Alpha vs Beta Social Groups

[Steve]

Both have that Fe kind of atmosphere, and seem warmer to me than the kind of standoffish Gamma/Delta, but I still see differences between Alpha and Beta. From my experience I've found Alpha groups as generally more inclusive and flexible. The essence of the group is more accommodating and adapts to the needs of the individuals within it. It's more like a collective harmony that takes into consideration the immediate needs of all of the people in it. Beta groups to me seem more absolute - you're either in or out, and it seems like at times one person's will takes the lead and becomes the group dynamic, then that person loses power and someone else's will takes over, and everyone follows. There's no continual feedback of the immediate needs of everyone in the group as time goes along, as those are seen as superfluous.

What have you seen?

[Ms. Kensington]

never seen an alpha group..

but with a beta group, its been raucous and chill at the same time, and yeah, if youre out, its obvious.

[1981slater]

We alphas love to lightjoke whereas betas laugh at outsiders, specially at weaklings. Betas are usually strong people. There are packs of betas in gyms, football teams, karate schools,etc. They love to compete and to laugh. On the other hand, alphas are more interested in mental activities that allow us to laugh, for instance:board games.
If you can keep up with betas' forceful activities you will earn their respect. Betas are warmer than gammas by far. Deltas are suspicious of newcomers, but they are fine people after all, in a different way that betas are.

[Lotus]

Alpha groups are strange and uncomfortable. Beta groups care too much about pretending not to care. Beta "hierarchies," from what I've gathered based on the Betas around here, just seem dumb to me. Good for you, you have this complex system of "placing" people that no one really cares about but yourself.

Anyway, the way Fe/Ti types talk about groups tends to bother me in general. They discuss it as if they're talking about one person with thoughts, feelings, and reactions to things. "This person is 'in' the group, or 'out,'" and "the group felt this way or that way." It's like they're no longer talking about individual people anymore, and using Ti to organize something they experience through Fe? In Betas, the Se/Ni with Ti often manifests as some stupid "hierarchy" that INFps here don't shut up about. In Alphas, I think the Ne/Si creates this weird vibe of something constantly rolling over on top of itself.

[Satan]

allie just likes to bitch a lot.

[Lotus]

I actually feel the same way about the Beta hierarchy thing around here, and I'm Beta.

Haha. That's actually nice to know.

allie just likes to bitch a lot.

as;ldkfjas;dlfjka;sldfkjads;

[implied]

if you're funny and okay with making fun of people, you will probably do okay in a beta group hah.

[Mediator Kam]

Isn't railing against the innumerable crimes of the world fun Dolphin?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

For me it depends who's in the alpha group. I find ISFp's to be the most accepting and accommodating, ENTp's to create some good fun with their conversation, ESFj's panic that everyone is enjoying themselves and INTj's have this weird mix of trying to be polite but in doing so they end up managing to be rude.

[Mediator Kam]

I got a question though.

You're not any different when you're two people than when you're in a crowd of a thousand.

It speaks to reason that mob psychology plays a large part in people's daily lives. While I agree with you that when people get into a group, they can easily lose something important(ie common sense), but to say that people should cut all ties to each other and somehow inoculate themselves from groups entirely makes little to no sense to me.

[munenori2]

I'm for any group that it won't bug their shit if I'm off doing my own thing, popping in and out if I need/want to. The alphas I know are generally good about this. The betas I've known seem to be a little more insulted when I do that, like I'm only a part of the group when it's convenient. I've never quite understood why that would be a problem. I thought that was what a group was?

[strrrng]

Alpha groups are strange and uncomfortable. Beta groups care too much about pretending not to care. Beta "hierarchies," from what I've gathered based on the Betas around here, just seem dumb to me. Good for you, you have this complex system of "placing" people that no one really cares about but yourself.

How do we pretend not to care? And what is this in reference to? Have you ever been in a beta group?

Alphas in particular tend to steamroller anything remotely interesting that comes their way into some pulsating colorless "groupshare!" mass. Meanwhile, Betas are grappling for the spotlight in some kind of one-up-on-the-other-nigga-competition.

I think betas care a lot less about any 'atmosphere' than alphas, as it is constantly changing with the competition you mention.

Anyway, I think steve generally got it. Alphas tend to take the constant internal Fe interactions and disperse them into the external Si context, hence their focus on "a positive environment." To me it seems as if they are riding in a boat along a peaceful little pond, singing melodies to themselves. Beta groups tend to flourish in environments with rapidly changing 'impacts' (ostensible), that give a sense of flux to the internal causality of Fe. There is obviously a sort of Ti consilience underpinning both of these groups.

But I think some people are taking this idea too far. I don't seek groups out; I don't give a fuck about being part of something bigger. Don't conflate Ti/Fe with the social instinct of the enneagram. As far as real friends go, I maintain a small handful of like-minded people. The group thing is more or less something I enjoy and adapt to easily, rather than some imperative drive. Sure, I want people to rally for the cause with me, but whatever. Most of the time in groups I enjoy whoever will push it the farthest. This is where the individual ceases to exist: you have an energy coursing throughout the people, and different tactics are used to make the strongest effect. I don't care if your feelings are hurt, if it's too frustrating, imposing, whatever. You consigned yourself to whatever consequences that ensue when you opted to participate. It's great for weeding out the weak; and I don't wait around for anyone.

Thanks

[Lotus]

How do we pretend not to care?

They'll have an attitude of being above whatever they're involved in. But when they're not involved in it, all they care about is getting involved again. If that makes sense. Like they constantly need to be in a group they claim not to care about.

And what is this in reference to?

Uh... Betas? IRL.

Have you ever been in a beta group?

Yes.

[Satan]

I'm for any group that it won't bug their shit if I'm off doing my own thing, popping in and out if I need/want to. The alphas I know are generally good about this. The betas I've known seem to be a little more insulted when I do that, like I'm only a part of the group when it's convenient. I've never quite understood why that would be a problem. I thought that was what a group was?

you're in or you're out

[Satan]

How do we pretend not to care? And what is this in reference to? Have you ever been in a beta group?



I think betas care a lot less about any 'atmosphere' than alphas, as it is constantly changing with the competition you mention.

Anyway, I think steve generally got it. Alphas tend to take the constant internal Fe interactions and disperse them into the external Si context, hence their focus on "a positive environment." To me it seems as if they are riding in a boat along a peaceful little pond, singing melodies to themselves. Beta groups tend to flourish in environments with rapidly changing 'impacts' (ostensible), that give a sense of flux to the internal causality of Fe. There is obviously a sort of Ti consilience underpinning both of these groups.

But I think some people are taking this idea too far. I don't seek groups out; I don't give a fuck about being part of something bigger. Don't conflate Ti/Fe with the social instinct of the enneagram. As far as real friends go, I maintain a small handful of like-minded people. The group thing is more or less something I enjoy and adapt to easily, rather than some imperative drive. Sure, I want people to rally for the cause with me, but whatever. Most of the time in groups I enjoy whoever will push it the farthest. This is where the individual ceases to exist: you have an energy coursing throughout the people, and different tactics are used to make the strongest effect. I don't care if your feelings are hurt, if it's too frustrating, imposing, whatever. You consigned yourself to whatever consequences that ensue when you opted to participate. It's great for weeding out the weak; and I don't wait around for anyone.

Thanks

with some groups of people i feel stronger. this to me is good.

[strrrng]

They'll have an attitude of being above whatever they're involved in. But when they're not involved in it, all they care about is getting involved again. If that makes sense. Like they constantly need to be in a group they claim not to care about.

Interesting. I think this generally holds true. Like if I was in a predominately beta group back in high school, there would be a sort of implicit attitude of superiority, so while we would engage in certain social settings, activities, etc., we wouldn't 'try' to do it. And we would always move on quickly, because well, if you want to stay in control, you have to keep moving. And yeah, if there isn't anything going on, typically a few betas will eagerly jump to incite something, or perhaps leverage an already existing situation to gain control. Once we have it, there is no longer a need to try, because the group will take care of itself, and someone else taking control is unlikely.

with some groups of people i feel stronger. this to me is good.

Me too Although I would never want to be dependent on a group. I just think that the combination of energy from like-minded individuals can have a more potent result sometimes. And plus, other factions exist out there, so it's probably smart to have one.

[crazedrat]

that whole pretending not to care / caring thing is a trademark of borderline personality disorder. For example, when someone targets you for vengeance in a subtle way kind of like ... kicking you under the table at every opportunity, but pretending nothing's going on above the table, and if you call them out they'll say ... 'what? nothing happened'. And it's usually done in reaction to some time you've kicked them. But they must kick back, 100 times harder. That's the thing about it. Most people have this behavior to some degree. I've definitely experienced this phenomenon full blown with my ENFj sister. But my ISFj-Se sister does the same thing constantly, too. So i can't really say it's a beta thing necessarily

[Satan]

that whole pretending not to care / caring thing is a trademark of borderline personality disorder. For example, when someone targets you for vengeance in a subtle way kind of like ... kicking you under the table at every opportunity, but pretending nothing's going on above the table, and if you call them out they'll say ... 'what? nothing happened'. I've definitely experienced this phenomenon full blown with my ENFj sister. But my ISFj-Se sister does the same thing constantly, too. So i can't really say it's a beta thing necessarily

i think it's a gamma thing

[crazedrat]

Good for you.

[Satan]

Good for you.

actually, i used to do that to my brother when i was younger...

but then i used to like to put my arm around peoples necks, and pull backwards until they went red in the face for a while, and then i'd let go. and i used to want people to ask nicely to stop behavioru when i was being excessively annoying..

[crazedrat]

From my memory it occurs strongest when it's fueled by an aggressive sexual motive, like for males attempting to gain an alpha male position in a group, they'll fuck with eachother in this way. or when they're attempting to dominate a woman who hasn't conformed in some way. For females it's more like trying to break free of a males influence, or using hysterics to manipulate males into doing their bidding ...

[strrrng]

that whole pretending not to care / caring thing is a trademark of borderline personality disorder. For example, when someone targets you for vengeance in a subtle way kind of like ... kicking you under the table at every opportunity, but pretending nothing's going on above the table, and if you call them out they'll say ... 'what? nothing happened'. And it's usually done in reaction to some time you've kicked them. But they must kick back, 100 times harder. That's the thing about it. Most people have this behavior to some degree. I've definitely experienced this phenomenon full blown with my ENFj sister. But my ISFj-Se sister does the same thing constantly, too. So i can't really say it's a beta thing necessarily

From my memory it occurs strongest when it's fueled by an aggressive sexual motive, like for males attempting gaining an alpha male position in a group, or attempting to dominate a woman; or for females trying to break free of a males influence, or trying to manipulate a male into doing their bidding

Why does this feel so eerily familiar?

[strrrng]

actually, i used to do that to my brother when i was younger...

but then i used to like to put my arm around peoples necks, and pull backwards until they went red in the face for a while, and then i'd let go. and i used to want people to ask nicely to stop behavioru when i was being excessively annoying..

How could they ask you nicely to stop if you were choking them?

[Satan]

How could they ask you nicely to stop if you were choking them?

well yeah it doesn't really make a lot of sense does it.

to be honest, it's one of those "i didn't notice i was doing it, and then when i noticed, i stopped .. but hangon let's go back a step .. what the fuck happened there"

like have you ever noticed yourself in imposing situations, not quite sure how you ended up there?

[strrrng]

well yeah it doesn't really make a lot of sense does it.

to be honest, it's one of those "i didn't notice i was doing it, and then when i noticed, i stopped .. but hangon let's go back a step .. what the fuck happened there"

like have you ever noticed yourself in imposing situations, not quite sure how you ended up there?

So, how do you think you ended up choking them into being blue in the face?

I can remember situations similar to that. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but it's almost like your natural tendencies take over (in a specific area), and you inexorably transgress something, because you just don't consciously think about things like that.

[crazedrat]

that's the thing about it.
i definitely used to use these sort of domination tactics alot, too. when i was younger. and my isfj-se sister and INFp-Fe brother used them all growing up on one another ... really mercilessly. It made family life really unbearable, and ended up having long term effects on everyone .. looking back on it. I think everyone does it a little, but like i said it's a matter of degree.
But you should really realize when you're doing it, and step back from it.

[Satan]

So, how do you think you ended up choking them into being blue in the face?

red, not blue. pissed off?

I can remember situations similar to that. Can't think of any off the top of my head, but it's almost like your natural tendencies take over (in a specific area), and you inexorably transgress something, because you just don't consciously think about things like that.

yeah, it can happen from anti raises.

it's like when someone says "do you want a fight"? and you don't even say anything you just start fighting. and there's that kind of look on their face, like they have no choice, and they're not ready, and it's like they realise they've done/said something bad, and that there's no going back now.

[strrrng]

that's the thing about it.
i definitely used to use this sort of hateful tactics alot, too. when i was younger. and my isfj-se sister and INFp-Fe brother used them all growing up on one another mercilessly. I think everyone does it a little, but like i said it's a matter of degree.

I hate them. If you want to push me, push me. I will respect someone who comes up and hits me in the face much more than someone who spreads rumors behind my back about how they are going to hurt me. And if I was actually in the wrong, I would just sort of be like "ok, it's settled." It's like that with any situation: just be fucking direct. I hate people who try to create little angles, nooks and crannies that they can slip through and run their insidious plans. There's a difference between genuinely skillful manipulation (which always requires some indirection) and being a passive-aggressive, evasive pussy.

[strrrng]

red, not blue. pissed off?

Ah, ok. Anger can suffuse us at times. Then we forget.

yeah, it can happen from anti raises.

it's like when someone says "do you want a fight"? and you don't even say anything you just start fighting.

I love that. Like, if the person just takes it casually, and you just do it. I wouldn't even want them to ask; a simple eye movement would suffice. Then the fun begins

[crazedrat]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.
i think it's true it's usually either gamma or beta. it's really a carnivorous way of operating. kind of makes me think of delta and alpha as the leaf eaters ..

[Satan]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.

yeah it's kind of fun isn't it.

[crazedrat]

i duno. how old are you?
you will eventually become so tired of it. if you're around it enough

[strrrng]

Yeah. Each side fuels the other, really. I mean, you have two people sitting at the table, and the basic premise is domination; and that one won't give in to the other. So they both kind of elevate one another into this struggle, neither of them giving up. And each try harder to put the other in place. What exactly 'in place' means is somewhat irrelevant. It's kind of like watching dogs fight. You will swear pitbulls will kill eachother before one lays down and shows its stomach and neck to the other.

Interesting. I think you're right that there really is no 'place'—or even goal. You just keep pushing, upping the intensity each time, so it's not about how much one can do, but how much they can take. This is why I love any combat situation (verbal or physical), because it's like a threshold test to see just how much shit you're willing to endure. A pitbull fight is a perfect analogy for this. It's not about winning and moving on; there is one fight (as it always is in life), you have nothing (and everything) to lose, and you go to the end. This is why most people avoid confrontation all-together, because they don't want to risk anything. I'd rather die putting it all out there than live knowing I held back.

yeah it's kind of fun isn't it.

yep

[crazedrat]

right, but there's a difference between walking around with your eyes wide open looking for a fight, and facing one head on when an obstacle bars your path; and that's the difference between it being a strength and a flaw. some families get so caught up in this sort of fight mentality that it never stops. life is one perpetual fight. there's nothing constructive about that sort of environment, and the goal of the whole thing is forgotten

[strrrng]

ESFj's panic that everyone is enjoying themselves

God yes. This is like a cardinal trait of ESFjs (both subtypes). You take the control of the EJ temperament, and the focus on the emotional dynamic within the external context, and you have this pedantic "HOW ARE YOU" bullshit going on. And fuck lol, if something gets the slightest bit perturbed...they just go batshit crazy, but try to hide it under small facial mannerisms that connote anxiety, and will sort of do some "Ok, so what should we do now?!" to refocus the situation or whatever. It seems like a huge waste of energy to me. Sure, I like the Fe current, and will occasionally guide it to make sure the atmosphere stays lively, but I don't know? It doesn't seem to be as much of a consistent necessity for beta NF's as it is for alpha SF's. Like, we'll just inject some Fe jolt and let it run it's course, while Se dynamics ensue and whatnot. Maybe the more self-contained Ni context accounts for this; actions are just done from a standpoint of implicit continuity.

[munenori2]

you're in or you're out

Yeah, I've noticed some people have felt this way in the past. /shrug

[Khola aka Bee]

They'll have an attitude of being above whatever they're involved in. But when they're not involved in it, all they care about is getting involved again. If that makes sense. Like they constantly need to be in a group they claim not to care about.

Ok I am *kind of* guilty of this....but I digress, fuck you.

[Ezra]

Both have that Fe kind of atmosphere, and seem warmer to me than the kind of standoffish Gamma/Delta, but I still see differences between Alpha and Beta. From my experience I've found Alpha groups as generally more inclusive and flexible. The essence of the group is more accommodating and adapts to the needs of the individuals within it. It's more like a collective harmony that takes into consideration the immediate needs of all of the people in it. Beta groups to me seem more absolute - you're either in or out, and it seems like at times one person's will takes the lead and becomes the group dynamic, then that person loses power and someone else's will takes over, and everyone follows. There's no continual feedback of the immediate needs of everyone in the group as time goes along, as those are seen as superfluous.

What have you seen?

Yeah, that's not a bad analysis of Beta. Often I find myself avoiding certain Beta groups, especially those in which I have no real status.

[Creepy-male]

Since when were Delta groups standoffish?

You get things done, it's just that nobody joins in with my 90 dB laughter.

EDIT

Maybe it's because I'm a teenager, or something. Delta groups are just smaller, quieter Alpha groups, basically. None of the Gammas do anything social, and Betas have evil Fe, imo.

[Creepy-Pied Piper]

Removed at User Request