Alice In Wonderland

[Nexus]

Alice - INFp
Door Knob - ENFj
White Rabbit - INTp
Dodo - ESFj
Tweedle Dee & Dum - ESTj
Walrus - ISFj
Carpenter - ISTj
Lizard - ISFp
Flowers - ESFp
Caterpillar - INTj
Chesire Cat - INFj
Mad Hatter - ENTj
March Hare - ENFp
Garden Painters - ISTp
King of Hearts - ENTp
Queen of Hearts - ESTp

[Gilly]

My circle of druggy friends used to call me The Mad Hatter. He is probably EIE.

[DirectorAbbie]

Yup, the caterpillar reminds me of my brother. It just talks more. I've never liked tweedledum.

[Smilingeyes]

Why do you consider Alice INFp? I've always thought of her as INFj. To me, she seems to display a sense of what's proper, quite unlike any INFp I've ever known. Also she seems to more of a protagonist, than the "victim" types tend to be. Anyway. I agree about the doorknob being ENFjish, as much as one can say anything about such a short appearance.

For the dodo, as he appears here, ESFj seems possible.

[Nexus]

My circle of druggy friends used to call me The Mad Hatter. He is probably EIE.

That is possible. That he has an extroverted rational base function is indubitable, and creative seems likely too.

[DirectorAbbie]

Why do you consider Alice INFp? I've always thought of her as INFj. To me, she seems to display a sense of what's proper, quite unlike any INFp I've ever known. Also she seems to more of a protagonist, than the "victim" types tend to be. Anyway. I agree about the doorknob being ENFjish, as much as one can say anything about such a short appearance.

For the dodo, as he appears here, ESFj seems possible.

Yeah, her head's in the clouds, but she's not a victim. She values . I'm not sure whether she values . The whole story is ; she doesn't really initiate it. Can't tell between Delta & Gamma.

[UDP]

She values .

Does she? I never saw the whole thing, but....

"nonsense - if I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't"

: /

[Nexus]

Why do you consider Alice INFp? I've always thought of her as INFj. To me, she seems to display a sense of what's proper, quite unlike any INFp I've ever known. Also she seems to more of a protagonist, than the "victim" types tend to be. Anyway. I agree about the doorknob being ENFjish, as much as one can say anything about such a short appearance.

For the dodo, as he appears here, ESFj seems possible.

Alice does not seem to spend much time judging, only perceiving...every judgment she makes is either a conditioned reflex which occurs most frequently when she is engaged in conversation, or in the short intervals between engagements and these monologues suggest indecision and continuous perception rather than judging. Other than curiosity, she has no defined objective and near the end she falls to pieces when she has grown tired of her perceptual wonders (one of her few conscious, rational decisions). Additionally, she does not show much in the way of extroverted intuition, and her final introverted feeling is usually the result of such misunderstandings. Rather, she seems to ponder in her own dreams on the inevitable aspects of her own situation, rather than explore the possibilities (except at the end when she uses the mushroom to overwhelm the queen, which spontaneously demonstrates a superior insight). She is very introverted and intuitive, though she is so dreamy that her extroverted feelings often almost occur as an afterthought. The Chesire Cat, with his helpful but creatively paradoxical babblings and profound compassion seems far more EII to me. However, I could be wrong - originally I thought that the Chesire Cat could be LSE and Alice ILE, which is the beneficiary of LSE (and Alice certainly benefited more from the cat, the representation of her own pet Dinah, than any other character) - the perceptions of herself within the dream might certainly demonstrate unconscious creative, where her seems replaced with imaginary friends...

[Smilingeyes]

I come off as extremely proper to people I'm not familiar with, especially when I'm in a new place or when when I'm not comfortable in my environment.

Yeah, see I don't see myself thinking of you as acting proper. Cautious, sure, but proper? Not from an ESTj point of view.

...

On the whole Alice thing...

The whole thing is very much nonsense, meant for kids by a man with an academic education. A toy, a trifle. I think it's quite certain that Lewis Carroll himself was Ej-Si and Alice was his muse, one of the three kids he told stories to. And those kids were very insisting, and Lewis tended to weave labyrinths of silly things around them. That's why I think the original Alice, as well as the Alice from the books would have been INFj-Ne. Now I have to wonder for a moment, whether the character is so much twisted around for the film that she could be INFp here. But I'm feeling a bit tired. And tomorrow I need to travel. I need to make preparations. Happy new year everyone, btw.

[Gilly]

Don't bother, he's not going to change his mind.

[Nexus]

To an ESTj an INFp is the exact opposite of proper

the thing with Alice is that she has more dreams than ideas, and she victimizes herself by opening herself up to characters that then terrorize her. however she seems to value too - when she talks about how everything would be what it isn't, and isn't what it is, she means factual things that no longer have their old characteristics but rather others that are mutually exclusive with the old set. however her cat, an obvious -valuing EIE, is immediately confused by the logical contradiction because she focuses on generalized abstract systems and not specific concrete concepts.

anyways happy new year Smilingeyes

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

however she seems to value too - when she talks about how everything would be what it isn't, and isn't what it is, she means factual things that no longer have their old characteristics but rather others that are mutually exclusive with the old set. however her cat, an obvious -valuing EIE, is immediately confused by the logical contradiction because she focuses on generalized abstract systems and not specific concrete concepts.

Bullshit. You all are reading way too much into a cartoon. Although Alice the movie has some psychological concepts, your post does not make since she didn't specifically define 'factual things.' Everything means just that, everything.

[theum nathair]

Yeah, her head's in the clouds, but she's not a victim. She values . I'm not sure whether she values . The whole story is ; she doesn't really initiate it. Can't tell between Delta & Gamma.

Come back, so we can discuss this

I actually thought her arguably LSE. She tires of the little logical lessons, though she can play along just as easily (ignoring function would make sense). Also, as others have observed...

every judgment she makes is either a conditioned reflex which occurs most frequently when she is engaged in conversation,

role

or in the short intervals between engagements and these monologues suggest indecision and continuous perception rather than judging.

vulnerable and role functions struggling to catch up

this user appears to be under the strange impression, doubtless influenced by myers-briggs and related theories, that irrational or 'perceiving' types don't normally make decisions

Other than curiosity, she has no defined objective and near the end she falls to pieces when she has grown tired of her perceptual wonders (one of her few conscious, rational decisions).

Ni polr -- she's chucked into a world where nothing makes sense and it doesn't seem to occur to her that she's got to do something other than react as usual in order to get ahead of things (not sure why this individual considers 'falling to pieces' a decision)

for Alice, 'reacting as usual' entails treating people politely and expecting them to act reasonably when, as the cheshire cat has pointed out, the lot are clearly mad

the forethought she shows is of a practical and not a global nature -- likely Te (not immediately, but after railing against the arbitrary rule set in the first book, she starts collecting the edible items which make her grow and shrink, and without having to deliberate much, grows or shrinks herself as would befit each situation, with Si consideration plainly evident -- e.g. (paraphrased) 'I think I'll grow because entering this situation would be dangerous at my current height of 3 inches' or 'if I should shrink I'd be less likely to frighten the denizens of that place'

Additionally, she does not show much in the way of extroverted intuition,

because she's a sensoric type; I thought she was Se-lead at first but the Ep vibe possibly comes from her being a child (or else the real Alice, who inspired the character, was an Se lead, and Carroll tried to describe her through weak+conscious functions Si and Te

I haven't got a really strong opinion on L Carroll's type, but I think he looks IEI.

[theum nathair]

Carroll looks IXFx, and the pedantry in his writing suggests Ti-valuing. IEI seems plausible; I don't much care that he was a maths don. It seems certain types would typically be drawn to certain professions, but there would also be atypical cases.

Indeed the books show rather heavy-handed Ne for an Ni base. They were inspired by, and partly written for, children of one of Carroll's friends with whom he had been favourably impressed on some sunny afternoon outing. The Ne generation of novel images (a world under ground, the hookah-smoking caterpillar, daft birds, using flamingoes for croquet mallets, bickering flowers) is nested in other events, for instance at the end of the first book, the adult sister begins to dream, of Wonderland, and of the mundane noises transformed into strange images in the child's brain, and Alice's sister is described as being between the two, immersed in one normally, yet still able to return to another when she shuts her eyes

NB, Alice evinces some distress in the first book at Wonderland's strangeness, and at the beginning of the second, she longs to return to a place that caused her nothing but frustration and trouble. Perhaps this would not be typical of LSE (...or perhaps it would?), but it's the sort of sentiment discussed in β mostly

Carroll was born in Cheshire by the way. An emblem that fades and reappears... of course he could be Ti base, if you insist, and yet...

[Not A Communist Shill]

Lewis Carroll was most likely IEI I think.

He had started writing poetry and short stories from a young age. Seemed to have a Peter Pan fascination for children, if not suspect (which it probably was).

He was a deacon in the Church of England, but that was a common role for male relatives in his family. Isaac Newton was more of a theologian for example (I type him ILI).

Also mathematically gifted and talented at creating logical puzzles, paradoxes and so on. Poe was somewhat similar in that regard (who I type IEI).

I could believe ILI or LII, but the Peter Pan aspect makes me think otherwise. Alan Turing had a fascination with fairy tales and was more comfortable talking with children too (I probably type him IEI at the moment, although I think I had ILE>IEI before). Such behaviour is abnormal though, so if there was any logic to Socionics, then socially abnormal types like ILI or LII should be more likely.

[Sol]

Lewis Carroll by photos reminds beta NF

and by appearance reminds Alive / @Asleep. after ~10 years there

[InterPrizeWes]

Lewis Carrol is an Intp, very interested in forms of concept art and bending realities with wit and humor.