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Thread: Example of an INTp & INFj conversation (benefit relations)

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    Default Example of an INTp & INFj conversation (benefit relations)

    I just had a convo with an ILI. I think it illustrates obvious Ni leading and Se DS on his part, and my blatant aversion to both.

    Friday night the ILI calls me and wants to hang out. I say I don't feel like going out. He says, "you never feel like going out." I'm like "whatever. If it makes you happy, want to see a movie tomorrow?"

    Saturday morning he calls at 9 AM! "Hi. I'm making plans for our movie day." We decide on a movie (8 PM). He has to figure out what we're doing beforehand- getting coffee. Then he spends approximately 15 mins. freely brain farting on how he has to occupy himself during the time before the movie, while I sit there "okaying" him and wondering why I need to listen to this?

    He calls me about every 2 hours throughout the day to make sure I'm still on for the movie.

    5 PM. He calls. I say "You're going to hate me, but I haven't slept in 2 nights. I am sooo tired. Can't we go see a movie tomorrow?"
    ILI: But I have "plans" for tomorrow.
    Me: Okay okay. see you at 7.

    6 PM. He calls again! I had just spoken to my friend who recommended that we see another movie, which he loved and which the ILI had actually wanted to see initially.
    Me: hey why don't we go see this movie instead? it's better and it's closer to both of us
    ILI: what time is it playing?
    Me: 10:30
    ILI: <starts making pained noises>
    Me: What? Oh god. You think I'm flaking on you! No. I am totally not. I actually prefer to see this movie.
    ILI: I just don't think you're going to show up for A movie
    <we talk for 15 minutes and I finally convince him this is not a "stalling" mechanism>
    Me: Okay, so see you at 10. <gets ready to hang up phone>
    ILI: whoa whoa. hang on. what are we going to do before the movie?
    Me: huh?
    ILI: the last time we were getting coffee. I don't just want to go to a movie with someone.
    Me: oh I guess everything in that area will be closed by then
    ILI: well, see, that's a problem..
    <we sort of resolve this one. THEN...>
    ILI: wait. what am i supposed to do to occupy myself during the next few hours?
    Me: huh?
    ILI: well I was planning to be in a movie now, so I didn't plan anything for these next few hours..
    Me: What? Why do you need a plan for everything? Can't you just like do something?
    ILI: <pauses in SHOCK> That's not the problem. The problem is that you never want to make plans.
    Me: <laughs at how he considers this to be such an obvious "flaw." Like, how could I NOT value that in him?>
    <30 minutes later I worked out a plan that would make him see me for 2 hours BEFORE the movie. LUCKY ME. He seems happy.>
    Me: Okay now. Can I go? Please?
    ILI: Sure. <hangs up phone>
    EII; E6(w5)

    i am flakey

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    that sounds more like a convo with an INTj. Maybe an ENTp. He seems like an infantile sexual type, wanting you to take care of him. The conversation is wanting Ni to be written out. ILI Ni is dynamic, and usually that means going with the flow of things and constantly directing them toward a goal / adapting your plans in light of circumstances. But not officially laying out a plan and sticking to it. If I go on a date and they ask me where should we go, ILI will generally say 'i duno, anywhere as long as it's convenient'. Unless there is a goal which can't be redirected and must be achieved regardless of any other circumstances. So maybe if he's really obsessed with you. But even then the victim sexual style will wait for you to make the moves / suggestions, then prefer to adapt to that. Either way it's generally a waste of time to date someone who isn't your dual unless you're just horny
    I could be wrong. Do you know for a fact he is ILI? What makes you think this?
    Last edited by crazedrat; 12-14-2008 at 12:46 AM.
    INTp

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    The relationship sounds uneven. Is this the guy from the video?

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    The conversation is only uneven in that he's an average frustrated chump and she's not interested in him. In terms of syntax, it isn't uneven. They both talk in equal turns, and seem to be equally frustrated with one another.
    Wondering now if he's ISTj. This seems more like superego relations, and Ni hidden agenda would work well to describe this too.
    A description of him would be useful in understanding this.
    In benefactor/beneficiary relations usually the beneficiary really wants to please the benefactor, and doesn't know how. The benefactor will seem to be in the more stable position. You can go read about this. In my interactions with EIIs, it's like they turn on this circus entertainment mode and I just sit there going 'yeah.... ahh'. I will remain silent while they talk and talk, and demonstrate their ideas to me on how the world works. Talking about everyday happenings which are going on around us and how that shows what a person really thinks; or talking about the implication these happenings have for the world as a whole. They have all kinds of unique ideas which have to do with everyday reality. And I just sit there and kind of silently monitor whether they make sense, and when they go off track or I disagree, I say ...'no, blah blah blah'... kind of like what I'm doing right now. That is benefactor relations. I remember one time I told this EII he should of been a court jester in olden times, and he got kinda pissed
    Last edited by crazedrat; 12-14-2008 at 01:13 AM.
    INTp

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    Uneven syntax isn't a problem if both people like it that way. Uneven desires for the relationship are a problem though.

    I dunno, I used to be friends with guys, but I've found that it doesn't work. There's always a breaking point, and then one way or another it doesn't end well.

    I try to keep a certain distance from guys I talk to online for this reason as well. I avoid phone/voice conversations and don't use a webcam in one on one conversations (even though I often do with female online friends).

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    The conversation is only uneven in that he's an average frustrated chump and she's not interested in him.
    that's what I thought also.

    he doesn't sound necessarily ILI but I suppose it's possible. good grief, I would be HIGHLY annoyed with him. what, do I look like your social director? your babysitter? you can't find something to do? sheesh.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I'd like to say I wouldn't tolerate that kind of clinginess, but honestly it would depend on the situation.

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    uneven syntax indicates an uneven thought process. A one sided conversation is a trademark of benefactor/beneficiary relations, with the beneficiary doing all the stunts. Go learn about it.
    INTp

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    Some people just naturally like to talk more and others like to listen more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I dunno, I used to be friends with guys, but I've found that it doesn't work. There's always a breaking point, and then one way or another it doesn't end well.
    you said a mouthful there. *sigh* I think I may agree with you. but it's really sad that it has to be that way. makes me depressed cause I just feel like we're all people with a lot to offer, why can't we be friends? Plus I value the male point of view. it's just... they're so... susceptible to... feminine whatevers.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Some people just naturally like to talk more and others like to listen more.
    I agree. Doesn't necessarily mean it's an asymmetrical relation.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    You're right. In assymetrical relations, though, it occurs that one person really can't find a way to give input into the relationship. And that isn't happening here. We see both giving equal input into the relationship, regardless of it being negative input.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    you said a mouthful there. *sigh* I think I may agree with you. but it's really sad that it has to be that way. makes me depressed cause I just feel like we're all people with a lot to offer, why can't we be friends? Plus I value the male point of view. it's just... they're so... susceptible to... feminine whatevers.
    I try to see it as a good thing... a biological process that ensures the survival of the species. There are a number of guys that I get along with really well and enjoy talking to, and that's fine. I just avoid spending too much time with or giving too much attention to them. It tends to keep the level of tension far enough away from that breaking point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    What type is he Joy?
    I couldn't say, based solely on that. If he's the guy from the video though, he's IP. He looks a little bit like my ILI brother, but not enough for me to say I think he's ILI.

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    So you're basing your responses on nothing as usual. Okay then
    INTp

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    I'm basing my "I don't know" response on the fact that I don't know, if that's okay with you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I'm basing my "I don't know" response on the fact that I don't know, if that's okay with you.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I don't see a problem with having guy friends personally. It doesn't have to be weird or turn out badly. Once you or they are married though, it's different. You can still be friends, but you switch to being a friend of the couple, not the individual.
    if you're both married and you see one another in a context where the spouses aren't available? what if you try to include the spouse and she doesn't want to be included? well anyway... I guess it should be obvious if there's attraction. And in that case maybe more distance is required.

    *&^%$#@
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I don't see a problem with having guy friends personally. It doesn't have to be weird or turn out badly.
    It's just a matter of avoiding that breaking point, I think. And it's difficult for me to tell when it's getting to a point of no return or whatever, so I just try to keep more than enough distance. I could see an ESI not having this problem though.

    Once you or they are married though, it's different. You can still be friends, but you switch to being a friend of the couple, not the individual.
    Yeah, that would actually be a lot easier, I think. Peter tends not to be interested in hanging out with new people though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    if you're both married and you see one another in a context where the spouses aren't available? what if you try to include the spouse and she doesn't want to be included? well anyway... I guess it should be obvious if there's attraction. And in that case maybe more distance is required.

    *&^%$#@
    My experience has been that even if there isn't an initial attraction, tension will still build in at least one direction over time if you allow it. Like I alluded to in my previous post though, maybe I shouldn't assume that such is the case with everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    It's just a matter of avoiding that breaking point, I think. And it's difficult for me to tell when it's getting to a point of no return or whatever, so I just try to keep more than enough distance.
    as in: "I can't be friends with you. I can't live like this anymore" sort of thing? uh, yeah.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    According to pickup artists if you don't approach a girl within 3 seconds of first making eye contact with her, it's difficult to form a romantic relationship. Also, if you don't touch her in some seemingly innocent way during your first interaction, it's difficult.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    as in: "I can't be friends with you. I can't live like this anymore" sort of thing? uh, yeah.
    There are a few different common outcomes.

    First of all, too much tension builds and one or both people start to get uncomfortable, not sure they are behaving appropriately.

    Secondly, there's the all too common scenario where one starts flirting with the other, then the other gets uncomfortable and shies away. Or the other may ignore the flirting, and then the one starts feeling resentful and being distant or unkind or just weird.

    And then of course there's the situation one person suddenly comes clean about his/her feelings, which can result in either them not talking anymore or in things being weird after that.

    Those are the most common ones I've encountered at least. The "point of no return" that I spoke of is the point where mild attraction becomes infatuation, I think.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    According to pickup artists if you don't approach a girl within 3 seconds of first making eye contact with her, it's difficult to form a romantic relationship. Also, if you don't touch her in some seemingly innocent way during your first interaction, it's difficult.
    So according to pickup artists, it helps to have strong Se? Or at least to fake it?

    In any case, we're talking about when things don't turn into something more than friendship.

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    Creepy-Diana

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Sigh, yeah. I've had that happen where they don't want to be included and make him stop talking to you. It sucks because it's not like you were going to try to seduce him or something. But, I guess if she was worried about him being attracted to me, then it's probably best to keep my distance anyway. I don't want to cause any friction in anyone's marriage.
    exactly.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I dunno, I used to be friends with guys, but I've found that it doesn't work. There's always a breaking point, and then one way or another it doesn't end well.
    My two closest friends here in town are male and it's not a problem. I hang out with them all the time and we are nothing but friends and it's not awkward. They are INTp and ENTj, FWIW.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    My two closest friends here in town are male and it's not a problem. I hang out with them all the time and we are nothing but friends and it's not awkward. They are INTp and ENTj, FWIW.
    I had a problem with an INTp years ago.

    So right now my main concern right now is keeping an SLE at a far enough distance where we can be friends but where nothing weird develops (like it did with the SEI). Cause he's really cool and I've never known an SLE before. he's married to an IEI and I'm friends with her too. And he knows my husband and they're friends too.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    So according to pickup artists, it helps to have strong Se? Or at least to fake it?

    In any case, we're talking about when things don't turn into something more than friendship.
    Do not reply to me with this useless crap again.
    INTp

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    The relationship sounds uneven. Is this the guy from the video?
    No, he's not. The guy in the video was the computer lab tech guy who I petitioned for help. I was thinking he was ILI, as well. Good catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    The conversation is only uneven in that he's an average frustrated chump and she's not interested in him.
    I doubt it's uneven in this way. He's actually really good looking and smart. I doubt he even finds me attractive.
    He's definitely ILI. He does this depressing, eyes glistening lament about his future thing that I've only ever see Ni leading types do. I can't even really begin to explain this characteristic. It's just very obvious when you see it.
    He openly expresses frustration at people who attempt to manipulate his emotions or needing to display some sort of group emotion.
    Trust me. He's ILI. Everything fits.

    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    that's what I thought also.

    he doesn't sound necessarily ILI but I suppose it's possible. good grief, I would be HIGHLY annoyed with him. what, do I look like your social director? your babysitter? you can't find something to do? sheesh.
    lol. my thoughts exactly! I think i may have even said to him "i'm not your babysitter!"
    usually my relationships with ILIs are very good. I have one very good ILI friend who doesn't expect much from me but my spaciness and inconsistent meetings with him. But a few others, particularly this one, seem to NEED me to be their dual. I really feel like he wants me to take charge of everything and socially connect him, but that's so not me!

    Oh so the evening ended with me paying for our movie tickets. He also did one of those token ILI things where he's pointing something out about your physical appearance and unintentionally insulting you. I also fell on my ass as we were running to catch the last train. <shrug>

    Ummm. Go see "Slumdog Millionare." REALLY GOOD.
    EII; E6(w5)

    i am flakey

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    I doubt it's uneven in this way. He's actually really good looking and smart. I doubt he even finds me attractive.
    Perhaps it just sounds this way based on your description of the conversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    Do not reply to me with this useless crap again.
    I'll post whatever I want to post, thank you.

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    This is very true. If a guy WAITS more than one single date to make a move (you don't even have to kiss, you can hold hands) it gets incrementally harder to attract the woman because it makes her think too much whether you like her or don't. But when you make your intentions known from the start she will be more receptive. People tend to like people when they like them back.

    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    According to pickup artists if you don't approach a girl within 3 seconds of first making eye contact with her, it's difficult to form a romantic relationship. Also, if you don't touch her in some seemingly innocent way during your first interaction, it's difficult.

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    From what JOY is stating, seems like ENTJs want someone stronger to order them around to be aggressive towards them.

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    Where are you getting that from?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    *cackles*

    Oh my goodness. This is exactly the kind of experience I've had with ILIs. I read this conversation and was blown away at how accurate a description it is of how I tend to interact with ILIs as well. My mom is the worst, prompt to the point of perpetual earliness. If something goes off of her proposed schedule or order of things it's a way bigger deal to her than it is to most. Not necessarily because she can't adapt, rather it's no longer what she had projected and therefore somehow "wrong". My ESTp step-dad is great for her in that sense, because he not only adapts well but sets out exactly how ridiculous she's being by fussing over something so inane.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    5 PM. He calls. I say "You're going to hate me, but I haven't slept in 2 nights. I am sooo tired. Can't we go see a movie tomorrow?"
    ILI: But I have "plans" for tomorrow.
    Me: Okay okay. see you at 7.

    6 PM. He calls again! I had just spoken to my friend who recommended that we see another movie, which he loved and which the ILI had actually wanted to see initially.
    Me: hey why don't we go see this movie instead? it's better and it's closer to both of us
    ILI: what time is it playing?
    Me: 10:30
    ILI: <starts making pained noises>
    Me: What? Oh god. You think I'm flaking on you! No. I am totally not. I actually prefer to see this movie.
    ILI: I just don't think you're going to show up for A movie
    <we talk for 15 minutes and I finally convince him this is not a "stalling" mechanism>
    Me: Okay, so see you at 10. <gets ready to hang up phone>
    ILI: whoa whoa. hang on. what are we going to do before the movie?
    Me: huh?
    ILI: the last time we were getting coffee. I don't just want to go to a movie with someone.
    Me: oh I guess everything in that area will be closed by then
    ILI: well, see, that's a problem..
    <we sort of resolve this one. THEN...>
    ILI: wait. what am i supposed to do to occupy myself during the next few hours?
    Me: huh?
    ILI: well I was planning to be in a movie now, so I didn't plan anything for these next few hours..
    Me: What? Why do you need a plan for everything? Can't you just like do something?
    ILI: <pauses in SHOCK> That's not the problem. The problem is that you never want to make plans.
    Me: <laughs at how he considers this to be such an obvious "flaw." Like, how could I NOT value that in him?>
    <30 minutes later I worked out a plan that would make him see me for 2 hours BEFORE the movie. LUCKY ME. He seems happy.>
    Me: Okay now. Can I go? Please?
    ILI: Sure. <hangs up phone>
    This kind of phone exchange would surely drive me iNsAnE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by incognito View Post
    This is not true. I don't believe your mother is like this. :wink: Actually, what's more frustrating is the fact that others can't see what's ahead, where I'm right but I have to wait for others to 'see' what I have predicted is true. Until such time, I'm labeled as 'wrong'. This happens more than you wish to admit, right? A perfect example is developing at the moment. I've forewarned but my prediction was dismissed. So, I'll sit back and wait for the event to unfold and witness the squirming and complaining.
    Pffft, I think this is a case where I'M right and YOU'RE wrong. With regards to the promptness etc, that is.

    And see, I think you think that people think you're wrong. Where people actually don't think that you're wrong, rather they think that you think that they haven't taken to account what you're saying but really they've already thought about that. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're annoying "people" with stating what they already know and making it a stance rather than moving on to a mutual understanding. At which point they become annoyed and ignore you on principle

    Everyone, everyone, look! Contrasting mother-daughter! Someone should do a study, lol.
    ILE
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    Very busy with work. Only kind of around.

  39. #39
    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Pffft, I think this is a case where I'M right and YOU'RE wrong. With regards to the promptness etc, that is.

    And see, I think you think that people think you're wrong. Where people actually don't think that you're wrong, rather they think that you think that they haven't taken to account what you're saying but really they've already thought about that. It's not that you're wrong, it's that you're annoying "people" with stating what they already know and making it a stance rather than moving on to a mutual understanding. At which point they become annoyed and ignore you on principle

    Everyone, everyone, look! Contrasting mother-daughter! Someone should do a study, lol.
    i think you think that people think don't think they think that you think what you're saying they've already thought you're wrong you're annoying they know they ignore you on principle

  40. #40
    <something> Wynch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    i think you think that people think don't think they think that you think what you're saying they've already thought you're wrong you're annoying they know they ignore you on principle
    Why must you hurt me so?
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