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    aw don't worry about the government
    asd

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    Edited for gayness.
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    well, if the united states(a.k.a. we, lololol) conquer every nation in the world, everyone will be united.
    asd

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    War has achieved so much already, heading over to Iran is going to do a world of good... I shudder to think of a world in which the US government/military isn't constantly looking over everyones shoulders and taking over our docks for their undeniably altruistic missions of peace.

    Ditto Transigent about societal growth.

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    More war? Geez, would nearly think that GWB likes human suffering...

    Kiddos, if you want to destroy a nation, you might want to consider doing it in such a way that you do not lose the favour of every single other kid in the playground, with the exception of that has-been big bully of the yard that is desperate to stay in the graces of the big boys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darklord
    More war? Geez, would nearly think that GWB likes human suffering...

    Kiddos, if you want to destroy a nation, you might want to consider doing it in such a way that you do not lose the favour of every single other kid in the playground, with the exception of that has-been big bully of the yard that is desperate to stay in the graces of the big boys.
    Not to mention the laconic, nasal-toned side-kick who is just desperate for attention

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    you are reading too much into it Transigent. even if he wanted to do that he couldn't pull it off with with his current lack of political capital. also a lot of that is more of an international posturing sort of thing combined with his desire to display a sort of determined resolve on his anti-proliferation stance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you are reading too much into it Transigent. even if he wanted to do that he couldn't pull it off with with his current lack of political capital. also a lot of that is more of an international posturing sort of thing combined with his desire to display a sort of determined resolve on his anti-proliferation stance.
    and possibly a set up for the next president to fall.....
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    Edited for gayness.
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    I didn't misread it I just think you overestimate the resolve of the UN. Remember all the huffing and puffing when Pakistan and India became nuclear powers? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is not an idiot he hid his more radical positions for a long time before he was forced by circumstances to start the "Israel should be wiped off the map" rhetoric. This situation IS a lot like the N. Korea situation and will probably result in a similar outcome (ie. sanctions and international isolation). If worse comes to worst I think you will see something similar to Israel's 1981 airstrike on the Osirak reactor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you are reading too much into it Transigent. even if he wanted to do that he couldn't pull it off with with his current lack of political capital. also a lot of that is more of an international posturing sort of thing combined with his desire to display a sort of determined resolve on his anti-proliferation stance.
    You miss what I am saying. The Iran war will NOT be Iraq II. This time, we will be supported by the other countries. This time, the US will probably be asked by other countries to join, rather then vice versa.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11105378/

    What I am trying to say is that the SotU speech was about foreshadowing what WILL happen, rather then trying to obtain support for what MIGHT happen.

    Ask this question: How can Iran get away with the things it is doing, when Iraq was taken over?

    Iraq had NO WMD's and it was swiftly attacked. Iran DOES have a nuclear program, plus it's leaders are crazy, they are making threats, they have weapons plans, they have admitted to BlkMrkt purchases, OTHER countries have reported them, etc.

    This is not like North Korea. These guys are overly aggressive, we will have to do something about it, and there will be a war by the end of the year, if not by the end of the season.

    I think this will be the turning point where the other nations realize that they should be on the side of the US against "tyranny" as Bush calls it. Because when it all comes down to it, does anybody REALLY want these crazy fucks to have nuclear weapons for thier "jihad"? This thought will hit home when they hear Iran's leaders rant and rave about thier budding nuclear programs.
    Iran's too big to capture. It would make Iraq look like a walk in the park. Not to mention things aren't great over there, but the people really are in control. It's just that the governing bloc has become accustomed to ignoring the needs of the opposing side. Defeating a nation that supports its leader is just downright dangerous. Terrible psychic forces erupt.

    Not only, the Russians aren't about to let us put ANOTHER base in their backyard. And no one can beat -THEM-.

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    Yeah but Russia isn't about to attack the US even if the US went after Iran. China and Russia would also excercise severe drag on any momentum towards an aggressive sounding resolution against Iran. Might even veto sanctions let alone an engagement. At the very least I think they would abstain from a vote on sanctions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Not only, the Russians aren't about to let us put ANOTHER base in their backyard. And no one can beat -THEM-.
    Russia can do nothing about that. What would they do? Use their decrepit nuclear weapons and commit suicide? Apart from that option, Russia can do nothing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    There is a rule written down somewhere that says you can not be a true Arabic nation unless you want to destroy Israel. (Not that they don't have good reason to be angry at Israel.)
    .
    That's odd because Iran is anything but an Arabic nation.
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    It would make sense for the Russians to intervene. They might not be capable of immediate response, but the next year (and it would take several months to put down Iran, because the country is half the size of the U.S. (people don't THINK about these things...!)) Russia could be completely mobilized. They did it in WWII, and they can do it again.

    I think people are just trying not to think about the consequences of a war with a nation that large. They're just trying to say it "would be easy" or something. It won't be. It'll be impossible because Syria/Iran will be the last bastion save China. (which will eventually tend democratic anyhow) Fate won't allow it, and it'll kill anyone who tries.

    In closing, a mobilized Russia would be good for Russia and good for Putin. Big economic war boom, prestige, etc. A restoration of the Russians to polarity with the U.S.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    I am not saying that it makes sense. But Iran is definitely the next on the radar.

    The size of the country is immaterial if your only goal is to kill/capture the leaders of the government.
    They did a good job of that with Saddam, didn't they? I'm telling you, if he invades Iran all hell will break loose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Maybe. But I think the time is coming when the UN is going to start to grow into it's power.
    I disagree. I think the wto, bilateral treaties, the recent oil for food scandal, the perception of the UN as a body is just sort of there to express condemnation of certain actions rather than to take practical action, and fears over sovreignty related issues (especially by the US) all undercut it's power to a great degree. I think of the UN in it's present form sort of like the first US govt. under the articles of confederation too dependent upon the generosity of it's members, full of internal disagreement, and ineffective. I don't think the UN will be effective until it is forced to work on issues in which the vast majority of it's members agree on the the recourse to take such as what is happening in the human traffiking arena. In other words the world (for the moment) lacks a common culture upon which such a body could rest it's power. So for now I think a lot of the important descisions are being made behind the scenes by "major players" and we are not privy to such exchanges. I think Europe in particular doesn't have the stomach for a prolonged occupation and because of Iraq America doesn't either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Ah, but Pakistan and India only have love for each other.
    I can only presume you are joking.... Although their relations have warmed considerably over the years they HAVE fought 4 wars over Kashmir and still have problems with Hindu extremists intensifying conflict. India has to play it very cool or it could easily fall into a confrontational stance once more especially with what has been going on in their elections.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Except that Iran is right in the center of the great big pile of C4 that is the Middle East, and they are fixing to make a trigger. Also, notice that the US now has avenues on both sides of Iran that they would be happy to attack from.
    Um... What about Kim Jong Il being able to blast Seoul (and possibly Tokyo) to smithereens? Again just because you have the opportunity doesn't mean you will take it, there has to be an intervening occurance. Also once again I think tactical strikes would be MUCH more probable especially considering fallout over the NSA surveillance/spy program, domestic concerns, and bush's low numbers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaud
    Not only, the Russians aren't about to let us put ANOTHER base in their backyard. And no one can beat -THEM-.
    This is why it must be a multinational thing this time. I really predict that there will be a group of nations bent on "removing tyranny", and this group will take Iran.
    WTF. You don't include Russia in this do you? You know that Russia has been trying to exert more influence independent of the US right? Also Russia is a sort of loose ally with Iran and would probably use any disagreement over Iran to be a sort of mediator between Iran and the US/Europe to increase it's prestige. Russia still has delusions of grandeur about its influence and is trying to cooperate with other counties (particularly China) to offset the influece of a "unipolar" world dominated by the US.

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    Heh, just pretend to be a homosexual like Jim Morrisson did. Times have changed, so pretending to be a transsexual might work this time around...
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Why do people think Iran wants to nuke Israel? That can't happen.

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    When it comes to other nations joining the Bushian Jihad: No way in...! Clinton might have pulled it off, but Bush is pretty much the boogeyman of the world by now. His talent for alienating potential allies is astounding. He should be proud. The next president, even if going with pretty much the same rhetorics and politics as Bush but with a little more sense of diplomacy, stands a chance. Bush doesn't.

    The main complaint of the world was never the idea of ousting Hussein, but rather the methods gone by. Suffice to say, there is a slightly different view on war outside the US .
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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Yes. I kind of meant that they are too much involved with each other for anyone else to give that much of a damn about them.
    hahahaha yeah but the anti-nuke sentiment that is in vogue would force them too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    I don't think that anyone really gives a damn about Japan. They are pretty much an economic and technological satellite of the Western world anyway.
    Which is PRECISELY why they care about Japan!

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    But I don't know if they would be willing to go to bat for Iran
    Depends on what actions are proposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Why do people think Iran wants to nuke Israel? That can't happen.
    I agree, he is not that stupid. But if he were to smuggle something to Hamas or some such...

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    Chicken Little was so N.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you are reading too much into it Transigent. even if he wanted to do that he couldn't pull it off with with his current lack of political capital. also a lot of that is more of an international posturing sort of thing combined with his desire to display a sort of determined resolve on his anti-proliferation stance.
    You miss what I am saying. The Iran war will NOT be Iraq II. This time, we will be supported by the other countries. This time, the US will probably be asked by other countries to join, rather then vice versa.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11105378/

    What I am trying to say is that the SotU speech was about foreshadowing what WILL happen, rather then trying to obtain support for what MIGHT happen.

    Ask this question: How can Iran get away with the things it is doing, when Iraq was taken over?

    Iraq had NO WMD's and it was swiftly attacked. Iran DOES have a nuclear program, plus it's leaders are crazy, they are making threats, they have weapons plans, they have admitted to BlkMrkt purchases, OTHER countries have reported them, etc.

    This is not like North Korea. These guys are overly aggressive, we will have to do something about it, and there will be a war by the end of the year, if not by the end of the season.

    I think this will be the turning point where the other nations realize that they should be on the side of the US against "tyranny" as Bush calls it. Because when it all comes down to it, does anybody REALLY want these crazy fucks to have nuclear weapons for thier "jihad"? This thought will hit home when they hear Iran's leaders rant and rave about thier budding nuclear programs.

    I have been thinking of the same thing myself, I have beleived for a while now that Iraq was a political move. Meanwhile Iran is a more realistic threat to the world via nuclear weapons and their support for terrorism.

    Now, hopefully this country does not collapse economically or submit to the politcal pressure of not fighting this war. Had Bush not gone to war with Iraq, nobody would get drafted, but unfortuanly reasources have been wasted to were it might have be done.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    Quote Originally Posted by Transigent
    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-the-Lion
    you are reading too much into it Transigent. even if he wanted to do that he couldn't pull it off with with his current lack of political capital. also a lot of that is more of an international posturing sort of thing combined with his desire to display a sort of determined resolve on his anti-proliferation stance.
    You miss what I am saying. The Iran war will NOT be Iraq II. This time, we will be supported by the other countries. This time, the US will probably be asked by other countries to join, rather then vice versa.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11105378/

    What I am trying to say is that the SotU speech was about foreshadowing what WILL happen, rather then trying to obtain support for what MIGHT happen.

    Ask this question: How can Iran get away with the things it is doing, when Iraq was taken over?

    Iraq had NO WMD's and it was swiftly attacked. Iran DOES have a nuclear program, plus it's leaders are crazy, they are making threats, they have weapons plans, they have admitted to BlkMrkt purchases, OTHER countries have reported them, etc.

    This is not like North Korea. These guys are overly aggressive, we will have to do something about it, and there will be a war by the end of the year, if not by the end of the season.

    I think this will be the turning point where the other nations realize that they should be on the side of the US against "tyranny" as Bush calls it. Because when it all comes down to it, does anybody REALLY want these crazy fucks to have nuclear weapons for thier "jihad"? This thought will hit home when they hear Iran's leaders rant and rave about thier budding nuclear programs.

    I have been thinking of the same thing myself, I have beleived for a while now that Iraq was a political move. Meanwhile Iran is a more realistic threat to the world via nuclear weapons and their support for terrorism.

    Now, hopefully this country does not collapse economically or submit to the politcal pressure of not fighting this war. Had Bush not gone to war with Iraq, nobody would get drafted, but unfortuanly reasources have been wasted to were it might have be done.
    I guess you'll be first in line, eh?

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    If I were Bush, I would never had gone to war with Iraq, instead I would have concentrated resources on the real threat to America: Islamic fundamentalist and their supporters. The biggest threat is Iran with possible nuclear weapons and its support of Islamic fundamentalism. A draft is something that I would consider to be part of a worse case scenario.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    If I were Bush, I would never had gone to war with Iraq, instead I would have concentrated resources on the real threat to America: Islamic fundamentalist and their supporters. The biggest threat is Iran with possible nuclear weapons and its support of Islamic fundamentalism. A draft is something that I would consider to be part of a worse case scenario.
    I quite frankly agree. However, the fact remains that with a draft the army would be so large that no one would ignore it. There is also the problem of UBL still being on the loose, the issue of the Iranian conservatives' support of their regime, and the sheer size of the country.

    Plus, Iraq didn't fall as easily as you think it did. If that invasion had gone on another day.... It was no for mercy that the U.S. made their deal with the Iraqi government to give up when it did. I still remember that cafeteria in Egypt with all of those people chanting crazily... the place had taken on a life of its own.

    Furthermore, the U.S. would need to completely mobilize to defeat Iran. It would need to neglect its position as world policeman elsewhere. America's enemies could take advantage. There is also the issue of Syria, which has biological weapons. (and we shouldn't forget that Iran has them, too) The Romans didn't beat the Persians and I don't think the U.S. can, either.

    The most effective thing Iran could do, of course, is cut off its oil. There is also the issue of the Shiite population of Iraq that is allied with them. The Al-Sadr uprising would look like a picnic.

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  35. #35
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    Hmmm... What exactly is it that Iran is doing to the US that makes you guys so eager to go to war in yet another country?

    Please give it some thought. War is not the noble glorious thing our leaders make it out to be. War is blood and screaming and rotting corpses. Perhaps there are times when it is unavoidable but this is not one of them. Iran is a democracy with freely elected leaders and a modern economy- not the third world totalitarian state that the administration makes it out to be. The Iranians fought hard to create the type of society that they wanted and we have no buisness tearing it down.

    Our country needs to learn that diplomacy is not always about "my way or the highway" and that the dream of a global "America" is never going to happen. The more we push that sort of agenda the more we force the rest of the world to take action against us. They don't want to live under our empire any more than we would want to live under there's.

    As for Russia... their nukes haven't gone anywhere. If they were forced into it they still have more than enough firepower to turn the entire planet into an ashtray many times over. Just as we were twitchy about the USSR taking over the world they are still twitchy about us. Forget about our supposed reasons and just look at our actions over the past 15 years and you can see why. I'm sure it hasn't been very reasurring to watch us "liberate" our way through Eastern Europe and the Middle East.

    The possibility of the human race coming to a very nasty ending is very real. The stakes are too high for us to be blind to our own part in it all. Given the unprecedented destructive forces the American military possesses we must always look where we're going. The American perspective represents only a small portion of the total human experience. If we can't understand and respect the perspectives of the rest of the human race we don't deserve to hold any position of authority. More ito the point the other 6 1/2 billion people on the planet aren't going to let us.

  36. #36
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    BTW I really don't expect that this kind of thinking (what I just wrote) will have any effect on things. We're firmly locked into the reality funnel. Even if the anti-war movement somehow caught hold in the US whoever controls the funnel merely has to produce another 9/11 type event to propell us back onto the course of self-destruction.

    The only way out of this "war of terror" we're engaged in is through a super-human act of freewill to "give up" the fight...

    Just consider the economics of the struggle to see why this is so. For us to continue fighting costs billions of dollars a month while for them the cost is comparitively nothing. Add to this the fact that the more intensly we fight this war the ranks of the enemy increases proportionally. ie... To target a handfull of Al-Quada we kill dozens of civilians collaterally which inevetably causes a fresh new surge into the ranks of our enemies. All the while our international standing steadily declines which each new incident.

    What we need to realise is that the longer we fight the more we flush our economy down the toilet. American pride being what it is we'll probably end up passing the 3rd world mark and be living in caves before we realise what's happened. Of course we'll have become the most loathed nation on Earth by then so we'll be lucky if they don't piss on the rice they end up having to send us.

    Now I don't hate America, I don't want this to be the outcome... it's just that there really isn't any other way for this whole thing to end. We've been expertly "funneled" into two and only two possible outcomes. We either swallow our pride and give up the global domination game or we take a one way ride into the neolithic era...

    Anyway's I just don't like to see people jump so blindly into the trap like you guys were. If your going to be all testoserone and "God Bless America" at least be aware of where we're headed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jimbean
    The biggest threat is Iran with possible nuclear weapons and its support of Islamic fundamentalism. A draft is something that I would consider to be part of a worse case scenario.
    there is a way of fighting that does not involve troops...

    also I think disdain for the man is clouding our ability to judge what the actual occurance of events will be

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