An arguement between my roommates:

[Gilly]

Person 1 is playing with pet rats on the sofa in his shared apartment. Unbeknownst to him, the rats shit a few drops while he is eating breakfast. Person 2, his roommate, comes home to find rat droppings on the couch, near where he usually sits. Person 2 notifies person 1, and asks that he clean it up. Person 1 removes the turdlettes from the sofa, wraps them in a paper towel, and throws them away.

2 politely asks 1 to also find some method of disinfecting the couch, because, hey, it's shit. 1 refuses, and offers that rat shit is sterile and has virtually no scent, that things like this happen all the time, and that it can hardly cause any problems whatsoever. 2 is confused at 1's refusal to do something that he sees as obviously necessary, and insists, somewhat more forcefully, that it is person 1's responsibility to clean up the mess that he made in their shared space, and do it completely. 1 refuses, citing that the couch belongs to him, and that there are virtually zero possible consequences for not sterilizing; he says that if it bothers 2 so much, he should disinfect it himself.

A twelve-hour mini feud results, with periodic bickering, subtle power plays, and some minor passive aggression. The spot remains unsterilized.

The next morning, 1 goes to the bathroom and finds that there is no toilette paper in the holder. He opens the door and mock-sheepishly asks 2 if he has an extra roll in his bathroom. 2 snickers and walks into his bathroom, gets a roll from beneath the sink, and stands outside the door. He delivers a well-placed ultimatum: 1 can have the tp only if he is willing to disinfect the couch. 1 laughs, mocks him, and accepts the offer.

Types?

[Angel von Himmel]

They are Beta, probably INFps ...

[Ritella]

Types?

Hmm. I would say that they're both in an Ni/Se quadra, and probably Beta.
1 is most likely Se ego. I'm going to say LSI.
2 could be...EIE or SLE.

[Angel von Himmel]

One of them is definably INFp ... INFps tend to make a big deal about "being fair" and at the greatest extent pull bullshit games we they are constantly trying to equalize interactions out.

I had a roommate who was INFp and acted that way. I wanted to choke the bastard.

[Ritella]

One of them is definably INFp ... INFps tend to make a big deal about "being fair" and at the greatest extent pull bullshit games we there are constantly trying to equalize interactions out.

I had a roommate who was INFp and acted that way. I wanted to choke the bastard.

Why is "being fair" bad? And INFps aren't the only type who care about that. And another reason why I still can't see you as INFJ...

[Angel von Himmel]

Why is "being fair" bad? And INFps aren't the only type who care about that. And another reason why I still can't see you as INFJ...

Being fair isn't bad ... it can be evil when being fair means someone trying to force an opinion on another, however.

[Ritella]

Being fair isn't bad ... it can be evil when being fair means someone trying to force an opinion on another, however.

those are 2 separate issues. and, wow, that's the first thing you've said that's surprisingly EII.

[Simon Ssmall]

Don't take away his carrot.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

I would say person 2 is Si valuing - he asks for cleanness in his environment and finds cleanness to be necessary, which I would say is Si-ego. An Ne ego might try to keep his environment clean, but he would demand the same of others in more extreme situations. From how I imagine this unfolded (2 was more adamant about his request and not really whiny; 2 was unwilling to clean from principle and not from laziness), I would say 2 is Si-creative. Perhaps 2 is ESE since he did not let this escalate past a simple disagreement. I admit that ultimatums are a bit unusual for an ESE, but can appear in the context of a joke, as in this situation.

1 I am less sure about. Ni/Se valuing and perhaps Ni-ego. The arguments he used (shit happens, this happens all the time, aka there is no need to bother keeping things clean because they are just going to get dirty anyway) are representative of Si Super-ego. He can also be a lazy Se-ego, but I would say the notion of fatalism is from ego Ni.

[Ritella]

IMO, the cleanliness thing can be attributed to a range of elements. Ti if the person thinks it has bacterial harm, Si if he wants cleanliness, Se if it's a territorial battle...
The only thing socionically significant to me was the sort of manipulative way in which person 2 got person 1 to concede and, perhaps, that the fight was more about property rights than anything else..

[iAnnAu]

I would say person 2 is Si valuing - he asks for cleanness in his environment and finds cleanness to be necessary, which I would say is Si-ego. An Ne ego might try to keep his environment clean, but he would demand the same of others in more extreme situations. From how I imagine this unfolded (2 was more adamant about his request and not really whiny; 2 was unwilling to clean from principle and not from laziness), I would say 2 is Si-creative. Perhaps 2 is ESE since he did not let this escalate past a simple disagreement. I admit that ultimatums are a bit unusual for an ESE, but can appear in the context of a joke, as in this situation.

I used to have a pet rat, and although shit isn't sterile per se, rat droppings are dry little chunks. Unless the couch was already filthy, within minutes any pathogens that could possibly be detrimental to human health would have already died. And of course if the couch was filthy enough to truly harbor unhealthy stuff then that's its own issue. So I wouldn't necessarily attribute person 2's insistence on disinfecting to Si - it sounds more like a moral stance to me, especially because he refused to clean it up himself.

Also, I've had plenty of nightmare roommates, and I especially would not resort to ultimatums like that because people who have already come across as petty to me are likely to do even pettier shit in reprisal. I don't know how much of this story can be attributed to type, as opposed to simple immaturity.

[Gilly]

Some interesting interpretations so far.

For the sake of clarification I feel that I should say that the "ultimatum" was made light-heartedly, albeit with honest implications; person 1 really did disinfect the couch, but the real purpose behind both 2s offer of the ultimatum and 1s acceptance of it was to release the emotional tension created by the conflict.

[Ritella]

Some interesting interpretations so far.

For the sake of clarification I feel that I should say that the "ultimatum" was made light-heartedly, albeit with honest implications; person 1 really did disinfect the couch, but the real purpose behind both 2s offer of the ultimatum and 1s acceptance of it was to release the emotional tension created by the conflict.

oh. if they were joking around about it, then i can see any type doing that.
also, the types may be in a Supervision relationship. It occurred to me that these are the kind of fights my sister and I get into, though without the rat droppings...

[strrrng]

How is this supposed to be linked to functions? lol, did person 2 implement some Se force when pulling the toilet paper "power play"? bleh, it's just basic sociology and survival-based interaction.

[Angel von Himmel]

Also, I've had plenty of nightmare roommates, and I especially would not resort to ultimatums like that because people who have already come across as petty to me are likely to do even pettier shit in reprisal. I don't know how much of this story can be attributed to type, as opposed to simple immaturity.

I initially thought it was immaturity, too. It can not be. It is not just simple immaturity ... for peat sakes, the INFp guy I knew was 45 years old and was acting the way Gilly described one of his roommates. Most people learn something about life about that time. Apparently INFps stay really youthful acting even around middle age.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I shared a room with a guy, 2 seperate beds btw, who put his fist through the window in the middle of the night and didn't remember. Another time he started screaming and punching at random things in the room. These days I sleep alone.

[ZTCrawcrustle]

I used to have a pet rat, and although shit isn't sterile per se, rat droppings are dry little chunks. Unless the couch was already filthy, within minutes any pathogens that could possibly be detrimental to human health would have already died. And of course if the couch was filthy enough to truly harbor unhealthy stuff then that's its own issue. So I wouldn't necessarily attribute person 2's insistence on disinfecting to Si - it sounds more like a moral stance to me, especially because he refused to clean it up himself.

Also, I've had plenty of nightmare roommates, and I especially would not resort to ultimatums like that because people who have already come across as petty to me are likely to do even pettier shit in reprisal. I don't know how much of this story can be attributed to type, as opposed to simple immaturity.

Mind you, I do not think you are Si-ego. I feel Ne-egos tend to be much more rational about such stuff. I remembering bringing rats home for Christmas break in sixth grade. My Si-creative mother would not go into the same room. Si Egos are good at detecting sensory inputs, but they can also be overloaded with negative ones fairly easily, even if you claim they are not there.

I think he is Si-creative because he took a stance rather than whine about it (Si-base). Se-base would escalate the fight much more and much faster. Se-creative would respect that it is not his couch. While all of these types have strong Si, how each of them uses it is different.

I do not think this case can be Ti, since Ti is about order and arrangement and not cleanliness specifically. Se possibly, but if you hang around guys with any level of Se, they are not the cleanest of people. As I said, the way it played out makes me doubt that either had strong Se.

Gilly mentioned the "light-hearted" use of the ultimatum, which would not have happened with an Se-ego, the situation would have deteriorated much more by then, and person 1 would not have gotten out without giving up more than the promise to clean the couch. Se-teasing is reminiscent of demonstrative function use.

[Khola aka Bee]

Person 1 is playing with pet rats on the sofa in his shared apartment. Unbeknownst to him, the rats shit a few drops while he is eating breakfast. Person 2, his roommate, comes home to find rat droppings on the couch, near where he usually sits. Person 2 notifies person 1, and asks that he clean it up. Person 1 removes the turdlettes from the sofa, wraps them in a paper towel, and throws them away.

2 politely asks 1 to also find some method of disinfecting the couch, because, hey, it's shit. 1 refuses, and offers that rat shit is sterile and has virtually no scent, that things like this happen all the time, and that it can hardly cause any problems whatsoever. 2 is confused at 1's refusal to do something that he sees as obviously necessary, and insists, somewhat more forcefully, that it is person 1's responsibility to clean up the mess that he made in their shared space, and do it completely. 1 refuses, citing that the couch belongs to him, and that there are virtually zero possible consequences for not sterilizing; he says that if it bothers 2 so much, he should disinfect it himself.

A twelve-hour mini feud results, with periodic bickering, subtle power plays, and some minor passive aggression. The spot remains unsterilized.

The next morning, 1 goes to the bathroom and finds that there is no toilette paper in the holder. He opens the door and mock-sheepishly asks 2 if he has an extra roll in his bathroom. 2 snickers and walks into his bathroom, gets a roll from beneath the sink, and stands outside the door. He delivers a well-placed ultimatum: 1 can have the tp only if he is willing to disinfect the couch. 1 laughs, mocks him, and accepts the offer.

Types?

LOL!! That sounds like the sort of arguments I pull with my ILI dad all the time (minus the rat poo). He's so funny when he's angry, but I think he disagrees on that point. Love it.

(I would def. be person #1 in this scenario)

[cracka]

While personally, I know mouse/rat shit isn't really a big deal so after the initial clean up I wouldn't care myself. But the thing is... There are however many people who are have a germ phobia that I'd respect if it were my rat or whatever that shit on the couch (this would never happen ftr). It's a respect thing to me though, If I were in that situation, if they didn't disinfect or whatever, I'd pick a good time to make sure and rub that cushion in their face later on, how mad could they get, there wasn't really anything there to worry about was there? After a little bit of time I'd probably forget all about it and sit there anyway.

[Gilly]

Well now that there has been some debate, I will reveal that person 1 is me, probably EIE, and 2 is my roommate, most likely LSI; if not, then SLE.

For the record rat turds are more sterile than cooked meat; these same rats belong to my sister and they shit all over her and her husband's couch, living area, and even on the benches around their dinner table; he is a major germophobe, and doesn't care at all. Whatever reasons someone might give for "it's good to be clean" or whatever, there was absolutely not real reason to clean beyond picking up the dry turds themselves.

Personally I saw this as a conflict between his Ti+Si and my Te+Se.

[RSV3]

Well now that there has been some debate, I will reveal that person 1 is me, probably EIE, and 2 is my roommate, most likely LSI; if not, then SLE.

For the record rat turds are more sterile than cooked meat; these same rats belong to my sister and they shit all over her and her husband's couch, living area, and even on the benches around their dinner table; he is a major germophobe, and doesn't care at all. Whatever reasons someone might give for "it's good to be clean" or whatever, there was absolutely not real reason to clean beyond picking up the dry turds themselves.

Personally I saw this as a conflict between his Ti+Si and my Te+Se.

I've had almost the exact same situation happen with myself and my LSI friend (albeit not with rat shit). He freaked out and wanted to make sure everything was spotless clean and I was like, "who cares?" (using slightly more agressive wording). Could the conflict be Ne vs Se?

[Khola aka Bee]

I've often wondered if I was EIE, but then I get all emo and don't want to talk to anyone for days.

[Gilly]

I don't think it could possibly have anything to do with Ne; I think it's mostly a Ti vs Te thing.

Bee, I'm the same way. EIEs probably have the greatest variation in behavior of any type, and tend to come in the most "flavors," if you will

[Gilly]

Then again the next most varying would probably have to be SEI

[jewels]

Ewww. Rat droppings aren't "clean." They carry diseases. At least get your germ facts straight before you decide what not to clean based on principle.

http://www.cdc.gov/rodents/diseases/direct_rodents.htm

[Gilly]

That might be interesting, except that these aren't rats that I picked up off the street. They are fed a controlled diet of store bought food, have their cage cleaned regularly, are hand washed individually, and generally very well cared-for; they don't run around in the sewers. dig through people's trash, or have sex with other rats.

In order to carry any infection or infectious disease, an animal has to be exposed to it. If an animal is not exposed to the thousands of POSSIBLE illnesses it MIGHT carry, then it's not going to transmit them, now is it?

[Rubicon]

I would have definitely wanted it disinfected too ... but after hearing that you had a logical reason for not doing so (and considering that it's your couch), I would have just done it myself. :-p

[Gilly]

I would have definitely wanted it disinfected too ... but after hearing that you had a logical reason for not doing so (and considering that it's your couch), I would have just done it myself. :-p

See, I figure he didn't really care that much, because, even beyond being 100% right, I made it perfectly clear that I wasn't going to budge, and he just didn't bother to clean it. I think he was just...well, read the thread about duals and arguments

[Gilly]

Did it make you feel alive?

That might be a bit much, but feeling the tension and then having the air cleared was a good feeling for sure. And it was good to get some of the anger out from between my teeth just by being stubborn and feeling confident that I was right