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Thread: Fi and Fe PoLRs

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    Sauron, The Great Enemy ArchonAlarion's Avatar
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    Default Fi and Fe PoLRs

    Because theres a lot of controversy over the descriptions I've read about socionics, Im asking you guys....

    How does Fe polr manifest itself?

    How does Fi polr manifest itself?
    OPERATION POOPLAIR

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    My opinion:

    E*Tps like to engage a group of people into a laughter monologue because they (I) dislike being too close to people. This avoids intimate conversations, which are potentially unpleasant, because we believe people judges us unfairly whereas we don't judge people. as polr makes us believe that people wants to betray us.

    as polr makes I*Tps force themselves to be serious and keep quiet. When a group of people laughs and jokes, they isolate from this and show their aloofness. At the same time, if someone talks about a new project, I*Tps reject them because they are very down-to-earth.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    If you read the ISFp-ENTp duality text in Socioniko.net, it says something like this: "the Searcher is unceremonious, he's out of place. He cannot regulate the distance in communication. He's too credulous about people, too kind to those who envy him"
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    My opinion:

    E*Tps like to engage a group of people into a laughter monologue because they (I) dislike being too close to people. This avoids intimate conversations, which are potentially unpleasant, because we believe people judges us unfairly whereas we don't judge people. as polr makes us believe that people wants to betray us.
    really? awww, that makes me kinda sad. like I wanna show them that it's okay, that they won't be judged and that it's okay to be close to someone.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Unfortunately, narrow minded people quickly judges others. And they are usually wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    really? awww, that makes me kinda sad. like I wanna show them that it's okay, that they won't be judged and that it's okay to be close to someone.
    That's what they pay you for!
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    as polr makes I*Tps force themselves to be serious and keep quiet. When a group of people laughs and jokes, they isolate from this and show their aloofness. At the same time, if someone talks about a new project, I*Tps reject them because they are very down-to-earth.
    Boy, that doesn't sound like me at all. If I'm with my friends, I love getting them to laugh, and appreciate when they make jokes, including crude humor ... If I don't know the people well, I get downright bored if there's not some lightheartedness and laughter to draw me out of my natural aloofness. And if someone talks about a project, I often eagerly relate by going into Te-spew, offering up semi-related tidbits of data I've absorbed from my lifetime of intellectual dilettante-ism.

    There was a thread not too long ago about Fe polr, where tereg posted examples of crowds of people engaging in communal displays, such as clapping or dancing together, and just watching the youtubes made me squirm. That may be along the lines of what you were getting at with the first sentence quoted above?
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    Boy, that doesn't sound like me at all. If I'm with my friends, I love getting them to laugh, and appreciate when they make jokes, including crude humor ... If I don't know the people well, I get downright bored if there's not some lightheartedness and laughter to draw me out of my natural aloofness. And if someone talks about a project, I often eagerly relate by going into Te-spew, offering up semi-related tidbits of data I've absorbed from my lifetime of intellectual dilettante-ism.

    There was a thread not too long ago about Fe polr, where tereg posted examples of crowds of people engaging in communal displays, such as clapping or dancing together, and just watching the youtubes made me squirm. That may be along the lines of what you were getting at with the first sentence quoted above?

    What is your type?
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    What is your type?
    ISTp. Some say Si subtype. Some say 5 enneagram.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    Well, I've an ISTp subtype who loves to joke when surrounded by old friends, from time to time. On the other hand, INTps never behave that way.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Polr Bears!
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    Well, I've an ISTp subtype who loves to joke when surrounded by old friends, from time to time. On the other hand, INTps never behave that way.
    INTps don't like to joke with friends? Um... what?
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    My sister is dating an ILI-Asberger sub. Dude is completely oblivious to any external emotional stuff, like a robot. My mother fears he was sent from the future to suck the joy out of our family events until we off ourselves, thus assuring the victory of the inevitable robotic uprising.

    I've also decided my mom is an ESFj-Si, and that being on the observing side of a conflicting relationship is, um, interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My sister is dating an ILI-Asberger sub. Dude is completely oblivious to any external emotional stuff, like a robot. My mother fears he was sent from the future to suck the joy out of our family events until we off ourselves, thus assuring the victory of the inevitable robotic uprising.

    I've also decided my mom is an ESFj-Si, and that being on the observing side of a conflicting relationship is, um, interesting.
    lol
    ILE "Searcher"
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    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    INTps don't like to joke with friends? Um... what?
    Perhaps I don't have any real friend among INTps
    ILE "Searcher"
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    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
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    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My sister is dating an ILI-Asberger sub. Dude is completely oblivious to any external emotional stuff, like a robot. My mother fears he was sent from the future to suck the joy out of our family events until we off ourselves, thus assuring the victory of the inevitable robotic uprising.

    I've also decided my mom is an ESFj-Si, and that being on the observing side of a conflicting relationship is, um, interesting.
    oh wow, yeah that must be interesting. what type is your sister? I know an ILI who seems a bit like that. He talks in a completely monotone voice. I used to think there was something wrong with him until I got to know him better. Getting married and having kids really helped him become more normal I think (married his dual). He's very very smart and self-effacing.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My sister is dating an ILI-Asberger sub. Dude is completely oblivious to any external emotional stuff, like a robot. My mother fears he was sent from the future to suck the joy out of our family events until we off ourselves, thus assuring the victory of the inevitable robotic uprising.
    hahaha..i've experienced this with a few ILI's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    My sister is dating an ILI-Asberger sub. Dude is completely oblivious to any external emotional stuff, like a robot. My mother fears he was sent from the future to suck the joy out of our family events until we off ourselves, thus assuring the victory of the inevitable robotic uprising.
    LOL
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    oh wow, yeah that must be interesting. what type is your sister? I know an ILI who seems a bit like that. He talks in a completely monotone voice. I used to think there was something wrong with him until I got to know him better. Getting married and having kids really helped him become more normal I think (married his dual). He's very very smart and self-effacing.
    I think my sister is ESI-Fi. His voice is a flat monotone too, though I wouldn't say he's all that bright himself, and definitely not self-effacing. He has this way of 'correcting' everyone without any clue (I don't think he's meaning to be an ass about it) of how it comes across. Such as telling my brother the company he works for is inferior in every way to a competitor, mentioning to my mother after the fact that he'd gone through and ripped a few of her dvds to his computer, chitchatting with an aunt of mine (an ESE-Fe, btw) about how great absinthe was and how he was importing some from Mexico while my sister uncomfortably fidgeted next to him (He hadn't said anything the whole two hours we'd been there and that's what he finally came up with). It's seriously amazing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    I think my sister is ESI-Fi. His voice is a flat monotone too, though I wouldn't say he's all that bright himself, and definitely not self-effacing. He has this way of 'correcting' everyone without any clue (I don't think he's meaning to be an ass about it) of how it comes across. Such as telling my brother the company he works for is inferior in every way to a competitor, mentioning to my mother after the fact that he'd gone through and ripped a few of her dvds to his computer, chitchatting with an aunt of mine (an ESE-Fe, btw) about how great absinthe was and how he was importing some from Mexico while my sister uncomfortably fidgeted next to him (He hadn't said anything the whole two hours we'd been there and that's what he finally came up with). It's seriously amazing.
    lol

    The obliviousness is what makes them great, though. I love it.

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    My dad is ILI, and he jokes a lot. It's a dry, ironic sort of humor. He loves anything with British comedy. Usually the butt of his jokes is someone he feels is being overly dramatic about a minor upset. The dramatism doesn't really affect him - it just annoys or amuses him. After a point, it really starts irritating him.
    IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    My dad is ILI, and he jokes a lot. It's a dry, ironic sort of humor. He loves anything with British comedy. Usually the butt of his jokes is someone he feels is being overly dramatic about a minor upset. The dramatism doesn't really affect him - it just annoys or amuses him. After a point, it really starts irritating him.
    too much drama over a minor upset=ESE
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    the Fe polr person shares some surface similarities with the Fi polr person because they are both weak in both F functions. They will both seem to take care of this area in different ways but will seem somewhat similar since they have to deal with the intersection of relations with other people if they are out and about and it will be evident in these dealings and interactions with others.

    recently I came across an interview which gave me some new exposure to what I consider an Fe polr. As I've said before, I tend to see polr as the absence of awareness or activity in matters related to it, rather than some specific, positive (active) behaviors. However, since both the polr and the HA are weak, the areas of interest and weakness will be similar in the Fx or Tx polr. Not sure I've seen the same thing with Px (perceiving functions) polr.

    Didn't mean for this to be a long post, but just wanted to drop some quotes from the interview in as it was useful to me. But the best one is #7. THC is the interviewer, RC is the interviewee with an Fe polr.



    1) I find that both Fx polrs will open up with people not realizing the bonds they are creating. here, an example of opening up to relative strangers, then seeing the bonds as an afterthought. Notice this is different than an Fx creative type entrancing people and creating bonds that they don't want.

    THC: So, would you go to her with lyrics you’d been working on, and she’d critique?

    RC: No, it wasn’t like that. It was more like, I would discuss with her the emotional and romantic situations in my life, and we’d also talk about ways to express that in art, and what ways other artists have expressed that. [pause] I can’t be too specific, because it involves other people’s private lives. But one example is, in “Pinkerton”, in “El Scorcho,” two lines in the song are actually taken from someone else’s essay in my Expos class. Because at one point, we had to do a little workshop thing, and we each got assigned to review someone else’s essay. So, I reviewed this one person’s essay, and I liked some of the lines in it, so I took them and used them in the song.

    2) General unawareness with how one affects others

    THC: So, do you discuss your life's work with people here? Do people know that you're “Rivers?” Or are you just Rivers?

    RC: Well, I don't know what people know, unless they tell me.


    3) More difficulty in generating self awareness, needing relationships to be more separate as a conscious, sometimes laborious decision. This can be just weak F as well.

    THC: But one of the accusations that's been made is that, since The Green Album, your song topics have become less and less vividly about personal experiences. Do you agree with that assessment, or is that just in the ear of the beholder?

    RC: No, I would agree with that, for the most part. The Green Album and Maladroit were, very intentionally, not about me. Not about what was going on in my life, at least in a conscious way.


    4) In personal relationships, no effect from Fe aspects (playing the song)


    THC: Well, not so much interpersonally, but for you specifically—when you play “El Scorcho,” does it hurt to remember those periods?

    RC: No.

    Fe aspects are easier to abandon once the F need is fufiilled (fi in this case) (this could be weak F also, as it's a matter of degree).

    THC: How often do you respond to emails and Facebook messages?

    RC: Less and less. In 2004, I responded to everyone. No matter who it was, or how many emails I would get, I would respond to everybody.



    THC: That must have been enormously time-consuming.

    RC: Well, you know, it probably couldn’t have taken more than a half-hour every day. Just, do it all at once. But, this semester, I’ve kinda stopped doing that.



    THC: Just because you’re not looking for somebody anymore?

    RC: I think so. I just…enh. Which is pretty selfish, I guess.

    5) In relationships, not being aware of an Fe aspect (the inspiration comes from personal feelings. The expression is not focused on Fe.. this point also for weaker and not necessarily polr F).

    RC: Yeah, ah—that was a different girl. I think that was the one I noticed first, when I got here in ‘95. We weren't exactly “intertwined”—it's just, I saw her in class and I had a crush on her. And I think we were hardly even talking. And actually, that's the best phase of a relationship to write songs—before you even really know anything about the person! Actually, I don't know that. Because now that I'm in a serious relationship, I guess I'll find some things to write about.

    THC: Have you been writing about your fiancee?

    RC: Lately? No.


    6) General inappropriate slips sometimes Born out of obliviousness. This reminds me of Woody Allen being sort of dismissive when discussing his marrying his girlfriend's adoptive daughter, something which has many moral or social implications for many. Background: RC has often referenced half-Japanese women as particularly fascinating/attractive to him.

    THC: Here it is: “Perhaps someday I’ll have a girl. A half-Japanese girl.”

    RC: No, yeah I was talking about my daughter.

    THC: But it’s interesting that you chose to phrase it that way…

    7) Here is a great quote of what I see as an Fe polr's non-attention to Fe concerns. This does not mean that they will not care about the actual concern. There is non-attention given to it. Fe polr does not think about such things; when someone brings it up, it's as if someone's struck a tuning fork or they've shone a light in his eyes.

    THC: Do you ever worry that people think of you as a fetishist?

    RC: Um…[pause]…I guess I don’t know what people think about me, and I guess I don’t worry about it that much. If somebody said something, that’d be different. It never occurs me to dwell on what other people might be thinking.

    THC: But you’ve said in the past that it’s still difficult for you to deal with written criticism. So, it’s only hard for you to deal with it when people actually voice criticism?

    RC: I guess it would bother me if I knew what people were thinking, but yeah, I guess that’s accurate.

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    This is how I see them manifested often:

    Fi PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in small groups and especially one-to-one. Not aware of what another person personally finds offensive. Unintentionally (most of the time) hurting/offending another person by saying/doing offensive things. Long-term issue with maintaining stable relations with others due to this. When relations end, to the Fi PoLR type, it is usually sudden, unexpected and painful.

    Fe PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in groups, particularly large groups. Not aware of social etiquette associated with different groups. Thus a tendency to unintentionally do or say something that alienates them from the group (i.e. behavior that others find offensive). Hesitation towards doing as others do. Uncomfortable, for example, cheering like everyone else at a sports event or concert.
    INFp-Ni

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    too much drama over a minor upset=ESE
    Oh yes. Exhausting.
    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    This is how I see them manifested often:

    Fi PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in small groups and especially one-to-one. Not aware of what another person personally finds offensive. Unintentionally (most of the time) hurting/offending another person by saying/doing offensive things. Long-term issue with maintaining stable relations with others due to this. When relations end, to the Fi PoLR type, it is usually sudden, unexpected and painful.

    Fe PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in groups, particularly large groups. Not aware of social etiquette associated with different groups. Thus a tendency to unintentionally do or say something that alienates them from the group (i.e. behavior that others find offensive). Hesitation towards doing as others do. Uncomfortable, for example, cheering like everyone else at a sports event or concert.
    I think this is good.

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    Ironically, E*Tps unintentionally offend people and ISFjs are constantly and consciously doing it. Furthermore, weak minded people overreact to everything.
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    This is how I see them manifested often:

    Fi PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in small groups and especially one-to-one. Not aware of what another person personally finds offensive. Unintentionally (most of the time) hurting/offending another person by saying/doing offensive things. Long-term issue with maintaining stable relations with others due to this. When relations end, to the Fi PoLR type, it is usually sudden, unexpected and painful.

    Fe PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in groups, particularly large groups. Not aware of social etiquette associated with different groups. Thus a tendency to unintentionally do or say something that alienates them from the group (i.e. behavior that others find offensive). Hesitation towards doing as others do. Uncomfortable, for example, cheering like everyone else at a sports event or concert.
    i'm Fi polr, by your definition.
    6w5 sx
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    the Fe polr person shares some surface similarities with the Fi polr person because they are both weak in both F functions. They will both seem to take care of this area in different ways but will seem somewhat similar since they have to deal with the intersection of relations with other people if they are out and about and it will be evident in these dealings and interactions with others.

    recently I came across an interview which gave me some new exposure to what I consider an Fe polr. As I've said before, I tend to see polr as the absence of awareness or activity in matters related to it, rather than some specific, positive (active) behaviors. However, since both the polr and the HA are weak, the areas of interest and weakness will be similar in the Fx or Tx polr. Not sure I've seen the same thing with Px (perceiving functions) polr.

    Didn't mean for this to be a long post, but just wanted to drop some quotes from the interview in as it was useful to me. But the best one is #7. THC is the interviewer, RC is the interviewee with an Fe polr.



    1) I find that both Fx polrs will open up with people not realizing the bonds they are creating. here, an example of opening up to relative strangers, then seeing the bonds as an afterthought. Notice this is different than an Fx creative type entrancing people and creating bonds that they don't want.

    THC: So, would you go to her with lyrics you’d been working on, and she’d critique?

    RC: No, it wasn’t like that. It was more like, I would discuss with her the emotional and romantic situations in my life, and we’d also talk about ways to express that in art, and what ways other artists have expressed that. [pause] I can’t be too specific, because it involves other people’s private lives. But one example is, in “Pinkerton”, in “El Scorcho,” two lines in the song are actually taken from someone else’s essay in my Expos class. Because at one point, we had to do a little workshop thing, and we each got assigned to review someone else’s essay. So, I reviewed this one person’s essay, and I liked some of the lines in it, so I took them and used them in the song.

    2) General unawareness with how one affects others

    THC: So, do you discuss your life's work with people here? Do people know that you're “Rivers?” Or are you just Rivers?

    RC: Well, I don't know what people know, unless they tell me.


    3) More difficulty in generating self awareness, needing relationships to be more separate as a conscious, sometimes laborious decision. This can be just weak F as well.

    THC: But one of the accusations that's been made is that, since The Green Album, your song topics have become less and less vividly about personal experiences. Do you agree with that assessment, or is that just in the ear of the beholder?

    RC: No, I would agree with that, for the most part. The Green Album and Maladroit were, very intentionally, not about me. Not about what was going on in my life, at least in a conscious way.


    4) In personal relationships, no effect from Fe aspects (playing the song)


    THC: Well, not so much interpersonally, but for you specifically—when you play “El Scorcho,” does it hurt to remember those periods?

    RC: No.

    Fe aspects are easier to abandon once the F need is fufiilled (fi in this case) (this could be weak F also, as it's a matter of degree).

    THC: How often do you respond to emails and Facebook messages?

    RC: Less and less. In 2004, I responded to everyone. No matter who it was, or how many emails I would get, I would respond to everybody.



    THC: That must have been enormously time-consuming.

    RC: Well, you know, it probably couldn’t have taken more than a half-hour every day. Just, do it all at once. But, this semester, I’ve kinda stopped doing that.



    THC: Just because you’re not looking for somebody anymore?

    RC: I think so. I just…enh. Which is pretty selfish, I guess.

    5) In relationships, not being aware of an Fe aspect (the inspiration comes from personal feelings. The expression is not focused on Fe.. this point also for weaker and not necessarily polr F).

    RC: Yeah, ah—that was a different girl. I think that was the one I noticed first, when I got here in ‘95. We weren't exactly “intertwined”—it's just, I saw her in class and I had a crush on her. And I think we were hardly even talking. And actually, that's the best phase of a relationship to write songs—before you even really know anything about the person! Actually, I don't know that. Because now that I'm in a serious relationship, I guess I'll find some things to write about.

    THC: Have you been writing about your fiancee?

    RC: Lately? No.


    6) General inappropriate slips sometimes Born out of obliviousness. This reminds me of Woody Allen being sort of dismissive when discussing his marrying his girlfriend's adoptive daughter, something which has many moral or social implications for many. Background: RC has often referenced half-Japanese women as particularly fascinating/attractive to him.

    THC: Here it is: “Perhaps someday I’ll have a girl. A half-Japanese girl.”

    RC: No, yeah I was talking about my daughter.

    THC: But it’s interesting that you chose to phrase it that way…

    7) Here is a great quote of what I see as an Fe polr's non-attention to Fe concerns. This does not mean that they will not care about the actual concern. There is non-attention given to it. Fe polr does not think about such things; when someone brings it up, it's as if someone's struck a tuning fork or they've shone a light in his eyes.

    THC: Do you ever worry that people think of you as a fetishist?

    RC: Um…[pause]…I guess I don’t know what people think about me, and I guess I don’t worry about it that much. If somebody said something, that’d be different. It never occurs me to dwell on what other people might be thinking.

    THC: But you’ve said in the past that it’s still difficult for you to deal with written criticism. So, it’s only hard for you to deal with it when people actually voice criticism?

    RC: I guess it would bother me if I knew what people were thinking, but yeah, I guess that’s accurate.
    WOW, what you said makes alot of sense especially the first point that you make, and yes, I agree that Polr and HA is both weak which in a sense seem pretty similar weakness between Fx polr or any polr.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i'm Fi polr, by your definition.
    I agree. Those two description are practically the same and could apply to me equally.

    "His feeling that this world is not his Fatherland, and that it does not represent his proper condition, so to speak—his feeling that, basically, he 'comes from afar'—will remain a fundamental element which will not give rise to mystical escapism and spiritual weakness, but rather will enable him to minimise, to relativise, to refer to higher concepts of measure and limit, all that can seem important and definitive to others, starting with death itself, and will confer on him calm force and breadth of vision." — Julius Evola

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    so far i fit both. I mean i like when everyone is happy/enthusiastic, but its very circumstantial. That emotional charge is very uncomfortable for me. It has to be really justified. For Fi, I dont like walking on eggshells around people, but I do make sure people aren't being needlessly offensive. I also do not gather large groups. My chosen social interactions are 1-3 other people.
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    how do you try to get someone to like you? How do you try to get close to someone? Which question is more offensive to you? Are you sure you are irrational?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ms. Kensington View Post
    how do you try to get someone to like you? How do you try to get close to someone? Which question is more offensive to you? Are you sure you are irrational?
    Was this to me? If so then I'll answer...

    I dont really "try" to get people to like me. I mostly just stay chill in initial interactions, and later Ill be more spazzy. I don't know how I get close to people either. It seems with these things I let others do all that stuff.

    Neither question is offensive, but trying to get close to someone is better than just attempting to get people to like you. Im damn sure I'm an irrational.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeAnte View Post
    I agree. Those two description are practically the same and could apply to me equally.
    oh yeah, the Fe polr one could also apply to me, but in a very large group it's usually much easier to not stick out and say, clap when everyone else does. who is really looking at you specifically when it's x amount of people in a stadium? big whoop, they're all looking at the soccer team (just an example.) but say a friend on the fly asked me to write/create a toast for her wedding or something. i would feel incredibly uncomfortable with that, especially if said friend had invited a bunch of people i really didn't know well/feel comfortable with. anyhow, i agree. i don't see them as highly different.

    i have made efforts, though, for example to know the customs/norms of politeness when travelling. like, when i was in turkey, i wasn't one of the tourist chicks wearing hotpants when the locals were wearing long skirts/modestly cut shirts/hijabs. i was wearing long skirts/modestly cut shirts/hijabs. that, to me, counts as "politeness" and a respect for a cultural norm. so i didn't feel "Fe polr" in that sense if you can consider that an aspect of Fe polr. i basically do whatever i can to blend in. which is very -seeming in many ways. i mean, why didn't i just wear regular tourist clothing? basically because i was in a new situation and didn't want to test the limits of what was acceptable. although i actually looked "ethnic" to some turks and was even asked if i was of turkish decent, i was still a westerner and sort of pegged as such regardless of how much i tried not to stand out. so that behavior i would think is sort of linked to gaining a sort of tacit acceptance, but not really because i want to be "one with the group." i don't think i really could be. and i don't consider myself that delusional heh. but this is the sort of behavior i engage in occasionally which is a very -seeming motivation, by the standard stereotype of what does. is this deception, in your opinion?

    similarly as being entrenched in spanish/basque and to some degree cuban culture, i am not "bothered" by these people invading my space with hugs and i don't jump back and freak out when my aunt or even a stranger hugs me or does the two-kisses thing in spain. but neither do i expect americans to accept/understand that and i don't go doublekissing strangers that i meet at parties in the states or whatever. is that me being Fe?

    i vaguely recall feeling sort of Fe-pressured (in the sense that misutii describes Fe) when i went out to eat with my dad's ex-wife. she had these really eloquent table manners. i just remember being sort of flummoxed as to which fork to use, and feeling as though she was about to judge me based on that. it would be a joke to say that i am not sort of obsessed/feel lacking in both arenas.

    using 1981slater's definition, i'm not too much like a polr person, more like a -polr person.
    Last edited by implied; 01-02-2009 at 06:27 AM.
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    This thread has allowed me to develop a theory related to the ethics/logic dichotomy. Before I get to it, let me explain a few things. First, I used to consider myself to be an ethical type. This is because I always try to treat people with respect. Before reading this, I had assumed that ethical types consider people's feelings and logical types do not. What this would mean is that logical types deliberately hurt others. Something always struck me as wrong about that; I'm sure that there are many people who pride themselves both on their degree of respect for others and their logical abilities, and, in my opinion, people who don't respect others' feelings are unethical. However, after reading some of the responses in this thread, I now realize that healthy logical types aren't deliberately trying to ignore others' feelings. Further, it helps me to understand some of the problems I face in my life.

    My brother has been bothering me a lot about my behaviour lately, and how "selfish" it has been. For example, we were hanging out with some friends, and I began going on and on about personality typing. I didn't catch on to the fact that most of the people I was talking with were becoming bored and were uninterested. My brother thought that I was being rude, while I didn't think I was doing anything wrong. I also never smile when a photograph is taken of me; I've never considered that not smiling for a photograph makes me look cold - I didn't think anyone would care, but people tell me that it does. Sometimes, I've met with family members and spent the entire time not saying anything (which my brother has told me makes me look like I don't care). I don't do any of these things to be deliberately rude; I simply don't realize that other people are bothered by them.

    Whether my personal anecdotes are accurate or not is irrelevant; the examples in this thread are enough to make me believe that it isn't true that logical types don't care about others' feelings, which, as I said, would be simply unethical, and makes no sense. Further, this has led me to realize that there is an aspect to morality that I don't think that most ethical theorists realize; it isn't simply the extent of the consequences of the act and the mere fact that the individual committing it realizes that it's wrong that determines how wrong the act is; what makes an act wrong is the consequences and the degree to which the individual is aware that the act is wrong. In other words, someone who commits murder and who is strongly aware of how wrong the act is has committed a worse crime than someone who also commits murder but is only vaguely aware of the wrongness of the act. The only problem that this would create for the legal system is that those who aren't very aware of the impact of a crime are more of a threat to society, because they are more likely to engage in criminal acts (and repeat them). Also, this doesn't necessarily mean that sociopaths are less guilty; a sociopath is not defined by the fact that they don't know about the consequences of their actions, but that they don't care. Nonetheless, it is clear to me that someone who hurts someone without realizing how they seem is not doing something as wrong as someone who does the same thing and simply doesn't care.

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    This is how I see them manifested often:

    Fi PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in small groups and especially one-to-one. Not aware of what another person personally finds offensive. Unintentionally (most of the time) hurting/offending another person by saying/doing offensive things. Long-term issue with maintaining stable relations with others due to this. When relations end, to the Fi PoLR type, it is usually sudden, unexpected and painful.

    Fe PoLR: Tendency towards misunderstanding the dynamics in groups, particularly large groups. Not aware of social etiquette associated with different groups. Thus a tendency to unintentionally do or say something that alienates them from the group (i.e. behavior that others find offensive). Hesitation towards doing as others do. Uncomfortable, for example, cheering like everyone else at a sports event or concert.
    I have both, then!

    Oh wait, I'm not alone...
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I have both, then!

    Oh wait, I'm not alone...
    yeah, this guy's example just seems bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    yeah, this guy's example just seems bad.
    I thought misutii was a girl?
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I thought misutii was a girl?
    i think he's actually a guy. lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied View Post
    i think he's actually a guy. lol.
    well he sounds like a she (most of the time), lol
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jason_m View Post
    someone who hurts someone without realizing how they seem is not doing something as wrong as someone who does the same thing and simply doesn't care.
    Yeah, absolutely. Being a moral person has nothing to with being an ethical type.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    well he sounds like a she (most of the time), lol
    well that is how creative manifests itself in guys i guess.

    edit: online I mean. I'm a total man offline.
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