.

[shorebreaker]

Yes and methodical approaches is what Te is.

fair enough

[shorebreaker]

This is good. I think there's relatively little Fe to filter out, too.

Do you mean you think I did a good description of Ni?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Wow. This was so good. You did a really good job. I mean that. You put real effort into this, I can tell - instead of just stereotyping me as some pathetic emo fag, you actually want to understand how I work without emotionally sabotaging me and treating me like shit, and that in turn helps me figure my own self out more too. Bravo! You've managed to be intellectual without coming across as an ass. You managed to show compassion and heart, without being too ditsy. Very professional and classy. Like Tina Fey!

I'll comment on all you talked about on my next post.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

It has been said by some that iNtuition cannot be described in words, but I say nay! Any psychological phenomenon can be described. After years of reflection, I have put together a conceptual understanding of what introverted intuition is and entails.

When you talk to an INFp, they are aware that you are talking to their persona.

Yep. Nice.

They consciously (on some level) sculpt that persona, according to their social environment.

Yeah. It's not conscious or unconscious it's more umm 'semi-conscious?' lol. That's all true, because even though it feels that we're 'just being ourselves' we are morphing to the envrionment and popular culture quite a bit.

This makes an INFp very aware of their own projection and cognitive dissonance in the social world.

Yeah.

They never adhere to any idea (social norms included) without question; this is because deep down, they compare information almost inadvertently with time, which, if you think about it, is really the only constant thing in the world.

Yeah. Ideals are the enemy, I mean Oscar Wilde said it, and I also did too in my 16types adventure story. And I don't know if it's the only constant thing, but it's just how we work. We don't really intellectualize ourselves in the way that other people intellectualize us. We're too 'raw' for that or something.

It is the most constant (if not reliable) point of reference; this could have something to do with why Ni's are consistently some of the most intelligent and adaptable of the types (INTps are statistically the most intelligent type). Some Ni's are more apt to express their deeper convictions, but confidence really varies among individuals.

Yeah. Confidence is a tricky thing. Without fear, there can be no courage, but confidence is more of something you either have or haven't, I think. A lot of it is just genetic, I think. Most people need other people to feel good about themselves.... even if they don't think so or not. I can be courageous at times, but I'm not very confident. =p

Ni's certainly have a greater capacity for confidence.

Yeah, but not a greater capacity, but a greater need. It has to be this way because of how vacuumized and 'removed' Se/Ni is compared to Si/Ne, like I talked about in another post. INFps do benefit a lot from genuine compliments, and honest encouragement.

Ni is a powerful function, but it also needs lots of information to grow. The more of the world an Ni sees, the more they realize that they can hold in their heads; an Ni can use their imagination to play through scenarios with ease, and from a very holistic viewpoint.

Yeah. All true. It's sort of like this one big bang gonzo throat fuck strike chord with no tempo. It's powerful, rawly, but it lacks direction and finesse. It's really crude.

Essentially, the more they experience, the more they realize they are capable of imagining. INFps often use their imaginations to premeditate social encounters; the movies in their heads are often uncannily accurate because, by understanding the mechanisms by which people adhere to social conventions, they can capture the essence of a person and most of their nuances, almost entirely objectively.

YES YES YES YES very true. That's why I roll my eyes at people who say I need to go out and more and do more things. LoL why, when I'm already so accurate generally. It's usually some specific Se-ish thing though, that I have to realize why it's important, otherwise I just wanna write gay stories all day in my room.

They actively seek out their own predispositions and attempt to be rid of them, so their imaginations will be more accurate.

Yep. Even if you are a magical, imaginative guy- nobody wants to be thought of as a weightless airy fag with no true core.

Deep down, an Ni has a judgment of you, but depending on how much stake they put in social relationships, they may or may not voice their criticisms.

I have a big heart, but I will personally bad mouth ANYONE (and I do mean anyone), but then again all gay guys are like that. When society has told you for so long that who you are is 'inferior' to others, you're kinda oblivious to other people's pain because you're too busy dealing with your own. They didn't give a fuck about me, I ain't gonna give a fuck about them! =p We're victimishly selfish like that. And we love to gossip. My friend said I shouldn't assume that other people are out to get me though, maybe she's right, but I can't help it. It's not like I want you to be all fuzzy teddy bear ish if you don't really mean it. (ugh people being 'fake nice' to me is something I can't really stand)

But I don't think you should be afraid to hang out with me, just because I will be brutally honest about you if you break my heart and do anything that emotionally hurts me. =)

If an Ni has been raised in such a family that they learn they have no way to turn, nobody to fall back on, they may never realize the nature of their true opinions toward people; they are slaves to their persona, and they know it.

It depends. My parents are alphas and we clashed on Ne valuing vs. Ni valuing, but we also have shared Fe and Ti to fall back on. Soo yeah they annoyed me sometimes, but having shared Fe/Ti helped me feel at least comfortable. Ideally, nobody can help me, I mean really true down rawly help me- like another Beta can.

Cognitiveprocesses.com says about extraverted feeling, "Often with this process, we feel pulled to be responsible and take care of others’ feelings, sometimes to the point of not separating our feelings from theirs." They may wonder which part of them is their real self, when it is in fact the part that wonders. A mentally strong INFp can be as passionate or dispassionate as they choose, since they understand the expected interpretations of, and reactions to, comic and dramatic situations. Often they can bullshit their way halfway through a conversation by laughing where they ought to (Ni applied to Fe gives a sense of how a person will react to something, and so when they will laugh), and then catch up. This isn't to say that they aren't affected at all, deep down, by others; they are one of the most sensitive types (INFj is arguably the most sensitive).

The way I look at is, I will only cry for myself, unless I know for sure that you cry for me. Why would I worry about anybody that doesn't worry about me? Delta matrydom really confuses and annoys me. And yeah IEIs will test other people's love by being unnecessarily withdrawn - it's more of a game to get you to throat fuck us though.

They may, however, be moved for different reasons. INFps gather expected interpretations by listening closely to people's conversations, but especially the descriptors they use. Often fantastic at poetry, they pick up on differences in the ways individuals interpret things and hold them somewhat consciously in their minds; this makes them excellent in mixed company, especially if they've thought about the situation beforehand.

I agree with everything here except being good with poetry. I think that's more of a technical skill, that's not type related. Poetry isn't like other forms of art and writing, it takes a lot of practice to be good at IMNSHO. I think a more accurate statement is 'INFps are fantastic at writing.' Which we are, although there is many forms of writing. Maybe infps are more likely to be a fantastic poet then uhh, an entp but it's hard to say.

I suspect that the prefrontal cortex embodies Ni. Among other things (executive functions, control of emotions), the prefrontal cortex is a virtual reality simulator.

Probably. Where is that in your brain anyway? The middle part of my brain usually hurts the worst, whereas the front and back feel the best.

(more to come later)

[Aiss]

Do you mean you think I did a good description of Ni?

Ni-base mindset, more like. I mean that while obviously to some degree it was affected by focus on people's emotions, Fe theme, it's very accurate for NiTe. HLD put it well earlier, saying difference is in Te or Fe data. That's how I feel about it, at any rate. It's a very introspective view of Ni as dominant function, one that isn't probably much use in typing others, where people usually go by external clues and sometimes find it easier to narrow it down to mirrors - like "Beta NF", as opposed to kindred - by shared base function, which is how Jung's original 8 types were determined.

[shorebreaker]

Wow. This was so good. You did a really good job. I mean that. You put real effort into this, I can tell - instead of just stereotyping me as some pathetic emo fag, you actually want to understand how I work without emotionally sabotaging me and treating me like shit, and that in turn helps me figure my own self out more too. Bravo! You've managed to be intellectual without coming across as an ass. You managed to show compassion and heart, without being too ditsy. Very professional and classy. Like Tina Fey!

I'll comment on all you talked about on my next post.

wow! thanks so much, i appreciate it

[xerx]

I'm an Ne dominant, so I don't have much to add to this thread. But that description was pretty enlightening. Thank you.

[shorebreaker]

Yep. Nice.



Yeah. It's not conscious or unconscious it's more umm 'semi-conscious?' lol. That's all true, because even though it feels that we're 'just being ourselves' we are morphing to the envrionment and popular culture quite a bit.



Yeah.



Yeah. Ideals are the enemy, I mean Oscar Wilde said it, and I also did too in my 16types adventure story. And I don't know if it's the only constant thing, but it's just how we work. We don't really intellectualize ourselves in the way that other people intellectualize us. We're too 'raw' for that or something.



Yeah. Confidence is a tricky thing. Without fear, there can be no courage, but confidence is more of something you either have or haven't, I think. A lot of it is just genetic, I think. Most people need other people to feel good about themselves.... even if they don't think so or not. I can be courageous at times, but I'm not very confident. =p



Yeah, but not a greater capacity, but a greater need. It has to be this way because of how vacuumized and 'removed' Se/Ni is compared to Si/Ne, like I talked about in another post. INFps do benefit a lot from genuine compliments, and honest encouragement.



Yeah. All true. It's sort of like this one big bang gonzo throat fuck strike chord with no tempo. It's powerful, rawly, but it lacks direction and finesse. It's really crude.



YES YES YES YES very true. That's why I roll my eyes at people who say I need to go out and more and do more things. LoL why, when I'm already so accurate generally. It's usually some specific Se-ish thing though, that I have to realize why it's important, otherwise I just wanna write gay stories all day in my room.



Yep. Even if you are a magical, imaginative guy- nobody wants to be thought of as a weightless airy fag with no true core.



I have a big heart, but I will personally bad mouth ANYONE (and I do mean anyone), but then again all gay guys are like that. When society has told you for so long that who you are is 'inferior' to others, you're kinda oblivious to other people's pain because you're too busy dealing with your own. They didn't give a fuck about me, I ain't gonna give a fuck about them! =p We're victimishly selfish like that. And we love to gossip. My friend said I shouldn't assume that other people are out to get me though, maybe she's right, but I can't help it. It's not like I want you to be all fuzzy teddy bear ish if you don't really mean it. (ugh people being 'fake nice' to me is something I can't really stand)

But I don't think you should be afraid to hang out with me, just because I will be brutally honest about you if you break my heart and do anything that emotionally hurts me. =)



It depends. My parents are alphas and we clashed on Ne valuing vs. Ni valuing, but we also have shared Fe and Ti to fall back on. Soo yeah they annoyed me sometimes, but having shared Fe/Ti helped me feel at least comfortable. Ideally, nobody can help me, I mean really true down rawly help me- like another Beta can.



The way I look at is, I will only cry for myself, unless I know for sure that you cry for me. Why would I worry about anybody that doesn't worry about me? Delta matrydom really confuses and annoys me. And yeah IEIs will test other people's love by being unnecessarily withdrawn - it's more of a game to get you to throat fuck us though.



I agree with everything here except being good with poetry. I think that's more of a technical skill, that's not type related. Poetry isn't like other forms of art and writing, it takes a lot of practice to be good at IMNSHO. I think a more accurate statement is 'INFps are fantastic at writing.' Which we are, although there is many forms of writing. Maybe infps are more likely to be a fantastic poet then uhh, an entp but it's hard to say.



Probably. Where is that in your brain anyway? The middle part of my brain usually hurts the worst, whereas the front and back feel the best.

(more to come later)

explication of poetry is a linguistic skill; INFps are unrivaled in their understanding of tropes because of their natural tendency to acknowledge multiple conceptual standpoints. as far as the writing, INFps and INFjs tend to have a penchant for it but these skills vary interpersonally for sure. probably shouldn't have brought up poetry for that reason

this is some fantastic dialogue thanks for reading so closely i appreciate it! i can't stand people being fake nice either. people being fake in general really grinds my gears

[shorebreaker]

Ni-base mindset, more like. I mean that while obviously to some degree it was affected by focus on people's emotions, Fe theme, it's very accurate for NiTe. HLD put it well earlier, saying difference is in Te or Fe data. That's how I feel about it, at any rate. It's a very introspective view of Ni as dominant function, one that isn't probably much use in typing others, where people usually go by external clues and sometimes find it easier to narrow it down to mirrors - like "Beta NF", as opposed to kindred - by shared base function, which is how Jung's original 8 types were determined.

I think I know what you mean, I'm definitely trying to narrow in on just Ni.

honestly sometimes i'm not sure if i'm dominant Ni, but Ni fascinates me either way. one thing i've found is that since you can't really separate the dominant function from its vocational (auxiliary) function, one kinda has to think of Ni as an "applied function", where the "subject" is either Fe or Te.

I found this on INTJ forum:
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Originally Posted by jndiii

Intuition is all about relationships between ideas. Ni and Ne work with these relationships in different, complimentary ways.

Ne will start with an idea (or observation), the idea implies relationships. Ne follows the relationships to new ideas. In general, this tends to generate more and more new ideas.

Ni will start with multiple ideas, and determine the relationships between them. The relationships between ideas tend to eliminate ideas, rather than generate new ideas. With several competing ideas, the process will often leave only one "real" idea that passes.

However, Ni can also leave one with zero ideas: none of the ideas are "true." In this case, Ni starts investigating the nearby "space of ideas" for similar ideas to those being investigated, looking for an idea that is suggested by the original ideas, but will actually turn out to be true. In this case, Ni has determined that all of one's assumptions are at least slightly false, and thus looks for a new, true assumption.

Ni "gives you premonitions" by using the process as I outline above to look at what is true now and in the past, and uses the relationships between many ideas to suggest a limited set of probable outcomes, or even predict an unusual outcome by perceiving that an assumption is incorrect and replacing it with a new, true assumption.

Ni doesn't exactly "randomly connect information." The process isn't random. There is a reason that you are connecting the information. The feeling of randomness arises from the conclusions often being surprising and ironically "non-intuitive." Especially in the case of Ni discovering false assumptions, the new true assumption will imply things that could never have been derived from the false assumption.

Similarly, Ni acts as that "metaphorical x-ray" by zeroing in on false assumptions, and determining true assumptions that, in the case of an Fe user, would determine the true motivations of others, or in the case of a Te user, would determine a truth about how a process (natural or manmade) really works.

Ni is not mysterious in and of itself, but the way it works easily eludes explanation, because, well, it's intuition, and intuition is full of guesses and hunches whose cause cannot easily be addressed. However, the kinds of things it does can be understood after the fact, especially in the INTJ case using Te: Ni quickly arrives at a correct solution, and Te can objectively analyze initial data and assumptions, final data and correct conclusions, and show how the ideas all relate. (With Fe, it tends to retain a mysterious character, because the observations are subjective.)
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/agree^

I've noticed that once an Ni has examined enough points of view and distanced themselves, it leaves behind a residual idea that can difficult to describe in words; it's almost like a unity of subject and object. it's like a limit, in calculus, or something; all these standpoints approach a certain concept, and the more standpoints you've seen, the clearer the concept becomes! I have yet to consolidate this part of Ni with my OP. It also seems consistent with the post I referenced above.

Sometimes I think that there's a 3rd force involved though, and that is the drive; to what end am I using my Ni on social structures? For me it's sometimes to just enjoy sharing laughs amidst clever conversation, but often it's to get a girl. When I don't feel like doing either of these things, I often find myself doing activities reminiscent of Ti or Si, like reading psychology or fantasy, playing the guitar or listening to music. What information element(s) would you associate with reading fantasy, playing WoW, watching adventure movies etc.? They almost seem like Ne to me but I don't know.

[Aiss]

I suspect that the prefrontal cortex embodies Ni. Among other things (executive functions, control of emotions), the prefrontal cortex is a virtual reality simulator. I also suspect that there is a direct biological relationship accounting for the mutual exclusion of Ni and Si in the ego. My biggest idea is that perhaps, since through our evolutionary timeline, Si (physical memory) was one of the first things to develop (necessary to act after the fact, and to store that action in case it happens later, so one can react faster), and Ni has come only lately (which would make sense if the prefrontal cortex embodies Ni, because the brain has evolved from the base at the back of the skull, to the top and the front), that it can be extremely difficult to control both our fantasies and our visceral reactions to them at the same time. When we imagine things, we attach the same emotion to them that we would if the thing were actually happening. This accounts for both an Ni's natural uneasiness about their internal physical state and for the "law of attraction" paradigm. The INFp can imagine both emotionally positive and negative scenarios, and it can be difficult to separate one's feeling right now from the feelings they are experiencing in the scenario. But a strong INFp can keep a positive disposition in his thoughts by reassuring himself that, "The best way to fail is to expect yourself to, and vice versa." I suspect that the things the INTp imagines have little to no emotional charge. While sensing enables man to act very quickly after the fact, Ni enables man to act before the fact, if you will.

Se means acting out the scenarios Ni imagines; for INFps this is imagining social encounters, and for INTps it's imagining something else. I don't totally understand what it could be, honestly. But they do say INTps are the most likely to be socially awkward, so they must be imagining everything BUT people.

I agree with a lot of this on psychological level, except for lack of emotional charge in case of INTp's imagination. They may even be more free with emotions in their inner world than in real situations, where they often instinctively suppress them (unhealthy but not uncommon, I fear). It's complicated but I'll try to explain how I see it - I think Fe isn't so much responsible for emotionality itself, which varies anyway, it is rather the element best suited for processing this type of information. You originally described how INFps will know how a person will react, how they work - it's partly thanks to Ni, but also to Fe. I suspect Fe is largely responsible for non-verbal communication - not exactly "reading between the lines", but body language and such - that is, it's able to read a person's internal state based on these signals without necessarily consciously analyzing them. At any rate, it provides essential information about people and their reactions. INTps might (and do) imagine social situations, but these are unreliable except when very familiar anyway. Tendency for social awkwardness stems from the fact that they can barely read and send signals - in effect, communicate - in what I think is a Fe way, as described earlier. So they often send wrong signals and are misinterpreted, because Fe types attempt to read them as if they were communicating this way, sometimes even taking this as more important than actual words - a mistake when dealing with INTp. They know it, more or less consciously, and often try to suppress Fe expression, since they're bad at it to begin with. Lacking sufficient understanding of others' emotionality, they're better at imagining a turn of events, especially when it isn't strongly dependent on some individual's emotional decisions, than a specific (social) event where everything depends on many individual people's spontaneous reactions.

[Beautiful sky]

Wow. This was so good. You did a really good job. I mean that. You put real effort into this, I can tell - instead of just stereotyping me as some pathetic emo fag, you actually want to understand how I work without emotionally sabotaging me and treating me like shit, and that in turn helps me figure my own self out more too. Bravo! You've managed to be intellectual without coming across as an ass. You managed to show compassion and heart, without being too ditsy. Very professional and classy. Like Tina Fey!

I'll comment on all you talked about on my next post.

This shows that the more intellectual of my duals and the more emotionally mature are not classless, heartless, jerks....bravo.

[Aiss]

I found this on INTJ forum:

(...)

/agree^

I've noticed that once an Ni has examined enough points of view and distanced themselves, it leaves behind a residual idea that can difficult to describe in words; it's almost like a unity of subject and object. it's like a limit, in calculus, or something; all these standpoints approach a certain concept, and the more standpoints you've seen, the clearer the concept becomes! I have yet to consolidate this part of Ni with my OP. It also seems consistent with the post I referenced above.

Sometimes I think that there's a 3rd force involved though, and that is the drive; to what end am I using my Ni on social structures? For me it's sometimes to just enjoy sharing laughs amidst clever conversation, but often it's to get a girl. When I don't feel like doing either of these things, I often find myself doing activities reminiscent of Ti or Si, like reading psychology or fantasy, playing the guitar or listening to music. What information element(s) would you associate with reading fantasy, playing WoW, watching adventure movies etc.? They almost seem like Ne to me but I don't know.

I should probably start by mentioning I used to post there and discuss with jndii, among others, largely disagreeing with him. Admittedly I typed as INTP in MBTI, and tried to fit my thought processes into TiNe framework - which wasn't all that difficult, what with functions being interpreted very differently in both systems.

I disagree with a lot behind MBTI Ni and Ne. They're often compared - it happens in socionics as well, to be honest - as "multiple ideas" and "starting from one idea". Whereas in particular situations these may work, it's far from always being the case. For example it's Ni that focuses on following the consequences, which is inseparable part of playing out scenarios. Additionally, this "searching" process is also affected - IMO, it's Gulenko's concept which isn't universally accepted - by forms of thinking, which differ between IEI and ILI - the former uses vortex, the latter dialectical-algorithmic. Neither of these is unique to Ni dominants. Static vs dynamic - focus on ideas vs conceptualization of development - make for a better comparison, from my point of view.

One thing I find undeniable is intuition itself eluding description, which is vague enough for me to largely agree with anyway, though the point about connections not being random is worth noting. This being said, I can't say I agree with jndii's ideas about Ni in general, though I'm probably reading more into this particular post due to previous knowledge.

I find it far easier to relate to your description of unifying viewpoints, which has a kind of double meaning here - once as creative function's assessment of data, and then as emerging context you speak of, which is, I think, the very nature of Ni.

[shorebreaker]

I should probably start by mentioning I used to post there and discuss with jndii, among others, largely disagreeing with him. Admittedly I typed as INTP in MBTI, and tried to fit my thought processes into TiNe framework - which wasn't all that difficult, what with functions being interpreted very differently in both systems.

I disagree with a lot behind MBTI Ni and Ne. They're often compared - it happens in socionics as well, to be honest - as "multiple ideas" and "starting from one idea". Whereas in particular situations these may work, it's far from always being the case. For example it's Ni that focuses on following the consequences, which is inseparable part of playing out scenarios. Additionally, this "searching" process is also affected - IMO, it's Gulenko's concept which isn't universally accepted - by forms of thinking, which differ between IEI and ILI - the former uses vortex, the latter dialectical-algorithmic. Neither of these is unique to Ni dominants. Static vs dynamic - focus on ideas vs conceptualization of development - make for a better comparison, from my point of view.

One thing I find undeniable is intuition itself eluding description, which is vague enough for me to largely agree with anyway, though the point about connections not being random is worth noting. This being said, I can't say I agree with jndii's ideas about Ni in general, though I'm probably reading more into this particular post due to previous knowledge.

I find it far easier to relate to your description of unifying viewpoints, which has a kind of double meaning here - once as creative function's assessment of data, and then as emerging context you speak of, which is, I think, the very nature of Ni.

When I first saw a therapist he had me take the MBTI and I tested INTJ, and since then I've only been sure i was an INXX. MBTI INFJ is just my best guess at this point. The consequences part is definitely a recurring theme I've found with Ni; an awareness of the "rules of the game" yields an awareness of consequences. I've never heard of Gulenko, but I know what you mean about static and dynamic and I'm inclined to agree.

Does this sound somewhat accurate to you?

Over a period of time, Te and Fe gather information about recognition and conveyance of passions, and recognition and application of algorithmic structures, respectively. Application of specific affections or algorithms to achieve specific goals necessitate specific dispositions, and to understand the application toward that goal, Ni prompts us to consciously assume those dispositions for the duration of the process. Awareness of the goal of the process, the process itself, and our voluntary immersion in it are somehow related to the awareness of time.

[wasp]

i think i'm Ni-dom but i'm hesitant to accept the label because there's always a chance i've fallen into the infamous trap of mistaking my tert-function for my dom-function. so, i have a few questions... or hypotheses, rather?


rather than "forecasting" - could Ni be more accurately described as the "simplifying & extrapolating" function?
Ni penetrates through the surface, straight to the core, unearthing the essence of what *noun* is. Ni simplifies complexities before fleshing them out again to fill in the details using the storehouse of information they've gathered through their Se. ergo, Ni-egos are only as "insightful" as they are experienced.

here's a few mental and behavioral patterns i've read & noticed:

> from a large body of information, it extracts the "gist" (synopsis-creating) (could be Ne, too)
> from a single piece of information, it fills in the holes with odds-on details (ad-libbing) ("")
> conjures up rough templates of events & categorizations of people
> hyper-sensitive to discordance & deviations in inner & outer worlds (i.e. events, systems, people)
> prone to & fond of antithetical statements (i.e. anti-jokes)
> reading psychological & philosophical texts isn't "oh, that's new" but "oh, that's what it's called?"
> probably aware that typology exists long before discovering it
> senses subtle power shifts in interpersonal dynamics (in the case of NiFe, specifically)
> self-consciousness; "yadayadayada... but really i know i'm just x because y"
> propensity for qualitative self-analyses; truth is seen as independent from biases & facades
> dissociation/depersonalization/derealization
> a product of their environment & consumption; "lost in the sauce"
> life is characterized by grey dullness with intermittent splashes of color
> most social media parody accounts are run by Ni-doms
> better at things when they don't try

the function that "knows" before it knows - like feeling a certain way but struggling to find the right word to describe it until you stumble upon it in a book years later and it clicks. like sitting on the couch, texting, while the weather channel plays in the background - though you're not actively watching or listening - then going out for a walk later that evening and - on a whim, or so you think - bringing an umbrella with you and woah, it starts to rain. it feels like it came out of thin air but, in actuality, the weather guy mentioned a high chance of showers and your brain subconsciously picked up on it.


(i could've been more terse but i have a knack for being misunderstood if i don't clarify my points & provide examples.)