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Thread: socionics is an extension of physical kinetics it is a fact and this proves it

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    Default socionics is an extension of physical kinetics. it is a fact and this proves it.

    LIBER ENIM LIBRUM APERIT

    - ONE BOOK OPENS ANOTHER -


    Last edited by Angel von Himmel; 01-02-2009 at 04:03 AM. Reason: morons gunking up the thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    How about you tell us then, in laymen's terms, since we are such simple folk, exactly what maths you have used? It was something to do with circles and angles, wasn't it? Leave the alchemy and spiritual content out of the discussion for the time-being. It will be easier for us to understand this way.


    The math is geometry, albeit fairly simple geometry to measure various degrees of the functions [as elements] by polarities.

    Now hopefully what I am about to say here will make it simple so that you can go do your own research with little hassle.

    -The first thing to know is that in socionics the PoLR and Ego functions of one type show the polarity of complete strength and total weakness. This is actually exactly word by word the way that the zodiac matches up the elements on a 360 degree circle of polarities. This actually shows that socionics ands alchemy both have a high degree of correspondence even to the point of proving that they are the same thing, as is proven in the following.

    -The second thing to prove from this that socionics and the zodiac are the same exact thing is quite simple, because the tattwas elements from india are actually the same exact thing as the functions in socionics ... square being earth, water being the L shape in socionics or the crescent shape tattwa, intuition being a triangle, and sensing being a circle. The tattwas have been around for 1000s of years and have had various usages, one of them being associated with "mental transmutation" philosophies that were adopted into warfare and civilian life, and made their way into religions such as buddhism, taoism, wicca, and etc.

    -The second thing is that you need to understand which elements go with the signs of the zodiac and the qualities of mutable, cardinal, and fixed. You need to understand that mutable signs are androgynous and change into either male or female, fixed signs are female, and cardinal signs are male.

    -The third thing you need to understand is that alchemically and socionically speaking male represents extroversion and female represent introversion.

    -The forth thing you need to know and do is to take the tattwa elements, which look exactly like the functions in socionics and replace the signs of the zodiac with them. Match them up by their same element and by strong and weak polarities.

    - The fifth thing you need to do is to make sure that you know that the mutable signs actually represent two male and female elements of the same element. If you line them up correctly based upon weak and strong polarity, you should get a zodiac/socion system of 16 and not the 12 found in astrology.

    -The sixth thing you would need to know is that a study into the taoist based "art of war" and the "36 strategems from china" shows that whoever the people were who wrote both understood the western zodiac as it was adopted into taoism, as well as the tattwas. However, the 36 strategems are based on the zodiac 12 and not the socionic 16, which means that there are only one set of 3 strategems for both male and female elements when there should be 3 for male and 3 for female of the same element when you go with the socionics model. However, I also speculate that the 4 mutable signs as strategems actually just represent extroverted intuition, introverted thinking, introverted feeling, and extroverted sensing and neglect the other 4 functions.

    - The seventh thing you would need to do is obtain a copy of the kybalion and read up on vibration and correspondence, as well as understanding the order of metals in alchemy. The sun and the moon by means of high vibration in a hierarchy represent spiritual superiority while the lowest one lead represents the darkness of supreme isolation. Take note here that there is also an ordering of the 36 chinese strategems from superiority to confrontation, from attack to confusion, and from gain to loss. This corresponds heavily to the ordering of the metals in alchemy from superiority to inferiority and back. This is further supported by understanding what alchemical processes are involved with each sign and then comparing those to the sign associated with a certain set of 3 strategems. When done correctly the resemblance is uncannily noticeable.

    - The other thing you need to know is that it could take you upwards to a year of off and on study of the various materials I have given to completely show that you have understanding, unless you have already studied similar material for a long time; then you would understand faster.

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    This is some interesting information on the tattwas ...



    "Tattwa is a Sanskrit word meaning energy. Tattwas are five geometric symbols which represent the five universal energies. Each Tattwa symbolizes unique energies with specific properties, potentials and frequencies.In varying combinations, these five energies make up the sum totality of everything in our physical and spiritual universe.

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    Working with Tattwas can be so powerful that some may experience a temporary healing crisis. This is actually very good and means a big change has occurred. Check this link out for more information
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    Edited to put in a chart I made to help simplify this information for simple people or those who seem to lack a general ability to follow directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Augen der Taube View Post
    LIBER ENIM LIBRUM APERIT

    - ONE BOOK OPENS ANOTHER -



    OK, i'm going to focus on the first diagram, with the 36 stratagems.

    First of all, lets look at SLI, which has from the diagram:
    Openly repair, secretly march
    Hide your dagger behind a smile
    Sieze the opportunity to lead a sheep astray

    1 (31.) Openly repair, secretly march
    "Deceive the enemy with an obvious approach that will take a very long time, while surprising him by taking a shortcut and sneak up to him. As the enemy concentrates on the decoy, he will miss you sneaking up to him."

    What does this mean for an SLI? How many times do people say that an SLI is lazy, that they are going nowhere, that they need to buck up and apply themselves as they seem to just be relaxing when there is work to be done? Quite often.

    However, the SLI is a master at talented "lazyness" that is, they know just the right amount to apply themselves in order to succeed at something. So to an outsider, it often looks like they are drifting and going nowhere, in a place of work it can look like they are falling behind their competitors. It is like it will take a long time to reach their goal, if ever. People will write them off, but *poof* the SLI produces and everything comes together - they know just the right amount to apply in order to acheive the most affective amounts with their resources of time and other things.

    This means that people write off the SLI because they think he is going nowhere and isn't really going to acheive work targets etc, they focus on other things, but in the last day or few days, the SLI produces and produces very well, and everyone is taken aback that they wrote him off and focused on other things. He has openly repaired, but secretly marched.


    I think the other two are related to SLI's strategems, but others can elaborate on them if they wish.


    With EII, they have:
    Open city gates
    Injuring yourself
    Retreat and regroup

    Wanted to look at
    2 (35.) Injuring yourself
    "Pretending to be injured has two possible applications. In the first, the enemy is lulled into relaxing his guard since he no longer considers you to be an immediate threat. The second is a way of ingratiating yourself to your enemy by pretending the injury was caused by a mutual enemy."

    I think in a recent discussion with Minde, that she was presenting an "injuring yourself." That is, that I did not understand her, and that it hurt her, she was upset. She held on to hope but she wondered whether to let hope go to give her a rest. This is "the enemy is lulled into relaxing his guard since he no longer considers you to be an immediate threat."

    Now I could very well be mis-interpreting her actions, but I could put down quotes that would support my reasoning at least. In any even, this strategem is consistent with an EII, and seemed to be what Minde portrayed.

    (In regards to Minde and I, for the sake of whether it comes up on discussion, I have pm'd her and hopefully sorted it out between her.)

    - - - -- - -

    I can see the strategems applying to the other types, I have thought of several examples, but at the moment I don't necessarily feel the need to write them down on the thread.

    -- - - - - - -

    With the strategems McNew, what made you decide the ones you did for the types?

    I notice that Alpha and Gamma activators have the same strategems, and Beta and Delta activators do not, is there a reason for this?

    What is your take on the 6 chapters of the strategems relating to the types, or the quadras?

    (I am still looking into this somewhat, so I apologise if any of my questions have been answered by you/or the answers appear obvious.)

    I am also looking into the elements assigned to the strategems, I think I can see the correlations, at least some of them at the moment. Maybe you could elaborate on that a little more?

    - -- -- - -

    My current thoughts on this are that the strategems are those most likely to be used by the types attached to them. It does not necessarily have to be a concious strategy, and when the person uses them their intention is not necessarily to deceive, it is just what comes naturally to them for their type in most instances.

    This is what i've managed to derive so far. Well, I have some other thoughts but thought I would write this for now.

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    I had words here once, but I didn't feed them Khola's Avatar
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    You're nuttier than squirrel turds man.
    Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .



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    I notice that Alpha and Gamma activators have the same strategems, and Beta and Delta activators do not, is there a reason for this?
    What do you mean by this? Care to elaborate?

    What is your take on the 6 chapters of the strategems relating to the types, or the quadras?
    Basically my take is that the functions themselves show degrees and polarities of other neighboring functions, and that a persons actions in using a strategem is not necessarily to deceive in the sense that people understand deception to be. It is more like the strategem is how a set of functions appear, as certain speech patterns and bodily behaviors of a person act in relation to what he or she is thinking, thus invokeing movement towards the creation of some event that either "clears a way" or "blocks" a persons willpower and intent or "clears the way" or "blocks" someone elses willpower and intent. The strategems themselves basically are descriptions of the exact archetypal actions that one type has in the creation of events. The key word here is "archetypal" ... what that means is that the strategems are simply perfect types of all actions and bear the perfect resemblance to the different and varying actions of types. If that makes any sense.

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    These two questions go together:
    --------------------------------------------------

    I am also looking into the elements assigned to the strategems, I think I can see the correlations, at least some of them at the moment. Maybe you could elaborate on that a little more?

    With the strategems McNew, what made you decide the ones you did for the types?
    --------------------------------------------------



    I put these questions together, because the answers are the same.As for the answer as to how I determined which elements belonged to each
    strategem, the answer my friend is found in studying polarities and also the metals of the zodiac.

    If you take a 360 degree circle, each degree being 10 degrees and representing a strategem giving a total of 360 degrees, the furthest that a polarity can go before coming closer is 180 degrees. For example, the strategems "Steal the firewood from under the pot" and "borrow a corpse to raise a spirit" would be exactly 180 degrees apart and represent the end spectrum of the same polarity.

    The way that I associated the elements with each strategem is at first sight simple, and also has to do with polarities and 180 degree inferences. However, my methods in this instance were done more by inference. For example, the zodiac has 12 signs and the 36 strategems fit into a 360 degree circle. With only the assumption that the zodiac and the 36 strategems were the same thing, that would mean that each sign of the zodiac was 30 degrees of the same 360 degree circle. Each sign of the zodiac would equal 3 strategems in this regards. That means that 3 strategems all belonged to atleast one sign of the zodiac.

    The above is the first step, however, now it gets much much more complicated; although there were hints along the way to discovery.

    The way I first began to derive which strategems belonged where was by using the polarities that belonged to the 36 strategems. For example, Superiority and Confrontation is a Polarity. This is followed by a "Gain and Loss" polarity and also an "Attack and Confusion" polarity. Remember that a full polarity is 180 degrees apart on a 360 degree circle. For example, this means that polaritywise there is a "superiority" endpole and a "confrontation" endpole on the same polarity and are simply end degrees of the same pole. That means that the 6 strategems that belonged with superiority can only be placed exactly and around 180 degrees from the neighboring 6 confrontation The next phase that I use to determine which strategem belonged to each element was by comparing the metals in alchemy along with the alchemical processes to the strategems. Note that this method of comparison is tedious and it is nearly impossible not to work with information that is completely archaic sounding. That was the main challenge with this one.

    The alchemical processes as they go with the signs and such are as follows:

    01.[F]Aries - Calcination - to make a solid a liquid
    02.[E]Taurus - Congelelation - to make a liquid a solid
    03.[A]Gemini - Fixation - to trap or channel a gas
    04.[W]Cancer - Dissolution - to dissolve in a liquid
    05.[F]Leo - Digestion - to slowly cook and absorb
    06.[E]Virgo - Distillation - to seperate condensed vapors
    07.[A]Libra - Sublimination - to vaporize solids
    08.[W]Scorpio - Filtration - to seperate components
    09.[F]Sagittarius - Incineration - to burn to ashes
    10.[E]Capricorn - Fermentation - to use a yeast as a seed
    11.[A]Aquarius - Multiplication - to grow through division
    12.[W]Pisces - Projection - to make the less than greater
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...ical_processes

    01. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcination
    02. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congelation
    03.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(alchemy)
    04. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solvation
    05. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digestion
    06. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distillation
    07. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sublimation_(chemistry)
    08. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filtration
    09. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incinerator
    10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermentation_(food)
    11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiplication_(alchemy)
    12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_(alchemy)

    and the following metals:

    Leo - Gold
    Cancer - Silver
    Virgo and Gemini - Mercury
    Libra and Taurus - Copper
    Aries and Scorpio - Iron
    Sagittarius and Pisces - Tin
    Capricorn and Aquarius - Lead
    *Hint - how do you turn your state of inner darkness into light? How do you transform lead into gold? The answer is vibration!

    Alright, now this is the part where we take some of the things we already know and apply them to vibration and correspondence. For example, we already know that "Superiority" and "Confrontation is a polarity. However, think of how this might actually correspond to the metals in alchemy. Superiority could very well represent gold and silver, because those are the purest of all the metals, and lead can very well represent confrontation, because its thickness even in thin pieces is so dense that not even the minutest amount of the suns rays can penetrate it. The o0thers ones I basically built around making this determination, my choices for where they fit being determined by how the various strategems matched the alchemical processes.

    I am going to use the descriptions as this link, which are changed a little.
    http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Thirty-Six_Strategies

    I'll give an example now:

    For Pisces, Water, the alchemical process of projection

    Remember Projection is about making the "less than" into something "greater than," so it is a type of addition to something by giving an increase. Let us look at the strategems that I have associated with Pisces and see if there is some sort of correlation there ...

    Strategy 32 - Empty fort. (Mental trap, empty a fort to make enemy think it is filled with traps.)

    * When the enemy is superior in numbers and your situation is such that you expect to be overrun at any moment, then drop all pretence of military
    preparedness and act casually. Unless the enemy has an accurate description of your situation this unusual behavior will arouse suspicions. With luck he will be dissuaded from attacking.
    Strategy 34 - Inflict injury on one's self to win the enemy's trust. (Fall into a trap; become baited.)

    * Pretending to be injured has two possible applications. In the first, the
    enemy is lulled into relaxing his guard since he no longer considers you to be an immediate threat. The second is a way of ingratiating yourself to your enemy by pretending the injury was caused by a mutual enemy.
    The 36th strategy - Run away to fight another day.

    * If it becomes obvious that your current course of action will lead to
    defeat then retreat and regroup. When your side is losing there are only three choices remaining: surrender, compromise, or escape. Surrender is complete defeat, compromise is half defeat, but escape is not defeat. As long as you are not defeated, you still have a chance.
    Now, the first one very much applies to Introverted feeling. For example, INFjs are often very intense and open people and they do not mind just spilling there feelings out there with deep intensity. INFjs are so open, that this often times scares people. This is in fact what this strategem is about. The second one is to appear to be much less than, when you are in fact greater than. By pretending that you are less than your current state, it puts people off guard. It is like a little girl saying ... Ouch, I got hurt! Help! and her big brother comes out to the rescue, when she normally does not get along with her brother. The last strategem is one of diplomacy, where you decide where you stand and if you want to fight or end a confrontation. This could be implemented by scattering things to slip everything by someone or something, only to reassemble later or by surrendering or compromising. Basically all of these are Fi sounding behavior, and detail the alchemical process of projection. The first one obviously more so than the others.

    As for deciding which types belong to which zodiac sign I used the tattwas as a guide, which corresponded very beautifully as a means to mediate between both. I already have outlined exactly how to change between between the zodiac signs and socionic functions by using the tattwas in one of the posts above in this thread.

    Any more questions or is that clear enough now ... ?

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    I think in a recent discussion with Minde, that she was presenting an "injuring yourself." That is, that I did not understand her, and that it hurt her, she was upset. She held on to hope but she wondered whether to let hope go to give her a rest. This is "the enemy is lulled into relaxing his guard since he no longer considers you to be an immediate threat."

    Now I could very well be mis-interpreting her actions, but I could put down quotes that would support my reasoning at least. In any even, this strategem is consistent with an EII, and seemed to be what Minde portrayed.

    (In regards to Minde and I, for the sake of whether it comes up on discussion, I have pm'd her and hopefully sorted it out between her.)
    Since she was not getting along with you she was trying to draw you closer to her by acting hurt, which was exactly an attempt by her to draw you closer to her. I think you hit the nail on the head there.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    I did not pretend anything, and I find the suggestion of such insulting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I did not pretend anything, and I find the suggestion of such insulting.
    I think I am going to emphasize that the strategems are "archetypes" for now on so people will stop the false assumption that it has to do with deception or pretending as such as was the application with warfare.

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