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Thread: Ni as a Base Function

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    Default Attn, INFp's and INTp's: Ni as a Base Function

    I have questions for INxp's*:

    Reading about Ni on the Wiki, I began to wonder some things about the descriptions which are, imo, vague in some places. I guess what I’m asking for is the way you see yourself using/experiencing Ni... whatever direction you choose to take that is fine w me.

    One thing I’m curious about is whether you see yourselves as “mystical and dreamy” - I could see myself describing some INFp’s and INTp’s I know that way sometimes, but I’m not sure that’s how they’d describe themselves.

    Also, Ni is often related to time... can you elaborate on that?


    Here are the Wiki descriptions, in case that gives a good jumping-off point:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki description of Ni as base function for INFp
    IEIs perceive, process, and produce information concerning trends and patterns over time most intensively. They constantly and inadvertently make judgments, assessments, and assumptions about relationships based on what they see as recurring trends from past behavior. They tend to understand the underlying dynamics of situations, people, etc., but may not be able to readily verbalize these insights since they are so internal and conceptual.

    The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types. Their gentle demeanor does not cast them as particularly rebellious, but their obscure desires often are a far cry from those of the typical person.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki description of Ni as base function for INTp
    Introverted intuition in ILIs is predominantly characterized by well developed imaginative abilities and mental wanderings. ILI often spend a great deal of time simply thinking and may spend excessive amounts of time in their mind. This mental focus can be manifest by reflecting on scenarios, on pondering bodies of information, and assorted concepts of interest. They may be prone to excessive day dreaming, in creation of intricate inner worlds or universes, or on considering their past or future. ILIs may even have novelistic tendencies where they create intricate plots, characters, and places. However, ILIs are not always inclined to share their imaginative tendencies or thoughts with others.

    ILIs are naturally attuned to hidden connections between things and hints of greater implications in everyday reality. They easily recognize patterns of events, repeating outcomes, and contradictory messages. This understanding of global patterns and human behavior often allows ILIs to critically analyze present situations and determine the immediate and far-reaching consequences of certain actions. This skill leads the ILI to be seen by others as generally intelligent. The mind of an ILI is an oasis of sorts where knowledge is treated as a toy or even a vehicle that allows them to visit complex mental landscapes that are shaped and continually revised by new information. Nonetheless, an ILI is likely to find the process of accumulating new information tiresome compared to their mental explorations; consequently, new information is often accumulated and updated in a rather lethargic, periodic, and occasionally incomplete fashion.

    ILIs are often stereotypically represented as reclusive scholars, philosophers, scientists, artists, seers, and sages. The ILI, with their often unusual perceptions, may come across as unreachable, esoteric eccentrics. Because ILIs are confident about analyzing the implications of the knowledge that they have gathered, ILIs often appear perceptive, especially in fields of interest, and commonly tend to view the ideas of others with skepticism and scrutiny. ILIs may perceive others' intellectual contributions as deeply misguided or limited in scope.

    ILIs predict inevitable disaster not altogether infrequently. This type of fatalism is spurned by their ability to see the negative in anything, which has its roots in the ILI's general dislike of expressing or reinforcing positive emotions. To an ILI, it may be easier to predict pessimistic results in order to avoid an unpleasant emotional reaction. Likewise, the ILI's sense of general self doubt leads him to be very conservative in his general outlook; why unnecessarily subject oneself to the uncertainty of possible disappointment?
    ILIs typically exhibit a general detachment from day-to-day affairs. While an ILI might devote a great deal of time to pondering the possible consequences of some political decision, very little attention is likely to be paid to such tasks as household maintenance or cleanliness, which the ILI sees as trivial matters not deserving his time or effort.

    ILIs can, in certain situations, act very tentatively. In many situations they are inclined to hesitate prior to taking any action or making important decisions. They may also prefer to observe and gather an understanding of a situation rather than actively participate. The ILI's restraint complements the hyperactivity of his dual, the SEE.
    * Of course, anyone else should feel free to answer as well
    Last edited by female; 12-29-2008 at 01:21 AM.

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    I'm an INTp! Where's dee? I owe that man a beer.

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    I find the ILI description especially fine, gj Niff.

    The IEI description needs a bit of work, maybe strrng should get into the ring?

    i am such a poet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by songsofsappho
    One thing I’m curious about is whether you see yourselves as “mystical and dreamy” - I could see myself describing some INFp’s and INTp’s I know that way sometimes, but I’m not sure that’s how they’d describe themselves.
    The more inwardly-focused nature of INxps (more so Ni subs) may appear "mystical and dreamy" in ways, but it is not intrinsic to Ni, really.

    Also, Ni is often related to time... can you elaborate on that?
    lol. People reifying the idea of "internal field dynamics" into time because it is intangible, connects things and moves. Bologna. Time is such a broad, context-dependent term, that it is fatuous to ascribe it to any one function. Now, is there a certain sense of 'timing' in the subjective rhythm common to many IPs? Maybe. But time itself, as some objective entity, being correlated to a function, is wrong. Understanding causality and whatnot is more of a survival mechanism.

    The INFp description is average. It sort of skates around the main point. Like, the Ni processes we focus on (especially Ni subs) are more ridden with Fe internal reactions, so the themes gleaned will have a less ostensible quality (psychological, social, etc. focus tends to be prominent). But with a focus on Ti, these themes will be organized and synthesized from a more holistic viewpoint, where latent processes evince overriding principles.

    As for the INTp description, what can I say? Everyone needs to satiate their ego. And that shit was mostly niffweed sitting behind a computer, pouring out his cerebral matrix fantasy as a way to validate himself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Allie
    Was this written by someone with no actual experience with real people? For one, hyperactivity does not compliment restraint. Hey guys, it's called temperments. Hyperactive people tend to piss off restrained people and vise versa. And needing someone active to get you off your ass isn't Se dual-seeking, mysterious Wiki writer, it's needing an EJ probably. Please, Ni/Se dual-seeking isn't an exchange of energy. Someone who compliments your energy is going to be someone of the same temperment. Ep-Ip and Ej-Ij. I don't know how many people have mistyped Ej types as Se because they don't understand that Se isn't about your energy level. Ugh.
    lol. The words weren't the best; it was referring to the stereotype of motivation. But really, it's the IxTjs who appreciate that shit in their ExFj duals. INxp-ESxp duality is not exertive in that way; the signals sent back and forth are more fluid. The rationals seem more imposing and controlling to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    I really don't think hyperactivity (as its used in the article) means that SEEs are "in your face." SEE hyperactivity usually relates to their impulsiveness and over-extending of themselves. Someone can still be suave, static and impulsive/hyperactive.
    Right. I think it's a matter of how imposing they are with it, or something.

    Every single description of SEE-ILI duality I've seen talks about SEE impulsiveness and the ILI acting like a critic to their actions. (Many SEEs are a bad mix of impulsiveness and overbearningness and really could use a critic in their lives to help direct them.) But you're right in that may be the language should be clarified or something.
    This stereotype seems exacerbated. I mean, couldn't an LII be a critic of an ESE? I suppose an ILI could give the SEE a better sense of 'rhythm', but really, irrational duality is very relaxed and fluid, for the most part.

    hmm. also not sure I agree with this. An LII would probably react really badly to someone telling him to get "off his arse." Really badly! and possibly even see the person as some kind of callous brute or uncivilized savage. That's both true in terms of personal contact with them and according to Russian descriptions.
    Not if it was done by an ESFj. Applying force isn't Se; but the way someone does it is. Of course an LII would hate the more direct pressure of an SEE, but they would gorge the effusive "pressure" applied by their duals.

    According to the duality descriptions, the ESE draws the LII into helping them by stirring an emotional display. The LII then feels personally compelled to help them on their own volition.
    Not sure.

    Ep and Ip are totally different temperaments. So are Ej and Ij.
    She meant complementary.

    I don't think "temperaments" can even be used to describe the function characteristics listed here.
    Temperaments very much can and should be used to describe things pertaining to energy levels—which encompass things like motivation. Functions will color the manner in which one expresses it, but temperaments are the 'life rhythms'.
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    Ok, I don't particularly think the IEI description is inaccurate; though, something about it leaves a bitter taste in your mouth. As strrrng said, it's generalized and fails to really explain things as thoroughly as I'd prefer.

    One thing I’m curious about is whether you see yourselves as “mystical and dreamy” - I could see myself describing some INFp’s and INTp’s I know that way sometimes, but I’m not sure that’s how they’d describe themselves.
    I think this more or less describes how an IEI would come off to others.

    Though, I can not lie that people often view me as dreamy and spacey, I do not really like to use those terms to describe myself. I also would not choose to describe myself as mystical, but yet again, I can't really say that I don't come off that way to others. In actuality, I see myself as quite grounded as far as my thoughts, generalizations and ideas would go (though, they're sometimes hard to grasp and explain verbally) which is why I do not particularly like this:

    The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types.
    I don't really recall a point in my life where this has really occurred? I know people have become annoyed with me over my poor organization skills, and abrasiveness, but never with my "mystical/dreamy" qualities.
    Last edited by fox; 12-29-2008 at 07:04 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    Ok, I don't particularly think the IEI description is bad, but I will admit that something about it just leaves a bitter taste in your mouth. As strrrng said, it's too generalized and fails to really explain things thoroughly enough.



    I think this more or less describes how an IEI would come off to others.
    I guess we can appear unaware to things, or looking through things in a sort of uninterested manner. It doesn't mean we're trying to be, or aren't *aware* to the environment. I tend to be extremely sensorily aware at times; not as consistently as one of my duals, but nonetheless.

    Though, I can not lie that people often view me as dreamy and spacey, I do not really like to use those terms to describe myself. I also would not choose to describe myself as mystical, but yet again, I can't really say that I don't come off that way to others. In actuality, I see myself as quite grounded as far as my thoughts, generalizations and ideas would go (though, they're sometimes hard to grasp and explain verbally) which is why I do not particularly like this:
    Yeah. I'm not really "mystical" at all. I'm into more abstract subjects, and my associations can take on a more image-based nature, but that doesn't make me dreamy, mystical, etc. J-sub ESxps tend to be very abstract too—more so than say, a Te-INTp.

    I also am against the attributions of hesitance and uncertainty to Ni. It makes it seem as though we can't take a position on things, presumably because we are too busy, what was it, "predicting inevitable disaster." First of all, Ni types don't necessarily "predict" shit any more than the next, as far as being nostradamus goes. They have a finer grasp of intangible processes, but this doesn't necessitate a focus on forecasting. And the reticence thing... horseshit. It's an insult. I know what I feel, think and want to do. bleh.

    I don't really recall a point in my life where this has really occurred? I know people have become annoyed with me over my poor organization skills, and abrasiveness, but never with my "mystical/dreamy" qualities.
    I don't know. There are some INFps out there who are completely self-absorbed. Alice in Wonderland shit.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostage_Child View Post
    And with other of Allie's beef, I can understand the pov, but an EJ would NOT help an IP get moving. An EP is ideal because they are forgiving of IP laziness, usually, and with their own spontaneous energy, the IP kind of just follows along and both parties tend to help each other focus. EJs, IME, want someone who is already responsible and duty-minded. They don't want to deal with a stereotypical IP because from what I have seen, it just gets them stressed out which stresses the IP out. It's not very pretty.
    IP's don't have to be lazy, and EJ's don't have to be hard-working. The reason they conflict is because they are situated with two different energy orientations and rhythms. The way the EJ processes activity is diametrical to the IP's preference, thus conflicting. EPs go well with IPs because the spontaneous activity they engage in gives external positions and points to the subjectively-oriented rhythm the IP tends to get in. Likewise, the IP creates an undercurrent of sorts for the EP to fall back on. With EJs and IJs, it seems that the static, controlled IJ appreciates the more direct form of activity conferred to him by the EJ, while the EJ appreciates the grounding quality that the IJ gives to them.
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    What about the INTp description reveals that Niff is an INTj?

    Maybe explaining that would help me with determining my own type, because I'm very close to that description, especially the Ni part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    What about the INTp description reveals that Niff is an INTj?

    Maybe explaining that would help me with determining my own type, because I'm very close to that description, especially the Ni part.
    If I am ISFp (which I am 99% sure of) and he is INTj, I will lol. I know many INTj, and he is not one of them. Nothing about the way he speaks sparks my intellectual curiosity. The way he talks is liking reading a 1000 page treatise on silt.
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    BUT I STILL LIKE HIM
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    I don't have obscure desires. I just glaze/white wash everything, you know? My thought processes are still very much based in facts, just in a well-rounded version one could say. I ignore details and instructions to achieve my goals. (te-ignoring) I tend to go for the dreams instead of the steps to achieve the dream, and that usually causes its own problems. I tried to rewire my brain to work in a different fashion but I can't.

    That doesn't mean that like I think I can ride green dragons in a free fantasy spirited world all day. (Nor would I want to) All types achieve psychological health from working on some sort of 'reality.' That's what that description is making it sound like though, kinda. That I'm satisfied just dreaming my life away, which isn't the truth - such an existence feels like a painful slow suicide that I want to be woken up from. (Se dual seeking) If that's how I come across to other types, I think it's also partly their fault for stereotyping me in such a fashion.

    I'm definitely a fantasy-ist, idealist though...but even that, has to be taken into its proper perspective. Those that don't properly understand fantasy, or the joy of writing and exploring massive inner worlds with no apparent point probably cannot relate too well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm definitely a fantasy-ist, idealist though...but even that, has to be taken into its proper perspective. Those that don't properly understand fantasy, or the joy of writing and exploring massive inner worlds with no apparent point probably cannot relate too well.
    Thats what I do. But Im supposedly not an Ni. I am lost.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArchonAlarion View Post
    Thats what I do. But Im supposedly not an Ni. I am lost.
    Just keep on believing and eventually you will forget how feels.
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    I want the same things everybody else wants.

    Good eats, good relationships, a sense of purpose/drive etc.

    How are those 'obscure?' Well they are in the sense they are very general, so I get that (as all our human ideals go) - but I do not think I am special or better than anybody else. How can I be? Obscure makes it sound like I have special gifts that other people don't have. That I'm destined to king arthur something out of a stone. I just don't think this way. Maybe I used to when I was younger, since I was so insecure I needed the self-confidence to make me think that I have to make something happen using superpowers. But you outgrow that shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    I can not lie that people often view me as dreamy and spacey, I do not really like to use those terms to describe myself. I also would not choose to describe myself as mystical, but yet again, I can't really say that I don't come off that way to others. In actuality, I see myself as quite grounded as far as my thoughts, generalizations and ideas would go (though, they're sometimes hard to grasp and explain verbally) which is why I do not particularly like this:

    The temporal world of the IEI is vivid and complex. IEI's are very imaginative people who tend to be more mystical and dreamy, thus possibly annoying more practical or "grounded" types.
    I don't really recall a point in my life where this has really occurred? I know people have become annoyed with me over my poor organization skills, and abrasiveness, but never with my "mystical/dreamy" qualities.
    This is really interesting to me - it's sort of like why I asked the question in the first place. It occurred to me that while I sometimes see INXp's as "dreamy," not only might they not agree but they might be insulted by that desription, especially as it might have a negative connotation like "spacey" or something.

    -

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    The more inwardly-focused nature of INxps (more so Ni subs) may appear "mystical and dreamy" in ways, but it is not intrinsic to Ni, really.

    lol. People reifying the idea of "internal field dynamics" into time because it is intangible, connects things and moves. Bologna. Time is such a broad, context-dependent term, that it is fatuous to ascribe it to any one function. Now, is there a certain sense of 'timing' in the subjective rhythm common to many IPs? Maybe. But time itself, as some objective entity, being correlated to a function, is wrong. Understanding causality and whatnot is more of a survival mechanism.
    Yeah, I figured the mystical/dreamy thing was probably too much of a stereotype. Like I said, sometimes Ni-dominants seem "dreamy" to me, but it's in more of a detatched/in-their-head way than necessarily "out of it" or whatever else.

    The description of Ni as "intuition of time" has always confused me a bit. I think what you are getting at is that INXp's are adept at perceiving/anticipating [not necessarily predicting] the way events will unfold over time. [Whereas those weaker in Ni, particularly ESXj's, will struggle with this.] Yes?

    Like, the Ni processes we focus on (especially Ni subs) are more ridden with Fe internal reactions, so the themes gleaned will have a less ostensible quality (psychological, social, etc. focus tends to be prominent). But with a focus on Ti, these themes will be organized and synthesized from a more holistic viewpoint, where latent processes evince overriding principles.
    Interesting... what sorts of themes are you referring to, specifically? Would you mind giving examples?

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    I will try to find an older Ni-base description that's not there on the wiki, songofsappho. It might not focus too much on what Ni has developed to mean in modern socionics terms (or whatever) but I think it's a good piece of writing which gives great insight about how INXps feel about themselves and the world around them, as it was also written by one.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I will try to find an older Ni-base description that's not there on the wiki, songofsappho. It might not focus too much on what Ni has developed to mean in modern socionics terms (or whatever) but I think it's a good piece of writing which gives great insight about how INXps feel about themselves and the world around them, as it was also written by one.
    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    This is really interesting to me - it's sort of like why I asked the question in the first place. It occurred to me that while I sometimes see INXp's as "dreamy," not only might they not agree but they might be insulted by that desription, especially as it might have a negative connotation like "spacey" or something.
    For me I feel like being labeled as spacey has negative connections to it. It's an aspect about myself that I'm not entirely proud of and somewhat insecure about. This may be something entirely personal though; I'm not really aware of how other INXp's would feel about this.

    btw, I forgot to mention that I found this part of the description very accurate to myself:

    IEIs perceive, process, and produce information concerning trends and patterns over time most intensively. They constantly and inadvertently make judgments, assessments, and assumptions about relationships based on what they see as recurring trends from past behavior. They tend to understand the underlying dynamics of situations, people, etc., but may not be able to readily verbalize these insights since they are so internal and conceptual.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Starfall View Post
    btw, I forgot to mention that I found this part of the description very accurate to myself:
    Is that you in your avatar, Starfall? Cuz if it is, you're really creepying me out here.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    Is that you in your avatar, Starfall? Cuz if it is, you're really creepying me out here.
    No, it's not me.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    I'm relieved.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    Yeah, I figured the mystical/dreamy thing was probably too much of a stereotype. Like I said, sometimes Ni-dominants seem "dreamy" to me, but it's in more of a detatched/in-their-head way than necessarily "out of it" or whatever else.
    Yeah. They can be just as much 'in it' as anyone else; they just process 'it' in a more fluid, abstract manner.

    The description of Ni as "intuition of time" has always confused me a bit. I think what you are getting at is that INXp's are adept at perceiving/anticipating [not necessarily predicting] the way events will unfold over time. [Whereas those weaker in Ni, particularly ESXj's, will struggle with this.] Yes?
    I don't link understanding temporal processes to Ni very much. While it is dynamic and internal in nature, what it actually does is much more specific than anticipating things, daydreaming, or my personal favorite, "transcending the axis of time." It's weird because to me, Ni works very quickly, often exigently. There is an aspect of 'time', in that, when in a given situation, one will continually synthesize things in a sort of receptive manner, but when it actually does something, it's like a zipline. You know, like one of those things connecting two sides of a cliff or something, and you just slide all the way down it? And I think that sort of evinces its preference for 'essential themes', in that, from the accruing of [dynamic] information, it then winnows through it all, arriving at a coalescence of sorts, where the 'string' () connecting everything is elucidated. And thus, nothing more needs to be said.

    Ne types seem to hate this, and reject any notion of an "essence," as every abstraction they conceive of is of a localized and discrete nature. 'Wait, but this can be expanded in this way, and these things share multiple similarities'—tends to be a common sentiment. That is well and good, but not Ni's purposes.

    Interesting... what sorts of themes are you referring to, specifically? Would you mind giving examples?
    I don't want to sound pretentious, but the word archetypal is a good summation. Not because Ni deals with archetypes per say, but because the nature of the themes which it perceives are "archetypal" (see bottom)—abstract, unrelated to an immediate context. Like, if you're observing a person. You may sort of get a feeling about the process 'going on' with them; there's some undercurrent, nuances serve as beacons for the direction. And over time it becomes distilled, until you stumble upon the central feature of that process you sensed happening a few minutes ago (to be distinguished from internal/external Fe/Te "processes," these being discrete and objective) and it takes the form of something much more abstract than 'this person is acting this way because of this.' Images are conjured, metaphors offer connections, but it is all about the latent characteristics.

    Archetypal: Of, relating to, or denoting an original that has been imitated. This is sort of what I was referring to. Ni focuses on the 'original' process, and discards everything else as extraneous 'imitations' of said thing.

    And I note that this central theme is not somehow 'deeper' than information conveyed by the (feedback loops) of other elements. Functions are merely different paths to the same destination.
    Last edited by strrrng; 12-29-2008 at 10:39 AM.
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  24. #24
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    Re temperaments: From what I see, temperaments are formed out of the base function, that is for instance, an Ne dominant is extraverted and irrational, an Si dominant is introverted and irrational and Te is extraverted and rational etc. One can't deny the impact the base function has on a person..it is the function which very much defines us.

    With that in mind, the temperaments do mean a lot. If you observe people, over the course of time you can see the differences in behaviour in comparison to other dominant functions.

    The base function, and hence the temperament, play a large part in a persons behaviour.

    IME, there may be slight differences in how it manifests in say an Ne and an Se (both EP temperaments) but overall the effects are very noticeable. I guess it comes down to experience IRL, and debating over a forum IME isn't really a substitute for that..but still even then, the differences in temperaments still matter..and basically exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by songofsappho View Post
    Thanks
    Sorry sappho, I can't seem to find it... I don't have it in my internet bookmarks but it was there on the old forum, together with some other leading function descriptions if I remember well. I had no luck browsing through those pages this time unfortunately.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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