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Thread: Discussion of LII-INTj subtypes

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    Default Discussion of LII-INTj subtypes

    ok everytime I think i've "definitely" decided my type between INTj/INTp something fucks me up

    i have a roommate from college that tested INTJ on MB, when i'd always test INTP

    Some of the descriptions here for INTps i see glimmers of at least on the surface, superficial level. I think i probably dress more INTp than INTj?? bah

    but the thing is I see my friend as maybe fitting socionics INTj in little hints-- she tries to be healthy, and I am completely oblivious to caring properly about my health but develop paranoia that manifests in the form of washing my hands ten thousand times, etc

    She is very J in behavior, I always saw her having a good sense of time and she has always devised great schedules for chores as well as planned many an event/project.. seemed Te..

    but i get confused

    so....

    i was wondering if we could both be INTj and she was thinking subtype and I intuitive subtype .. i know INTp has Ni while INTj has Ne, not to mention Ti, I just thought it might explain our j/p differences in behavior..

    anyone know different subtypes of the same type? I think slava said something about that but didn't substantiate it , enough to satisfy me anyway!

    dhsj help

    its been an obsessive day.

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    because, if she IS INTp and I am INTj, shouldn't SHE be the one who always wears black and others think is weird?

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    Default Discussion of LII-INTj subtypes

    I am positive I am a INTJ NE Subtype.

    What can you tell me about them and who else here is INTJ NE.

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    I want to know how they are different to the Logical Subtype.

    I have read as much as I could but I want more information.

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    Well, I think my bro is Ne-INTj, and he's very probing, less concerned with systems or certainty. He has this way of not expressing an opinion when you know he's got one. Slowly, bit by bit he'll ask innocuous questions to probe you and get a feel for what you think, with every passing second honing in on the heart of it without imposing what he thinks at all. It's a purely vicarious experience for him. Often, he won't directly express what it is he's thinking at all. Possibilities weigh heavy for him, far more than what might seem reasonable given the circumstances; a mental explorer. He likes to play within sets of rules to see what happens without regards sometimes for what might be most effective. He doesn't set goals per se, but tries to enjoy things which for him means being able to vault about without people naysaying him. He's incredibly generous, to the point that you want to give him the same. Nicer than you can imagine, and hands off. He lets you do your thing. He may ask questions, but he doesn't push. Curiousity abounds with him. In the absence of straight forward emotional communication he hurts, and he has an open way of expressing it that forces you to feel it yourself. He desires an easy, open, positive environment that allows him to delve into his interests. Laughs easily, without concern for appearances. Even at odd moments he won't hold back. He puts other people first. When things aren't what he expects, he sulks to the point that you can tell he wants someone to shine for him and that would be all he needs. He's funny. He's brilliant. He's my twin and the single most admirable individual I know.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    INTj are strict, hard-working and bust on people
    INTj are friendly, lazy and have weird hobbies
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Bust on people ?

    Give me and Example

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Being mean, rude, cold, use aggressive language...and be unaware of all this
    ILE "Searcher"
    Socionics: ENTp
    DCNH: Dominant --> perhaps Normalizing
    Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
    MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
    Astrological sign: Aquarius

    To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Well, I think my bro is Ne-INTj
    Thats an interesting combination. You are INFj-Ne.
    What sort of a relationship does and INFj-Ne have with an INTj-Ne. There must be a lot of oberlapping similarities or something.
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Quote Originally Posted by kensi View Post
    Thats an interesting combination. You are INFj-Ne.
    What sort of a relationship does and INFj-Ne have with an INTj-Ne. There must be a lot of oberlapping similarities or something.
    It's a very effortless, pressureless sort of relationship. We mostly hang out by doing things together like games where he experiments with the systems and rules and I play the voice of reason, or he'll go on and on about all the possible combinations of classes and abilities and I'll just sort of sit back and be his sounding board, or occasionally the advocate for his ideas (and I generally am content to let him do that kind of thinking, unless his feet are losing touch with the ground, so to speak).

    I'm not sure how well this jives with socionics would predict (the immense ease of how we get along was one of the reasons I thought I could be ISFp), but maybe it's just because we're twins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Wow, I didn't know that you and your brother were twins . Identical?
    only on the left side.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Wow, I didn't know that you and your brother were twins . Identical?
    No
    Quote Originally Posted by Bionicgoat View Post
    only on the left side.
    Yes

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    The friend I had who was INTj-Ne was constantly searching for some sort of emotional spike in life, and acted out alot. We did it together. Also, he was very good at understanding me when I was talking on the verge of incoherence.. which tends to happen. He was really good at pointing out inconsistencies in language. He helped me to develop my communication skills in some ways .. All in all fun to go drinking with. He was a bit too socially proud, though. But it didn't bother me. He was a change from the average idiot, and more relaxed than the Ti subtype INTj.

    We used to get high on aderall together and debate philosophy. We did it for 10 hours straight one time. We read Wittgenstein together. I came up with crazy ideas, he told me how I was wrong. Eventually we reached a consensus. We were a good thinking team. Sometimes he'd get tired of my constant over analysis.

    ..That's my input
    INTp

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    Default Ti subtype is the more disorderly INTj?

    Ignore my signature typing; I am INTj.

    For the purposes of this thread, assume the 2 subtypes model is real (i.e. there exist Base and Creative subtypes of every type).

    A lot of people call me a Ti subtype, but since this is the subtype with an emphasis on the Rational function, it is usually assumed that this subtype manifests more strongly than average the properties of a Rational type.

    This isn't the case for me at all. The Rational/Irrational dichotomy has always been the most ambiguous for me, if not simply the one that tends to peg me wrong.

    Now, my own theories hold that there is another property of this function that is worth taking in account: it is a Diffuse function as opposed to a Focal one. The way I typically interpret Diffuse, it involves some properties that could easily be confused for the chaotic, disorderly kind of characteristics that are usually associated with Irrational.

    Now, just independent from how I arrive at the conclusion I'd just like to throw the suggestion out there: is Ti subtype really the organized one of the two, or is it more like some decisive influence that establishes itself easily in a relatively chaotic world, i.e. something that can make decisions and act confidently without the need for extensive organization? I think this latter possibility is worthy of consideration.

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    I could put this another way...

    Given that:
    - a lot of people spontaneously reach the intuitive conclusion that I am Ti subtype
    - I report, honestly, that my habits and behavioral patterns are less orderly than is generally even assumed of INTjs

    People that assign worth to both of these conditions might want to start paying attention to this Focal/Diffuse dichotomy that I've been investigating for the last few years, which more or less predicts that these conditions go together.

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    Ti subtype is the more disorderly INTj?
    Dunno. It makes no sense to me.

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    What are you doing? you're supposed to parrot my every word.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    What are you doing? you're supposed to parrot my every word.
    Don't you worry. I'm sure there will be a lot of chance.

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    If I've understood what I've read correctly...
    Accepting () subtype is supposed to use Logic in everyday situations and Intuition to plan life and career. Producing () subtype is supposed to use Intuition in everyday situations and Logic to plan life and career.

    If by "less orderly" you mean "messy", I have found that the exaggerated clean/messy dichotomy is best ascribed to Sensing/Intuition rather than Judging/Perceiving. Even the primitive test on Socioniko hints to this:
    You are tempted by possibilities, finding unusual solutions. You are not desperate for immediate results; you live more often in the past or in the future than in the present; you foresee well the development of events; strive for extension of your knowledge, in doing this you sometimes acquire even knowledge “redundant” for the present; you often are distracted, routine chores make you feel depressed
    You are focused on achieving concrete results in a determined term; you like living in the here and now; as a rule, you are accurate, do not like visionarism; are very attentive to the details; you manage well organizing space around yourself, are capable of arranging living conditions for yourself and for other people; are capable of performing monotonous work without getting nervous.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    If by "less orderly" you mean "messy", I have found that the exaggerated clean/messy dichotomy is best ascribed to Sensing/Intuition rather than Judging/Perceiving. Even the primitive test on Socioniko hints to this:
    Interesting. I do have suspicions along these lines, but I can also think of at least one counterexample from my every day life (INFj mother: quite orderly; definitely more so than me).

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    Is that more counterexamples than you can find for the J/P version? I can live with outliers as long as they're minimized.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    . I know some really messy and filthy sensors. I am going to list all of them now and some examples of their wrongdoings. First: my ESFp sister who is as messy as one can be. Also my ISFj uncle. There is something wrong with him. I remember him once vomiting in his room and not cleaning it for days. Wtf? Also this ISTj-Ti guy who was my roomate for 12 days. Messy, messy, messy..plus his teeth looked like indian graveyard. I'm not sure how strong is this relation you people are talking about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trevor View Post
    . Also my ISFj uncle. There is something wrong with him. I remember him once vomiting in his room and not cleaning it for days. Wtf?
    lmao

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    Those people sound extremely unhealthy. People on the left side of the unhealthy-healthy spectrum are probably going to be emphasizing their weaknesses more than their strengths.
    ILI (FINAL ANSWER)

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    lmao
    Don't make fun. It keeps out the mudflies in the spring.

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    lmao
    seconded

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    Yeah I know a lot of Ti subtype LIIs who make claims that at first seem outrageous, then after a few months pass you realize they had the right idea all along.

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    - a lot of people spontaneously reach the intuitive conclusion that I am Ti subtype
    - I report, honestly, that my habits and behavioral patterns are less orderly than is generally even assumed of INTjs
    Yes, behaviour isn't a good indicator for subtype. I'm still lazy as hell and would be the irrational subtype which I'm not.

    But my writing style is less poetic than that of the Ni type and more to the point as expected from Te.

    I have the (vague) idea that you are Ti subtype, based on writing style.

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    It's first and foremost accepting/producing, not "Logical" or "rational" or "introverted" subtype. Accepting subtypes are less, well, producing. I won't say active... it seems more about making a stamp on your environment while accepting is in a more of a self-reference loop. Kinda. And don't take it too literally.

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    Can "Accepting" and "Producing" be interpreted literally, though? I personally associate Accepting with a certain type of chaotic or inconsiderate behavior, because the more rigid, structural, difficult-to-reach side of the function (Static) is what's Diffuse (i.e. indiscriminate, contingent, variable).

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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Can "Accepting" and "Producing" be interpreted literally, though? I personally associate Accepting with a certain type of chaotic or inconsiderate behavior, because the more rigid, structural, difficult-to-reach side of the function (Static) is what's Diffuse (i.e. indiscriminate, contingent, variable).
    I only treat them "literally" in so far as to consider it a strengthening/accentuating/whatever you say subtype actually does of accepting/producing function in each block. This matches with rational/irrational, but it's reversed for rational/irrational types. And while speaking of those probably has some merit, I was only able to get the feel of these subtypes considering the former approach.

    I find the names about as fitting as those of the functions, which seem to work intuitively, though it's something hard to describe clearly.

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    Accepting usually lives somewhat more in their own world, and seem more egoistic.
    Producing are more inclined to make contact with others even somewhat imposing.

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    Description of LII subtypes by Meged & Ovcharov from the wiki.


    Logical subtype Ti-INTj (Ti-LII)

    Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov

    Ti-LII Appearance:
    The logical subtype is usually calm, serious and self-contained. Often quite categorical and uncompromising in his judgments, not leaving any room for appeals. When the topic of conversation does not interest him, he is silent and austere, looks at his partners with gravity. If someone behaves disdainfully, he can put them in their place. Able to clearly and laconically, without superfluous emotions, explain his thoughts. Does not like lengthy discussions and discourse. Spend lots of time thinking and reflecting: analyzing and comparing various phenomena, figures and facts. Makes an impression of a strong-willed person. His lips are often densely compressed, speech precise and abrupt, voice lacks in varying intonations. Balanced, even, correct, unemotional. However, his otherwise frozen facial expression sometimes reflects his internal emotions in unexpected and impulsive movements of muscles.

    Ti-LII Character:
    He has well-developed analytic thinking abilities of a logical inclination and is well-versed in systems, schemes, classifications and structures. Identifies the main components and cuts off anything that is of secondary nature. Likes to generalize particulars and discrete facts. Distrustful of new ideas until he can check them for himself; thereupon, he can become their staunch supporter and proponent. Realistic about evaluating the prospects, potential, and opportunities of any project. Puts business above personal interests and relationships. In the interests of his work can ignore his convenience and comfort. Very appreciative of fairness and reasonable order.

    Usually he is polite, proper, and serious. Very straightforward in his behavior, lacks in flexibility and diplomacy in his relations. Fairly stable in his feelings and affections. Does not like uninvited guests and unexpected phone calls. Unlikely to take initiative with unfamiliar people. As a rule, has few friends, limiting his social circle to work colleagues and a few like-minded associates. Poorly versed in how other people relate to him and is thus quite restrained in communication. Hides his impressionability under the mask of austerity. Does not seek to win over the sympathies of others. Prefers to talk about topics that interest him, and ignores or omits anything extraneous. If the topic is of no interest to him, he tries to avoid the conversation to not waste his time. He doesn't like compliments, imposing and annoying advice, or too much attention directed at his person, but deep inside he is in need of a positive evaluation of his activities.

    Purposeful; persistently and stubbornly strives for implementation of the set objectives. Inclined to present himself with increased demands. Hard-working and meticulous when carrying out his work. Can make himself do a job that is uninteresting but required. Dislikes doing several things at once, especially in a hurry. This is a person of his word. Proponent of discipline and order backed up by administrative means rather than by conscience and sense of personal responsibility. He believes that if a person has made a choice, then he or she is fully accountable for this decision. Dislikes having to defend his interests, but if needed he can stand up for himself, showing stubbornness and uncompromising attitude. Poorly tolerates being ordered around. Coolly responds to any external strong-willed pressuring. To sharp criticisms may respond in kind; If necessary, can deliver a reproof. Himself resorts to coercion very rarely, only when other measures fail.

    Knows how to plan his activities so as to avoid unnecessary congestion. Prefers to lead a calm, measured style of life. Tries to watch his health as key to good performance. Can do with a minimum of things, does not seek comfort, and dislikes excess. Attentive to his close ones, but reluctantly takes care of domestic problems. He would rather devote most of his time to work and hobbies.

    Ti-LII Description by Victor Gulenko: Concrete and structured, distrusts too far-flung ideas. He is an organizer in research. Erudite, but only within his narrow area of competence. An adherent of reasonable systems. In behavior he is dry, restrained, can be authoritarian. Does not love discussions and frictions in a group. Holds himself at a large psychological distance. Wears clothing that is strict, tries to be in good physical shape.


    Sexual behavior of subtypes: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...s_and_Subtypes


    Intuitive subtype Ne-INTj (Ne-LII)

    Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov


    Ne-LII Appearance:
    The intuitive subtype appears soft even a bit diffident in communication. In conversation, he is restrained, attentive, attempts to come into good favor of his partner by giving advice and impressing him or her with his knowledge and conclusions. In such cases, his serious demeanor and gaze soften, goodwill permeates his voice. Not always absolute and categorical in his statements, but obstinate and uncompromising in his actions. May keep silent and refrain from the discussion, but won't change his opinion. His usually imperceptible emotions become visible during moments of extreme nervous pressure within intonations of his voice and impulsive gestures. Gait is calm and synchronous. Pose appears a bit restrained, especially in the shoulders which may be stooped. His movements are somewhat unsure and dilatory. Gestures are stingy and constrained, occasionally unconsciously impulsive and poorly coordinated.

    Ne-ILE Character:
    Likes to analyze various phenomena and processes. Inclined towards anything that is new and unusual, especially if it falls into the sphere of his interests. Often has a rich imagination and tries to introduce elements of creativity into his work. Has a good feel for the prospects of new ideas and initiatives. Willingly develops and works out new ideas for practical application. Able to analyze specific topics in great depth, but also shows an interest in the adjacent fields. Stable in his work performance, but quickly grows tired of routine and is in need of fresh impressions and changes.

    Excitable in disputes; can inspire others with some idea. Becomes uncompromising in debates when his principles are concerned, but tries to develop in himself tolerance for other people's weaknesses and for differing points of view. Usually knows how to hear out his conversation partner and to encourage his initiative in useful direction. Evaluates abilities of others and finds them a proper application. May be a good speaker and lecturer capable of briefly and clearly conveying the material to his listeners.

    Reserved, amiable to an extent, polite, and even-tempered, but rarely becomes very close with anyone, for he easily tires of social interaction. If he is interested in a person, he is able to come into his or her good favor by establishing intellectual contact and intriguing with ideas and new suggestions. Quite private, does not like discussing his personal life and does not allow his feelings to take precedence over the interests of business or personal principles. Although in relation with others he is reserved and distrustful, he is inclined to reciprocate the feelings of another person and show attention to his or her problems. Seeks support in active, lively, and strong-spirited people, who know how to encourage and provide help in business matters. Needs an emotional, optimistically oriented partner who would know how to raise his vitality. But at the slightest infringement of his independence, he retreats into himself, stubbornly defending his principles up to a break up of relations. Allows himself to get directed only by those who can persuade gently and not too aggressively.

    Enemy of the administrative pressuring and control; considers it obstructive to the development of a person's potential. Convinced that the main thing in work is not sense of duty but interest in the project. Strives for independence. However, at the same time he is usually disciplined, punctual, and conscientious. Makes up his plans himself and follows them exactly. Usually does not run late to events but makes it in the allotted time.

    Sometimes he is too categorical in his judgments and intolerant of different points of view. He will not dramatically change his beliefs, conclusions, habits and orientations under the influence of new facts and circumstances. He reviews and changes his former views with much difficulty and sometimes exhibits senseless obstinacy. Due to high self-esteem and a developed sense of dignity, it can be difficult for him to admit to being wrong. All of this does not make him the easiest partner to deal with and creates plenty of interpersonal problems in his life. Internally, he may acutely experience his disappointments, but tries to avoid quarrels out of fear of losing control and losing respect of others. Skeptical and distrustful, but does not show this. Restrained in the expression of his feelings, but when he is in a good mood can liven up the conversation with his humor.

    Yielding and compliant in matters of everyday life. If he cannot completely avoid household chores and other mundane tasks, he will try to postpone them. Dislikes bureaucracy, having to petition various departments and to prepare documents. Shows inertness in such matters even if he sees that his project is suffering. Tries to rely on the help of others in such cases. Does not always take care of his health, but understands its importance. In treatment of illness lacks in consistency and follow-through. Tries to keep up with latest tastes and prevailing styles, to have a presentable appearance.

    Ne-LII Description by Victor Gulenko: Analyst, good researcher and conceptualizer. Gives his attention to problems of general nature. Generator of options and ideas. Places more importance on future potential achievements rather than results of the current moment. Smooth, polite, careful in social interaction. Outwardly often seems asthenic, pays attention to his outward appearance and to his health.
    Last edited by silke; 09-14-2017 at 09:35 PM. Reason: updated translated descriptions

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    Default Intuitive subtype of LII Ne-INTj

    Ever since I learned about current events in the fifth grade I have always been interested in the world news. I follow the news everyday and stay up to date with what is happening in the world. I have a fairly decent knowledge of who is in power, who is visiting which country, civil wars, terrorist attacks, famines, medical breakthroughs, etc. I'm just wondering is the global news a common interest for INTJ intuitives?

    Apart of my reasoning is not entirely a personal testimony. I read a subtype description that basically said the intuitive subtype is a global thinker.

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    Samuel the Gabriel H. MisterNi's Avatar
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    Yeah, I think tends to be very expansive and focus on breadth rather than depth. is what gives depth to the broad perceptions.

    On another note, I'm also very interested in world news.

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    Le roi internet Bluenoir's Avatar
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    I tend to delve into many topics, I have a hard time keeping my interests specialized.

    I think a wide overall grasp of what's going on, is better than to develop a deep understanding of only a very small area of knowledge. It's not as if I have eternity to learn everything, So I might as well keep my perspective wide while still having a reasonable depth of understanding in what interests me the most.
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    24601 ClownsandEntropy's Avatar
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    I'm not too much a fan of world news - sometimes I'll watch it, but it's usually only to make sure I'm aware of what's happening. In that sense, it's more of a duty that I feel I ought to start knowing what happens in the world. My likely-ESTj friend seems to be a big fan of the news, and what's happening in it, and discussing recent things that have come up.

    I guess I just don't find world news interesting, whereas there are so many other things that are interesting. Always seems to be different countries having different arguments over things, far too much tragedy and all. Actually, one think that I do find a little bit interesting is listening to economists talk: talk about how things affect what you should invest in, and whether countries will be likely to grow. Sounds a little bit -ish, doesn't it?... then again, it's only a little bit of interest.
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    I am very interested in broad global events. However, I get my info from unconventional sources like like G Edward Griffin. I have developed a strong distrust for mainstream sources of info. I love the internet, I think its the first free press the world has had in 100 years. Some of it is crap but some of it is true and the opposite of what you learn on TV or in school.

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    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    i was uninterested in the news as a kid and through most of adolescence and early adult life. have only recently started paying attention. it helps to have a mental context to place events in based on knowledge of psychology, political theory, economics, etc. without that you can't tell the spin from reality.

    I am very interested in broad global events. However, I get my info from unconventional sources like like G Edward Griffin. I have developed a strong distrust for mainstream sources of info. I love the internet, I think its the first free press the world has had in 100 years. Some of it is crap but some of it is true and the opposite of what you learn on TV or in school.
    its good to check what people like Griffin, Jones and Tarpley say with a forum like this: http://forums.randi.org/forumdisplay.php?f=91

    i think you'll find they're talking out of unsavory orifices half of the time. they're entertainment, but little else.

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