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Thread: Prisons don't work to protect us, and they spoil criminals

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    Default Prisons don't work to protect us, and they spoil criminals.

    I'm surprised at the good systems they have in prisons of improving oneself. It seems to have access to these interesting facilities, (where you can truly find yourself in a less judgmental atmosphere) that should be integrated in regular society but somehow they're not. They have a bohemian look to them, and really - guards and people are going to protect you if you're a nice enough guy.

    Listen guys, I'll try not to bring too much of my leftist agenda, but there's a reason why prisons are overfilled with minorities. (Tons of blacks and gays and latinos etc.)

    They are just overcrowded because people too many people in california especially would RATHER be in prison. You can get a job working that is truly institutionalized and protected so you always feel like you're free. In fact, prisons offer ideal love because you can really find out some interesting things about yourself and a subject, because of time and how you're not judged to 'succeed' so much. You can develop an ideal relationship much easier, because of how well they tolerate homosexuality. (There's even 'introductory classes' telling people to just get over their homophobia, it's gonna happen - much like a college course in the real world.) There's no true punishment, only if you're a really complete asshole.

    Prison system it just doesn't work. They're treated like kings. Two wrongs never make a right. I'm all for punishing people that deserve it, but sending them to PRISON is the WORST ABSOLUTE WAY to do it! There's counseling/grief sessions and if you show enough guilt and empathy you can even try to reconnect with the families of the victims you've hurt. It's complete BS! A lot of the wardens are kinda creepy pornaholics themselves that have a secret penchant for bad boys. And a lot of these guys are locked up for stuff they don't even need to be locked up for, and are really sweethearts. I'm serious. I know women who try to date guys in prisons can be pathetic...but oh god you can't really blame them can you?

    You don't lock a man up like he's an animal, you always make him rehabilitate and pay a balance of the destruction he caused to others. You *make* that fucker get a real job in the real world, and support himself- and understand the law better. And if not, if there's no hope in his eyes- which is easy to tell just by looking at him, then you should execute him. It should be that simple. Prison world has developed into its own kind of society, one that is scarily beating the real one we have now.

    These people do not come out of the prison system better when they went into it usually, because prison life is so much easier and appealing to anything they've seen. They can act out brutally, all their graphic porn star fantasies- and be kept safe for it!!! What the fucking hell man, that is a man's dream! I wish people would understand this. In fact these places actually ENCOURAGE crimes.

    Somebody does an err to society, that everybody agrees is wrong- well we just need better systems in place to deal with that, definitely. Who couldn't agree to that?

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    Sure, there's different wards and sections- but you can understand how the game is played all too easily and manipulate the staff there, which is bogus. And there is a LOT of corrupt staff, much more corrupt then a lot of the prisoners there.

    You would be surprised at all the seemingly 'normal' people that commit crimes just to take a break in prison for awhile because people fall so easily for mind games and social manipulation techniques.

    Shiiiiiiiit it should ideally be nothign to be proud of but god fucking damnit, it is rarely the solution to socetial ills!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I'm surprised at the good systems they have in prisons of improving oneself. It seems to have access to these interesting facilities, (where you can truly find yourself in a less judgmental atmosphere) that should be integrated in regular society but somehow they're not.
    When the student is ready, the teacher will appear. (Meaning you don't need some special external facilities or systems to find spiritual awareness and inner peace.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    Shocking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Shocking.
    that's funny. i like him.

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    Other than the outdated food and the tents, I didn't see much that bothered me (granted, I only skimmed it).

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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    that's funny. i like him.
    Yeah, I figured you would. I have a problem with people who take pleasure in mistreating others. Inmates should not be fair game for sadistic individuals and apparently it's not deterring crime.

    Arpaio believes that inmates should be treated as harshly as legally possible to emphasize the punishment aspect of their incarceration.

    Arpaio began to serve inmates surplus food including outdated and oxidized green bologna[13] and limited meals to twice daily.

    Smoking and weightlifting equipment were also banned. Entertainment was limited to G-rated movies;

    Tent City: It has become notable particularly because of Phoenix's extreme temperatures. Daytime temperatures inside the tents have been reported as high as 150 degrees in the top bunks.

    During the summer of 2003, when outside temperatures exceeded 110 °F (43 °C), which is higher than average, Arpaio said to complaining inmates, "It's 120 degrees in Iraq and the soldiers are living in tents and they didn't commit any crimes, so shut your mouths."

    In 2005, nearly 700 maximum-security prisoners were marched the four blocks from Towers Jail to the newly opened Lower Buckeye Jail, wearing only their underwear and flip-flops to prevent the concealment of weapons. Prisoners were strip-searched when they left Towers Jail and again when they reached their destination.[29]

    Starting in July 2000, the Maricopa County Sheriff's website hosted Jail Cam, a 24-hour Internet webcast of images from cameras in the Madison Street Jail, a facility which processed and housed only pretrial detainees.

    Arpaio has instructed his sheriff's deputies and members of his civilian posse to arrest illegal immigrants. Arpaio told the Washington Times, "My message is clear: If you come here and I catch you, you're going straight to jail. [...] I'm not going to turn these people over to federal authorities so they can have a free ride back to Mexico. I'll give them a free ride to my jail."

    The family members of inmates who have died in jail custody have filed lawsuits against the sheriff’s office. The lawsuits have cost Maricopa County more than $43 million in settlement claims during Arpaio's tenure.

    From 2004 through November 2007, Arpaio was the target of 2,150 lawsuits in U.S. District Court and hundreds more in Maricopa County courts[45]; 50 times as many prison-conditions lawsuits as the New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, and Houston jail systems combined.

    In her book on prison policy The Use of Force by Detention Officers, Arizona State University criminal justice professor Marie L. Griffin reported on a 1998 study commissioned by Arpaio to examine recidivism rates based on conditions of confinement. Comparing recidivism rates under Arpaio to those under his predecessor, the study found "there was no significant difference in recidivism observed between those offenders released in 1989-1990 and those released in 1994-1995."

    Crenshaw's family filed a lawsuit against Arpaio and his office, which resulted in an award of $2 million dollars.[56] As in the Scott Norberg case, it was alleged that Arpaio's office destroyed evidence in the case. In the Crenshaw case, the attorney who represented the case before a jury alleged digital video evidence was destroyed.
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    How is that sadistic? It's just not caring about the comfort or enjoyment of the prisoners. (Eating spoiled food and hanging out in 150 degree tents is dangerous though.)

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    As far as the lawsuits, I would be more interested in knowing how it compares to average for that size and type of prison, and also how it compares to previous years (in relation to other prisons).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    How is that sadistic? It's just not caring about the comfort or enjoyment of the prisoners. (Eating spoiled food and hanging out in 150 degree tents is dangerous though.)
    I don't see how a treatment like that is justified and how he can get away with it. And perhaps he is not sadistic (I really don't want to argue about words again - that usually goes on for 10 pages ), but his treatment of inmates endangers them and does not consider their human dignity, which is probably where I disagree with others because I don't think committing a crime turns a person into a subhuman creature that can be mistreated. No surprise there, eh?
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    PS: Not to say it's all bad. He does do some good, but much of this I find disturbing.


    http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2008-...accreditation/
    Last edited by Kim; 12-14-2008 at 04:59 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbmmama View Post
    Jesus this guy is nuts.

    I guess I'll refrain from commiting anything whenever I'm in Arizona.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I don't see how a treatment like that is justified and how he can get away with it.
    He gets away with it because of his position and reputation (and other technicalities, probably). And why is a justification necessary?

    And perhaps he is not sadistic (I really don't want to argue about words again - that usually goes on for 10 pages ), but his treatment of inmates endangers them and does not consider their human dignity, which is probably where I disagree with others because I don't think committing a crime turns a person into a subhuman creature that can be mistreated. No surprise there, eh?
    You don't have to be a "subhuman creature" to deserve a little punishment. They consigned themselves to it when they committed their crimes (which I assume you think were wrong?). Putting them through some pain—or just not caring about whether they're in pain or not—can be a lot better than making sure their needs are met and all that bullshit a lot of prisons do. Why do they deserve good treatment? Fuck dignity; they relinquished that when they committed the crimes.

    I'm not saying that criminals somehow deserve torture or whatever. I just don't think that it matters whether we care about their conditions or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    He gets away with it because of his position and reputation (and other technicalities, probably). And why is a justification necessary?



    You don't have to be a "subhuman creature" to deserve a little punishment. They consigned themselves to it when they committed their crimes (which I assume you think were wrong?). Putting them through some pain—or just not caring about whether they're in pain or not—can be a lot better than making sure their needs are met and all that bullshit a lot of prisons do. Why do they deserve good treatment? Fuck dignity; they relinquished that when they committed the crimes.

    I'm not saying that criminals somehow deserve torture or whatever. I just don't think that it matters whether we care about their conditions or not.
    exactly.

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    I'm not saying that criminals somehow deserve torture or whatever. I just don't think that it matters whether we care about their conditions or not.
    I disagree and I think we can leave it at that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I disagree and I think we can leave it at that.
    Why do we have to"leave it at that"? I'm interested in hearing your reasoning (even if it's just emotional) for why we should care about their treatment. No one is going to bite you, Kim.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZTCrawcrustle View Post
    Jesus this guy is nuts.

    I guess I'll refrain from commiting anything whenever I'm in Arizona.
    Careful, he might hide those drugs in your car just to put those pink handcuffs on you and watch you run rounds around the tent in pink underwear in 105 degrees before the chain gang sets out for some good old labor. Lovely, isn't it?

    It's totally ludicrous.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Careful, he might hide those drugs in your car just to put those pink handcuffs on you and watch you run rounds around the tent in pink underwear in 105 degrees before the chain gang sets out for some good old labor. Lovely, isn't it?

    It's totally ludicrous.
    lmao...I missed that part
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Why do we have to"leave it at that"? I'm interested in hearing your reasoning (even if it's just emotional) for why we should care about their treatment. No one is going to bite you, Kim.
    It just feels like we just have different values and you can't really argue with those. I am a bleeding heart tree-hugger who believes that people should be treated with dignity and respect even when they have committed a crime. We should care about their treatment because they have human rights and are entitled to adequate shelter, food, and sanitary conditions. I also believe that an inmate who is in good mental and physical health is more likely to participate in education and work programs.

    I remember you saying that you were busted for speeding, right? A good friend of mine got arrested because he hadn't paid an outstanding fee for a DUI in time (he was arrested 3 weeks after the deadline - his lawyer had told him that he would be ok, well...) and was in jail for almost a week (almost lost his job over this). There was no privacy (no cells, just random cots in one big open room, which I saw from behind the glass, lol) and the toilets had no doors. He didn't get enough to eat, which makes him feel like crap because of low blood sugar. He didn't have his medication (anti-depressants) and they didn't care. The reason he got out after a week is because I made phone calls and literally harassed the people in charge. He told me that if he had to live under conditions like that for longer than he had to, he would totally lose it. He got horribly depressed after only two days and he was a mess when I picked him up. And apart from the fact that nobody deserves this, he REALLY didn't.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    It just feels like we just have different values and you can't really argue with those.
    Maybe.

    I am a bleeding heart tree-hugger who believes that people should be treated with dignity and respect even when they have committed a crime.
    A serial rapist deserves respect?

    We should care about their treatment because they have human rights and are entitled to adequate shelter, food, and sanitary conditions.
    "Human rights" seems like an arbitrary thing to me, but ok. Even if they do exist, don't you think a person renounces them when they perform a criminal act—or at the least, gets them prioritized much lower, relative to other civil people?

    I also believe that an inmate who is in good mental and physical health is more likely to participate in education and work programs.
    Agreed.

    I remember you saying that you were busted for speeding, right? A good friend of mine got arrested because he hadn't paid an outstanding fee for a DUI in time (he was arrested 3 weeks after the deadline - his lawyer had told him that he would be ok, well...) and was in jail for almost a week (almost lost his job over this). There was no privacy (no cells, just random cots in one big open room, which I saw from behind the glass, lol) and the toilets had no doors. He didn't get enough to eat, which makes him feel like crap because of low blood sugar. He didn't have his medication (anti-depressants) and they didn't care. The reason he got out after a week is because I made phone calls and literally harassed the people in charge. He told me that if he had to live under conditions like that for longer than he had to, he would totally lose it. He got horribly depressed after only two days and he was a mess when I picked him up. And apart from the fact that nobody deserves this, he REALLY didn't.
    I agree, that sucks. But it's one person. And it was his fault he was in there anyway.

    I'm not pushing for an ideology clash. I'm genuinely interested in hearing other peoples' moral stances, since I'm usually so indifferent on such matters (despite sporadic beta absolutism). It's like I can never find a good solution.
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    Many of them shouldn't be in prison in the first place. There are many minor crimes which exist only to fund the police departments and strengthen the power of the state over the people. It's a way of government expanding itself. Most of the expenses of boarding a prison involve staff and management of the facility. Food, water, and shelter is a minor expense when you compare it with all the guards and general upkeep. There is also alot of excess in the system. It used to be that we put these people to work in labor camps. How can it be that we afforded prisons 100 years ago, but can't fund them now? But some would say this is thinking backwards. Even then, if anything, they could automate the system in many ways. There are alot of ways to reduce costs which haven't been implemented due to the systems inability to coordinate itself. For example most medical facilities could half the cost of their functioning by incorporating computers into the process of visiting doctors, as well as using alternative, non-FDA approved treatments (which gets into the FDA and the drug companies.. that's even another issue).

    With the exception of the criminally insane, a criminal is the end result of social dynamics. A good examle of this is the dude who shoots a cop who pulls him over when his trunk is full of weed and cocaine. Now imagine being in his shoes, seeing your life flash before your eyes. That it's basically over. And what's the purpose of him potentially going to jail for possessing drugs? Drugs are illegal so that we can fund our police departments, and government has expanded its power over the people. And this cop is 'just doing his duty'. But what put the cop and the shooter in conflict in the first place, was the law.
    Saying 'just don't break the law' is easy for someone who's never been pressed down by society. Basically, people are put in situations where it is favorable for them to break the law. And this creates a cycle which promotes them into breaking the law more and more drastically.

    So people breaking the law can be understood rationally. Saying 'just don't break the law' is easy for someone who's never been pressed down by society. Who's never been put in that situation that says 'do I sell some weed or do I go hungry?'. 'I am lonely as hell. Do I go to a prostitute? Or do I simply obey the law and stay lonely?'. 'I am addicted to drugs because I am an empty shell. I have to sell them to keep up my habit.'. Etc.

    A philosophy of evolution; 'the strong survive, out with the weak'; also doesn't apply here, because society is not a natural order; and this is essentially about how people adapt to society, the choices they make, and how society reacts to these choices (in order to protect itself. Who's the real criminal?).
    Last edited by crazedrat; 12-14-2008 at 06:19 AM.
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    I don't believe in making a difference in treating people because there would never be agreement. Some people think it's ok to execute a 15-year-old killer, other believe it's ok to execute a rapist, but don't think an offender in a domestic violence charge should be executed. These are just random examples.

    This is going to sound like delta sap to you, so brace yourself:
    I don't think that a person's worst action defines his/her worth, so it does not define whether or not he can be treated with respect. I believe in locking people up because it keeps society safe and of course there need to be repercussions for crime. But I don't feel the need for further punishment beyond locking people up and controlling their everyday life. Perhaps it's because to me that sounds like the ultimate nightmare.

    The problem I see is that if you are looking to punish further based on offense, you will always punish a lot of people who don't deserve it. I would rather let some go unpunished (and I am talking about people IN prison, so this is not about safety) than punishing innocent people. I think that would be the bigger crime. But even apart from that, I think even violent offenders deserve humane treatment. They should be locked up, but I don't see anything wrong with providing a basis for their spiritual/educational/whatever betterment. Nobody wants to be in jail, even if people are not abused.

    Disclaimer: If someone hurt one of my loved ones, I would feel differently of course, but that is why loved ones don't decide over someone's punishment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    Saying 'just don't break the law' is easy for someone who's never been pressed down by society.
    I agree with this, too. It's does not justify crime, but fair conditions in prisons benefit more people than inhumane ones, including (mentally healthy) prison staff.
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    There is a certain line you draw between psychopathic behavior and socially oppressed behavior. The bulk of criminals are not psychopaths. The problems we have with housing prisoners would be no problems at all if we only held the psychopaths. And since they're still, in many ways, a result of the dysfunctional society which created them, I still could never say we must punish them with equal reward to what they dished out; partially because society already has been punishing them their entire lives, so the distinction seems arbitrary; also because it's irrelevant, and it lowers you to the same level of the criminal, but only with (supposedly) more moral justification for your actions? As I've already explained, this sort of justification is arbitrary. If you could read a book of the life of a criminally insane prisoner, you would see your justification
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    There is a certain line you draw between psychopathic behavior and socially oppressed behavior. The bulk of criminals are not psychopaths.
    Yeah. And the bulk of psychopaths aren't criminals either (only about 20% are). And psychopath = sociopath ftr.
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    K, then let's switch words to 'criminally insane'. The bulk of criminals are not criminally insane, they're socially repressed. If you picked them up out of their circumstances and put them on a beach with cash and women to keep them company, they'd cease to be criminals. This is the average criminal. The real enemy is society. It is unnatural by definition, so it is imperfect by definition. Notice there is yet to be a philosopher who could come up with a social structure for a proper civilized utopia other then some extended form of anarchy.
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    The problem with treating imprisoned people very badly is that many people that are there don't exactly deserve it - or, more broadly, a very negative treatment could result in an even worse social outcome (I'm thinking about those imprisoned for small drug crimes, or bankruptcy, etc.). The result is that a tool which has been set in place to ameliorate general social welfare may lead to worse social welfare.

    Perhaps it would be more OK if there were separated treatments for different "levels" of criminality, but I doubt it is so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I wasn't commenting on the bulk of criminals. I really don't care. I was commenting on Kim's statement about determination of punishment and not letting a person's loved ones decide on punishment. I don't think I would decide different punishments based on whether it happened to someone I cared about or someone else. I would however see it as my responsibility to make sure that the person got their due punishment if they did something to my people (pressing charges, following through, etc), but would leave it up to the victim's own people to make sure the punishment got carried out if it happened to someone else.
    Sure, but this debate is controversial enough, so I was arguing in the context of today's justice system in which the victims' families don't get to decide.
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    crazedrat's Avatar
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    I actually didn't read anyones post in particular, I just saw a vague comment I disagreed with so decided to explain the marxist view on prisoners
    INTp

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    Creepy-Diana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    The point is that you can remain objective. You don't have to change your views based on who it happens to. It's not a less devastating crime if it happens to someone else rather than to you.
    From my position, being against capital punishment, torture, inhumane treatment, etc., I don't want to claim I will be against all that should a crime hit close too home because I can't know that.

    I won't claim that there can't be situations in which I want someone dead. When I have this argument, someone usually says that I will change my mind when someone commits a crime against one of my loved ones. I don't know what I will think then and I can only give my view as it is now. I do think, however, that the decision about the offender's fate should be with a judge, not the victim's family because someone's fate should not be decided based on extreme emotion. That could mean that a drunk driver who killed somebody on the road would be executed or similar scenarios.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    So, technically the courts should be aware of where they're sending a person and what kind of treatment that person will expect for the given crime. The justice system however is not always just.
    And at least in the US, it really depends on in which state you commit the crime. It's better to be locked up in California than in Texas...
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    Creepy-Diana

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    The thing is, if you can be open to the idea that in certain cases you would want that punishment carried out, then you're not actually against the punishment.
    I am against capital punishment as part of the legal system. But that does not mean that I might not want a person dead under certain circumstances. That situation would be based on emotional stress and since I believe emotional stress should not be the basis for a decision over someone's fate, I do not believe victim's families should make that decision and that includes me.
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    I have a pair of pink underwear with Joe Arpaio's signature on it... He was at the mall (Arizona Mills, I think) giving them out one day... though I don't really remember what the reason was...lol. I know a few people who had DUI's that served some time there, they said it sucks... no matter how you cut it... everything about it sucks...lol. Though, I guess people could have sex through the fence in some places, since the men's and women's sides only had a chainlink fence between them in some spots, that's one thing better than most prisons I guess... (I'm only saying what I've been told). lol.

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