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Thread: Friendship

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    Default Friendship

    This sounds kinda well, gay and high school ish but...

    'What does a friend mean to you?'

    A true friend to me, is somebody that can give themselves up for you, that can be there for you- even when they might have better things to do. That likes you enough to sacrifice part of themselves for you.

    We all know this. But with our technological and information age, I think - most of us have forgotten how important a friend is. I know I have.

    It's not somebody that merely agrees with you, or has similar interests that you can talk about. It's somebody that when you need help (whether advice or help you move), can give you it.

    Who you know, and who you blow.

    Somebody told me internet communication is VERY ego-centric, you're not really helping or being there for anybody at all, which I agree. But it's why I'm so addicted to it, because it's just easier.

    In the end, it has to do with our choices not a level of psychological or innate compatibility. I can't understand why anybody wouldn't love me though, I'm adorable. =p

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    what is essential is invisible to the eye fox's Avatar
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    They come and they go.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Nice post, Sam. I think you generally got it. Most people are passing stimulation; they are around you for what you can give them, lost in appearances. With a real friend, it's more like something you fundamentally sense with them; everything else is like an agreement. A real friend is someone who is connected to you through your cores, inevitably tied to you forever. It's something visceral you just sense, and you stick together not because the other person is 'cool' or funny or confident, but because it's basically a blood bond. Anyone can make agreements with people—'you're my friend, dude.' But in the end, you'll have maybe several people whom you know are just there with you, standing the test of time and adversity. That is a friend to me. It's unchangeable and intrinsic; you either harbor the potential for it with someone else or you don't. And with those who do, you will just know it.

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    Friendship was never really important to me. I guess that's bad to admit? It's hard for me to maintain things...I don't enjoy it. I have a few that are really important to me just because I've known them my entire life but outside of that, it's really hard for me to maintain friendships without getting burned out and feeling tied down and stuffy. I hate feeling obligated to call or hang out every such and such days just to keep it going and if you don't , you have to worry about hurt feelings and what not. That's kinda odd, isn't it? I just really, really enjoy my alone time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Friendship was never really important to me. I guess that's bad to admit? It's hard for me to maintain things...I don't enjoy it. I have a few that are really important to me just because I've known them my entire life but outside of that, it's really hard for me to maintain friendships without getting burned out and feeling tied down and stuffy. I hate feeling obligated to call or hang out every such and such days just to keep it going and if you don't , you have to worry about hurt feelings and what not. That's kinda odd, isn't it? I just really, really enjoy my alone time.
    I don't find this odd at all, and I feel the same way. It just means you don't value the superficial interactions that most people take so seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Friendship was never really important to me. I guess that's bad to admit? It's hard for me to maintain things...I don't enjoy it. I have a few that are really important to me just because I've known them my entire life but outside of that, it's really hard for me to maintain friendships without getting burned out and feeling tied down and stuffy. I hate feeling obligated to call or hang out every such and such days just to keep it going and if you don't , you have to worry about hurt feelings and what not. That's kinda odd, isn't it? I just really, really enjoy my alone time.
    I actually relate to this. People in general are a lot of work.
    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    betas should be kept in zoos for children to stare and throw pop corn at.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Nice post, Sam. I think you generally got it. Most people are passing stimulation; they are around you for what you can give them, lost in appearances. With a real friend, it's more like something you fundamentally sense with them; everything else is like an agreement. A real friend is someone who is connected to you through your cores, inevitably tied to you forever. It's something visceral you just sense, and you stick together not because the other person is 'cool' or funny or confident, but because it's basically a blood bond. Anyone can make agreements with people—'you're my friend, dude.' But in the end, you'll have maybe several people whom you know are just there with you, standing the test of time and adversity. That is a friend to me. It's unchangeable and intrinsic; you either harbor the potential for it with someone else or you don't. And with those who do, you will just know it.
    oh strrrng, you made me cry.

    yes yes yes.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I have less than a handful of people who will probably always be my friends, the ones who will come and stay at my house when they're in the area, who will be over for weekly barbecues if they live nearby; the kind of friends that my kids will know and maybe even see as just part of the family. Part of what frustrates me, in retrospect, about my parents is that they up and left their lives in their mid twenties and don't seem to have any real connection to their past lives; we never have old friends who come to visit, people who are a link to their past, the friends who helped them through hard times and have become almost like family. Most of the people they knew growing up or in college are people they have come to disapprove of or simply didn't stay in touch with.

    By contrast, I have a few who I can see myself staying in touch with permanently, and at least one friend who I know will ALWAYS be my friend, no matter what. We have our troubles, we don't see each other much, but by god, if there ever comes a time when I'm not willing to fly across the country for this dude because it's been too long, I might not know who I am I can't stand most people's superficial approach to friendship; I know that nothing lasts forever, and that people move on and new things happen, blah de blah, but I can't fathom making an effort to get close to someone who I knew would simply be dust on the side of the road to me in a year or so.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Anyone can make agreements with people—'you're my friend, dude.' But in the end, you'll have maybe several people whom you know are just there with you, standing the test of time and adversity.
    Amen to this. This is part of why I can't even be bothered with stupid shit like college parties and superficial social gatherings; they don't mean anything because their relevance doesn't extend past that night, or, at best, the end of the school year. It's just wasted energy. If I don't really feel a connection with someone, then the only time of my day that they get is the part they might manage to force themselves into.

    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Friendship was never really important to me. I guess that's bad to admit? It's hard for me to maintain things...I don't enjoy it. I have a few that are really important to me just because I've known them my entire life but outside of that, it's really hard for me to maintain friendships without getting burned out and feeling tied down and stuffy. I hate feeling obligated to call or hang out every such and such days just to keep it going and if you don't , you have to worry about hurt feelings and what not. That's kinda odd, isn't it? I just really, really enjoy my alone time.
    You know, I was exactly the same way until maybe a couple of years ago. I spend most of my time alone, and I was pretty content just floating through life without any serious connections. I'm not good at staying in touch, I don't show my real feelings to many people, and a lot of people, when they break through the surface, just see me as sort of a jerk. When people from the past tried to keep in touch with me, I was like "God, why can't they just move on?" It was awkward that they expected me to give up my time to go on being a minor extension of their lives without the hope of anything real ever coming of it.

    However, one person has made me realize that there is something to be gained from really staying close with someone, becoming accountable to them, and truly becoming friends. He was one of my friends from middle school, a guy who I had picked on and sort of generally stepped on when we actually lived close to each other and had an active friendship. But he has always sort of looked up to me, for what reason I will never know, and he made the effort to stay in touch with me after I moved from our hometown, then off to boarding school, college, and so forth. At first I thought it was kind of awkward because, although I liked him, I didn't see him as the person in our group who I was closest to. But over time we basically became blood brothers, sharing all of our problems together, helping each other work through shit, yadda yadda yadda. It's cheesy as hell but I can safely say that without this guy, I never would have understood the value of REAL friendship, and without seeing his efforts to maintain contact with me, I might not even bother with making friends beyond acquaintances at all.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    oh strrrng, you made me cry.

    yes yes yes.
    thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    Part of what frustrates me, in retrospect, about my parents is that they up and left their lives in their mid twenties and don't seem to have any real connection to their past lives; we never have old friends who come to visit, people who are a link to their past, the friends who helped them through hard times and have become almost like family. Most of the people they knew growing up or in college are people they have come to disapprove of or simply didn't stay in touch with.
    This can be frustrating. It's one thing to lose contact with past acquaintances, just out of natural life rhythm. But to write people off or just forget because, what, you're operating from a different context (externally defined), doesn't appeal to me. I have a friend from kindergarten who I barely ever see, but when we do meet up, it's like no time has passed at all. THAT is real friendship—when the bond is what it is, regardless of any context or situation.

    I can't stand most people's superficial approach to friendship; I know that nothing lasts forever, and that people move on and new things happen, blah de blah, but I can't fathom making an effort to get close to someone who I knew would simply be dust on the side of the road to me in a year or so.
    Me either. And you can sort of gauge it early on; you just get feelings about people. I don't go around writing people off because of perceived flaws, but most of the time you just know when you click with someone (or not). So, there isn't much point in wasting energy trying to uphold some facile acquaintance with someone who probably doesn't even really care about you.

    Amen to this. This is part of why I can't even be bothered with stupid shit like college parties and superficial social gatherings; they don't mean anything because their relevance doesn't extend past that night, or, at best, the end of the school year. It's just wasted energy. If I don't really feel a connection with someone, then the only time of my day that they get is the part they might manage to force themselves into.
    I agree. I would only bother with such things for a cheap thrill. I'm not one of these people who is like, "oh, I don't want to do that because it's not deep enough"; I like acting on impulse and stuff. But I would never fool myself into believing that it actually matters. That's part of why I do it—because I want to at least be able to entertain myself, if I can't always find something substantial.

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    friends are ppl who don't want anything from you... who don't have anything to sell you... the others arrive and disappear... very few stay

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    Quote Originally Posted by JuJu View Post
    friends are ppl who don't want anything from you... who don't have anything to sell you... the others arrive and disappear... very few stay
    Yeah, they don't stand to 'gain' anything; you just gravitate towards each other because you sense the genuine desire to connect. Once that is established, nothing else is necessary. I could live in poverty with a true friend and still be happy with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Yeah, they don't stand to 'gain' anything; you just gravitate towards each other because you sense the genuine desire to connect. Once that is established, nothing else is necessary. I could live in poverty with a true friend and still be happy with them.
    same ... well-put

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    I'm not good at staying in touch, I don't show my real feelings to many people, and a lot of people, when they break through the surface, just see me as sort of a jerk. When people from the past tried to keep in touch with me, I was like "God, why can't they just move on?
    Hmm. I get this sometimes. From both ways. Sometimes the other person likes you desperately, and you sense that, and it makes you feel sheepish and guilty because you just can't like them back like that.

    I say you're more like completely in sync, on the same wavelengths. They want whatever it is you're wanting. It's a vibration, a pull. It's not anything to do with intellect. With most people, you hear their words but you cannot hear their music. It doesn't suit you. It's a thing where you always have to improve yourself, because they only want to be on your journey if you are happy doing what you love. Romantic love is similar, just with an erotic aspect to it.

    Also, it's the quirks thing. It's not idealized, and even though life always throws you with a loop you still stay with them.

    As for the whole 'BUT IT'S JUST SUPERFICIAL CONVERSATION! thing. I don't think any of us can go through our whole lives ignoring social conventions just because they always seem superficial at first. If you try to connect deeply right away, it's just going to seem weird or like you're moving too fast, you're gonna go there alone and they're not really gonna understand you yet to move into that sort of place. You have be selfless enough and have tempo enough to realize how much they're ready for.

    I mean, I used to have the same mentality and I can understand it, I just think now it's self-defeating. I think it's way too adolescent and psuedo-philosophical, and I'm not gonna try to get my simple trip to the drug store to always mean something.

    How else are you going to meet people? Well, there are a billijion ways sure. I just think if you want to go straight for the deep connection right away, it can't happen because then you're just expecting too much and trying too hard, and it can be superficial. Maybe YOU'RE the one that's being superficial, maybe there is incredible depth- you just have to sense body language or other clues.

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    Or maybe they are just superficial, stupid assholes. I'm naturally ambivalent so I just don't know.

    I remember growing up - people were lame, because they just talked about what video games or movies they like, it was an area of comfort. I liked when people were doing something, and they were clearly nervous about it, but they were doing it anyway- because then they were growing, and I just didn't see that a lot. Instead of being jaded, I try to look for those subtle 'magic-ness' now... I try to just, allow and accept, not judge. My perception of the situation in the beginning can be totally different from how it really was.

    And besides, it's always funny to me when alone or without that person in your life you feel empty, gap- but then when you finally have them it doesn't really feel magical anymore, it feels grounded, rational. It's like a lot of times, you only know how somebody truly meant until they're gone- and when you have them, it's not really that special, it's work, they immediately ground you back to reality- and as an IEI that is innately frustrating, but we need that. I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Wow I am totally seeing bugs like everywhere right now and its freaking me out.
    No dropping acid in the early hours of the morning, allie.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    No dropping acid in the early hours of the morning, allie.
    Don't worry; if she says she's "seeing bugs," then even if she is hallucinating it means that she knows she's hallucinating; otherwise she would say "wow there are bugs everywhere." So it's either she knows she's hallucinating or she's faking it.

    Which totally takes all of the fun away.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Cry for help.

    Get therapy.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    yeah, everything strrrng said.

    other than hubby and sis, who i have that with, i have two friends that we just know, just know. i dont see them very often, but we are always together. we just know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Friends remind me that there isn't a standard way of living. You no longer care if you're doing things wrong because there's people out there who do it the same way. And then everything about you that is a flaw or a weakness is neither of those anymore, but even if they were you couldn't care less. People will tell you that you're insane. They'll say your friends are insane too. But at that point you don't care about your sanity, because the crazy ones actually make sense. Who cares if the people that actually get you are a little crazy, anyway? I don't care what I am, and I don't care what you are; but whatever we are, we get each other—so we're something.
    I really like this Allie. I agree.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    All my true friends have been people that have been in some sort of institution of breaking the law. =/

    I'm a loser magnet, but I'm addicted to that kind of social worker ideal, of really helping people reform or I don't know, fight unfair laws. In fact, the origin of my name Sam comes from somebody that helps prisoners reform. (and when you think about it, most Sams tend to have laid-back natures and act like their names, so they allow criminals to redeem themselves of wrongs, true repentance.) So that's why I think I'll always eternally be attracted to bad boys (and them to me), and I just need to find a bad guy that isn't a total nutjob sociopath. Besides, if you never done anything really wrong how the hell can you help the world and do what is right! Redemption is so sexy.

    My parents want me to meet some rich, perfect jewish guy that never done anything wrong but in the end, I find them a bit too much. I get their point but it's much too sweet.

    I admit I have a hard time balancing this idea of wanting to be a helper/rescuer for druggies and sexy types that commit baby crimes.

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    Gilly, why do you care?
    INTp

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    I've been very lucky through the years to meet several incredible people who are completely OK with me being my authentic self around them. I have a hard time making friends because I feel like I have to put my "worker mask" on at my job, and my "out drinkin' beer face" for everybody not at my table when I'm at the bar, and in general my "I'm not dangerous but please don't engage me in social niceties face" (which doesn't seem to work very well, BTW). If I don't do these things, people think I'm an eccentric, cold-hearted elitist because I'm very self-contained and nearly always manage to do things my own way. Hell, many still think that about me even when I'm trying to project a more pleasant outward demeanor ...

    Combine that with my quirk of just not feeling able to start conversations, and it's really hard for me to crack open anybody else's shell. I'm pretty much at the mercy of somebody managing to appeal to me to crack open my own, and since I'm so OK with being by myself, I don't even respond to all such appeals. I think back on the events that have brought the characters I so highly value into my life, and there's not a clear pattern - it must just be circumstantial?

    I don't think I could be friends with just anyone, although I can be friendly, helpful, tactful, etc. as appropriate to the situation. And I don't hang out with hardly any of the people closest to my heart on anything like a regular basis. It's as if just knowing that someone somewhere out there knows the unvarnished version of me and approves of it is enough. Almost all of them are even more intensely asocial than me, so we don't worry about it if a month, or six months, or more than a year go by without speaking or hanging out. There's something I can't quite adequately describe that connects us even as we grow and change.

    Worker mask example: On Tuesday, a coworker wanted to go out to lunch. I brought mine, but she wanted to go so much that she told me she'd buy, so I assented. After we'd eaten, she told me about her personal belief system which includes reincarnation and guardian angels, etc. I had to smile and nod, because she's perfectly entitled to her views, but there is no fucking way I'm going to enter into a discussion about MY belief system at this point.
    In another example, my insurance is fucked up. I've spent nearly two months trying to get it ironed out, and I just found out about a brand new fuckup last night. So I had to quell my rage (I mean, I have spent so much time on this bullshit that I am beyond mere frustration) and speak to my office manager, because so many things have fallen through the cracks that the picture that's emerging to me is that my HR manager is either way overworked or else she's completely incompetent. And I knew it was tres un-PC to express my true feelings in an office environment, so I conducted my conversation with my manager accordingly - no four-letter words or outright accusations.

    Out drinkin' beer example - Last night was Wednesday night $2 pints at the place my circle of buddies has haunted for years. My brother and I were playing pool, and a woman came up and asked us if we'd mind if they challenged the table. Z was going home anyway, so the woman and her friend came over. They introduced themselves and offered to buy me a drink, and promptly started asking me where I'm from and talking about what they do for a living, etc. Again, I had to smile and nod - I was happy for the competition in pool, but I wasn't really interested in getting to know them better. It wasn't that I got a negative impression and dismissed them; it's just that I wasn't in the mood.

    I'm not dangerous but please don't engage me in social niceties example - Just this morning, I stopped by the grocery to get breakfast and lunch stuff for work. I can usually grab some fruit, some veggies, and some frozen food-blocks and be out within 10 minutes, and it's right on my way to work. But today, this woman nearby suddenly says to me "I'm just going to burst if I don't talk to someone about this!" And it turned out to be that she saw a box truck run into the underside of a bridge. He was able to back out, so it didn't even block traffic, and obviously noone was hurt. But she couldn't reach her husband on his celph ... and in the meantime, I was on the verge of becoming late for work. I (once again) smiled and nodded, but asked no questions and offered no observations, and as soon as I could, I walked off, still smiling. I couldn't see any neat ending to impose, and I didn't want to seem overtly rude ... it was a momentary dilemma, and I sure as hell didn't feel like my natural self.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    strrrng's Avatar
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    Ann, very interesting post. I felt like I was reading The Stranger (one of my favorites).

    You describe simply "knowing that a connection is there... that someone somewhere understands you" being enough. I think that is admirable and I wish more people had that kind of depth of feeling. And you mentioned how you won't see your closest friends often, which I relate to a lot, with one friend of mine whom I've known since kindergarten. Real bonds just are what they are, independent of everything.

    And the examples were enjoyable, because you're sort of a paradox. Not ill-intentioned, not necessarily amiable, but just there. But what you're witnessing, is a world full of people engaged in facility. The lady at the grocery store just had to tell someone about it, the lady you went out to lunch with was compelled to share her belief system. You are just trundling along, moving with the [superficial] tides of daily life, entertaining the passers-by, acquaintances, etc. They don't notice it, stuck in appearances, but you maintain a sense of self-containment, which is both admirable and potentially detrimental. But I'm not here to judge. I relate to many of your sentiments on a more fundamental level—namely, not caring about those things you mentioned. We can't always express our true selves; that's fine. But you keep moving.

    Weird how two of my favorite posters are ISTps, lol.

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    Ann, you must look very approachable.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  25. #25
    misutii's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Friendship was never really important to me. I guess that's bad to admit? It's hard for me to maintain things...I don't enjoy it. I have a few that are really important to me just because I've known them my entire life but outside of that, it's really hard for me to maintain friendships without getting burned out and feeling tied down and stuffy. I hate feeling obligated to call or hang out every such and such days just to keep it going and if you don't , you have to worry about hurt feelings and what not. That's kinda odd, isn't it? I just really, really enjoy my alone time.
    I relate to this. Now that I think about it there's probably been quite a few people that feel insulted when I don't keep in touch with them. And it's not that I have anything against them, it's just that I prefer not to have "day-in-day-out" friends around me all time. When other people start unintentionally interfering in my life, so to speak, it makes me antsy and nervous. I especially find it difficult to "hang out" just to "hang out"... that being said if they actually need help with something, even if for something like moving, I'm always ready. Goal-oriented activities makes interaction with others worthwhile, in my opinion. By now there's a decent amount of people that I'll eventually get back in touch with, this year, next year, or five years from now, coincidentally enough most of them have this same sort of attitude that I have so I don't have to worry (and neither do they lol)
    INFp-Ni

  26. #26
    Darn Socks Director Abbie's Avatar
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    A friend is anyone who wants to be around you just for the sake of being around you.

    ESTj
    1w2 sp/so 1-2-6
    Brilliand's Younger Sister
    Squishy's Older Sister

    Johari Nohari

    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

  27. #27
    redbaron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Like stalkers.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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