Ritella's dual

[Joy]

This topic's question is still under construction. Please note that Ritella specifically requested that the topic not mention which description is which. Thank you.

Ritella, please read the three following descriptions and discuss the ways in which each of the potential ideal partners would or would not meet your desires and needs. Also discuss whether you feel you would be capable of fulfilling the role that each potential ideal partner needs and how easy/natural/enjoyable it would be for you.

A.) Ritella's ideal partnet is decisive and purposeful, brave and full of initiative. He is capable of persevering a long time towards his goal, overcoming any difficulties at his way. He is not always capable of taming his emotions and outbursts of wrath, but can subordinate others to him and make them do what he wants. Ritella lacks such decisiveness; she admires strong people possessing leadership skills. She tries to be useful to them by giving cautionary advice.

Ritella foresees very well the negative outcome of certain actions of her ideal partner. She watches people's emotional reactions and then suggests to her partner measures to influence them. Without such advice her partner may act precipitately. He possesses good organizational skills. He has a talent for planning actions, distributing duties and resources. He at the same time lacks diplomacy. He will manipulate people like inanimate objects, not reckoning with their feelings and interests. Thus he turns people against him but he does not understand why. Ritella softens his authoritarianism, tuning him up to a warmer attitude. She advises to be diplomatic, calms him down, releases his irritability by jokes and compliments made at the right moment. At the same time she creates the atmosphere of politeness, being aristocratic, 'keeping aloof', regulates distance in communication, as soon as she feels the partner is ready to insult her. In this way Ritella avoids possible confrontation.

Ritella's ideal partner tends to doubt not only the good attitude of others towards him, but also noble motives of others. He rather notices people’s negative traits more than positive ones. Sometimes he is excessively suspicious, afraid of treason, and for this reason tends to surround himself by favorites whom he trusts. Ritella neutralizes his prejudice by her trustful and kind manner of communication, neutralizing his suspicions by assertions of her loyalty.

Ritella is capable of choosing a moment for sudden decisive actions, which discourages opponents, and this makes het useful to her partner, who appreciates her original advice. Ritella attracts people and manipulates their feelings and relations. She looks forward and prepares for the future in advance. She finds necessary acquaintances and fulfillers for her projects. Unlike her partner, she is optimistic and can inspire others with her optimism, especially her dual, who values interests in concrete affairs over all and so expects from others dirty tricks rather than assistance. It is for this reason he loses adherents and falls into depression caused by bad foreboding.

Ritella's shortcoming is her inclination to blame others considering them guilty of her own misfortunes. Her partner easily calms her down by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice. Sometimes he puts Ritella to shame, teaches her lessons of courage and endurance. Together with such a strong personality Ritella is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. She needs moral support, without which her vital tonus decreases. She needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.

(B and C to come)

[UDP]

You were a bit late in posting that disclaimer on top, Joy.

[Ritella]

A.) Ritella's ideal partnet is decisive and purposeful, brave and full of initiative. He is capable of persevering a long time towards his goal, overcoming any difficulties at his way.

I like this. I like "achieving" things.

He is not always capable of taming his emotions and outbursts of wrath,

People like this scare me, esp. if it's directed at me. I can handle emotional outbursts if and only if the person separates his logical/rational arguments from that and treats it as just a "side effect." If you are going to use emotions TO argue against me, then you'll just make me think you're an infuriating dumb-ass.

but can subordinate others to him and make them do what he wants.

NO. This would be okay if it wasn't worded as "subordinate others" and "do what he wants," and more like "lead/guide people."

Ritella lacks such decisiveness; she admires strong people possessing leadership skills. She tries to be useful to them by giving cautionary advice.

Yes.

Ritella foresees very well the negative outcome of certain actions of her ideal partner. She watches people's emotional reactions and then suggests to her partner measures to influence them. Without such advice her partner may act precipitately.

This is right, except "influence" is very much the wrong word. I don't want to influence anyone. That sounds manipulative? If you changed that to "ameliorate things" that would be sufficiently accurate.

He possesses good organizational skills. He has a talent for planning actions, distributing duties and resources.

this is admirable

He at the same time lacks diplomacy. He will manipulate people like inanimate objects,

I easily recognize and actively avoid people who do this sort of thing.

not reckoning with their feelings and interests. Thus he turns people against him but he does not understand why. Ritella softens his authoritarianism, tuning him up to a warmer attitude. She advises to be diplomatic, calms him down, releases his irritability by jokes and compliments made at the right moment. At the same time she creates the atmosphere of politeness, being aristocratic, 'keeping aloof',

this part- in and of itself- is good.

regulates distance in communication, as soon as she feels the partner is ready to insult her. In this way Ritella avoids possible confrontation.

why would my partner be insulting me? he's supposed to protect me from other people's insults! and i DO "avoid confrontation" with people who do this insulting thing, but I wouldn't avoid it why my partner. Confrontation is the only way to understand "what went wrong" or "can be improved" in a relationship; I'm not a fan of ignoring issues.

Ritella's ideal partner tends to doubt not only the good attitude of others towards him, but also noble motives of others. He rather notices people’s negative traits more than positive ones. Sometimes he is excessively suspicious, afraid of treason, and for this reason tends to surround himself by favorites whom he trusts. Ritella neutralizes his prejudice by her trustful and kind manner of communication, neutralizing his suspicions by assertions of her loyalty.

I don't know if I would call that my "ideal partner," but if I helped my partner to think better of people and of humanity, I would feel very....self-actualized?

Ritella is capable of choosing a moment for sudden decisive actions, which discourages opponents,

moment for action? No. In every job and activity that I've done, my biggest contributions have been in realizing all the possible ways in which pre-existing systems/operations can be ameliorated by suggesting a novel approach. I don't understand this concept of "moment for action." What are people acting on?

and this makes het useful to her partnet, who appreciates her original advice.

this segment- alone- works.

Ritella attracts people and manipulates their feelings and relations.

NO. VERY NO. I try to help people to "realize" their TRUE feelings and OPTIMAL relations. Why would I ever want to manipulate people? For my own advantage? My motto is "I just want to be left alone (and in peace)."
The only time I would ever try to minorly "change" something emotional is if I feel a group of people is being too hostile or counter-productive. Then I would sort of appeal to each party individually and suggest ways in which everyone can be reconciled.

She looks forward and prepares for the future in advance. She finds necessary acquaintances and fulfillers for her projects. Unlike her partner, she is optimistic and can inspire others with her optimism,

I guess. Though "preparing for the future" is something that I do better for other people, rather than myself. With myself, I tend to be negative and wallowing and in need of a kick in the ass.

especially her dual, who values interests in concrete affairs over all and so expects from others dirty tricks rather than assistance. It is for this reason he loses adherents and falls into depression caused by bad foreboding.

can't comment on this. i don't know my dual.

Ritella's shortcoming is her inclination to blame others considering them guilty of her own misfortunes.

UGH NO. My mother does shit like this and I hate it. People need to take responsibility for their own faults, as they so easily do for their strengths. Doing otherwise just seems irresponsible and irrational. And in general, when people criticise me I tend to take it very to heart in a sort of "well there must be an ounce of truth to this. how do i make myself better?" way.

Her partner easily calms her down by threatening to punish the offenders and to restore justice.

This is kinda hot.

Sometimes he puts Ritella to shame, teaches her lessons of courage and endurance.

what? i don't even understand the reasoning behind this.

Together with such a strong personality Ritella is ready to overcome everything, believing in success. She needs moral support, without which her vital tonus decreases. She needs, too, a support of an authoritative partner, who understands instructions and rules, possesses penetrative skills, realism and practical intelligence.

Generally, yeah, I like this. I'm not sure about "authoritative" though. I don't understand people who value "power." I just want to live in my own little world (with my future husband) and be left alone.

EDIT: Can't wait for my ideal partnet!

[Ritella]

Ritella, please read the three following descriptions and discuss the ways in which each of the potential ideal partners would or would not meet your desires and needs. Also discuss whether you feel you would be capable of fulfilling the role that each potential ideal partner needs and how easy/natural/enjoyable it would be for you.

Okay, is what I did good? I suppose at the end, I could post a summary "response," but maybe I'll wait until discussion on my one-liner responses to do so...

[UDP]

description party!

[strrrng]

Delta it is.

[Joy]

B.) Ritella's ideal partner is very hard working; he rationally spends his time and does not like getting distracted by extraneous talk. He is very practical and economical. He strives to be competent in business issues, accumulating necessary information on problems interesting to him. He tends to take on too many responsibilities. So he needs Ritella, who can suggest, which actions are most promising. Ritella willingly helps in this work, doing it diligently and qualitatively.

Ritella's ideal partner does not tolerate inferior quality. He likes integrity and uprightness in relations. Ritella, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. She willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions. Her partner sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner.

The second bright trait of Ritella's ideal partner is his ability to take care of his family's welfare. He strives for a high standard of living. He demands quality and possesses well-developed aesthetic taste. He is a kind of gourmet, likes tasty and healthy meals; parties for his close friends or family members organized by him are distinguished by very high taste. Ritella is very reserved in communication. She is devoted to her narrow but stable circle of friends. She possesses 'clever hands' and interest in various technologies, culinary and medical recipes. While her partner creates comfort on a whole, Ritella perfects all the details.

Ritella is very attentive towards people, which is not applicable to her partner who is interested more in results of work and communication rather than in the very process. For this reason her partner, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt. He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. Ritella softens ethical mistakes of her partnet, performs peacemaking activities. By her persuasions she softens harsh behavior of her partnet, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, she facilitates communication with others. This helps Ritella's partner to keep stable the circle of his business partners.

Ritella also foresees well the outcome of undertakings and relations. By her advice she helps her improvident partner to avoid many mistakes, the main of which is wishful thinking, especially about health and relations with people. She recognizes well the perspectives of new theories or technologies and she is among the first to struggle for their implementation.

Ritella's partner is conservative enough in his views, and without such support he tends to fall into routine, may even stop in his development, stagnate in everyday chores, or lose his spirituality, romantic feelings and interest towards intellectual novelties.

On the other hand, he is capable of thinking clearly and logically, of noticing what’s most important, of modernizing inefficient, outdated structures or technologies. He strives for higher quality and better outcome. Ritella needs such a partner, who switches his attention from trivialities to more global undertakings. In addition, he attracts her as a protector and leader.

Ritella is a very softhearted and sensitive person. Het kindness is often misused by the others. By contrast, Ritella's partner is full of initiative, but does not like when others impose their own initiatives on him. He may show aggression, but hardly perceives aggression of the others. Ritella, in spite of her indecisiveness, defends her own interests silently but impertinently, if she is sure of her being right. In practical affairs she is not very capable of protecting her interests, letting her more penetrative partner do it. She tolerates her partner's inability to praise, make compliments, which is caused by his insufficient understanding of individual traits and human potential capabilities. Ritella understands this aspect and considers it to be so obvious that she does not require words of approval. She likes the integrity and hard work of her short-spoken partner.

This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything.

(C's on the way...)

[Joy]

Okay, is what I did good? I suppose at the end, I could post a summary "response," but maybe I'll wait until discussion on my one-liner responses to do so...

Yes, very good. Once you've responded to all of them I'll mention which is which and encourage people who know dual pairs of those types to comment on your responses.

[Ritella]

Okay, just to throw it out there:
Brief personal things about me, which I will delete as soon as this thread is over bc it's embarassing and will probably seem conceited. Don't quote:

I frequently score in the top 0.0..whatever percentiles for most intelligence tests, I got accepted to arguably the most competitive college based solely on academic merit, and I majored in pure Math and attended meetings with noted scholars in the field. I'm not saying this as an "elitist" thing, but to bring up the point that I'm NOT going to seem like the average EII because I'm just not the average person. I mean what are the statistics? Less than half the people in this country go to college?
Also, wrt Math and college; I would say that I'm attracted to "intellectually rigorous" atmospheres, rather than "aggressive," as some people have interpreted it.

My parents and sister are all Se valuing, I grew up in NYC, my entire family is Italian Catholic Fascist, my parents used to beat me...
Okay, so while I don't value Se, I think I've sort of adapted to deal with certain types of it.

[Joy]

C.) Ritella's ideal partner is good at scheduling arrangements and actions for the nearest future, thinking over the details in advance. Such a concrete program of actions is exactly what Ritella needs, who is 'sinking in doubts'. His strict logic of facts leaves no space for exaggerations and conjectures. His cold realism calms down his restless partner, who likes his love for stability and order in everything. Ritella finds him a helper, support and 'good haven' in her stormy emotional life. She easily allows her partner to guide her in practical issues, although she may be obstinate in ideas. In addition, she distracts her partnet from being too scrupulous in the details, focusing him on general rules and the final objective.

Ritella's partner possesses well-developed will power. He is capable of overcoming any difficulties with enviable courage and stoicism. He is capable of 'holding in hands' Ritella, never allowing her to lose heart, to lose faith for success. He can mobilize himself and others in critical situations, but in everyday life he is enduring, can wait for natural upshot, without hurrying up events. He believes in educative meaning of personal experience.

Ritella's ideal partner does not trust the feelings of the others. Trying not to show it, he is sometimes courteous and agreeable in communication. But he quickly gets tired of such efforts and needs solitude, switching his attention to work. He likes a partner like Ritella, who is capable of ardent expression of her feelings. Such behavior leaves no space for doubts. In this case he has only to watch that these feelings remain stable, and to take care of the one whom needs him so much. Feeling coldness from the side of others, he shrinks into himself, becomes inaccessible and touchy. He can keep this pain inside for a long time, and this may even result in quarrels for nothing, for reasons seemingly quite irrelevant to the real problem. Ritella also needs emotional discharging and is quite capable of provoking quarrels.

Another weak point of Ritella's partner is his inability to understand hidden motivations of people's behavior. This makes him mistrustful and reticent, and sometimes too suspicious. He may blame someone for things they've never done, and changing his mind may prove to be very difficult. On the other hand, he may underestimate a possible danger, may not mention either positive or negative perspectives of development of a situation. For this reason he may be blindly careless, hoping for victory of common sense. He has difficulties with due evaluation of people's potential capabilities, new ideas or non-traditional approaches. Others may see him as being too conservative or too dogmatic. Ritella, who foresees all of this, gives advises at the right time, helps by deeds, takes preventive actions and explains the possible outcome of all undertakings.

Ritella is capable of emotionally influencing people, of inspiring them with her ideas. She 'calculates' in advance all the options of exiting a critical situation. She is a person with a spiritual nature and she constantly strives for self-development. This in fact saves her partner from falling into a rut, which is characteristic of him because of his wish to put everything in order and then to change nothing. Ritella likes great undertakings but does not evaluate her forces. She needs her partner's advice on taking business actions, on economy and rationality in spending money, on the use and quality of things. She needs a person, who will share with her responsibility and help in overcoming all the difficulties she has taken upon herself. Nobody can do it as efficiently as her dual.

Ritella sometimes lacks will power and is undemanding of others concerning fulfillment of concrete work. She willingly gives people small errands, which many of them forget to fulfill – but not her ideal partner! He is demanding of himself and others. He can organize the working process and achieve results. And Ritella, getting thus inspired by him, can fulfill a huge volume of work in a short time, and so never disappoints her demanding partner.

Ritella's weak point is her neglect in taking care of her own health and mental rest.She is afraid of being unaesthetic; discomfort in surrounding conditions or in her own appearance really unsettles her. Her partner undertakes the issues of material security, creates comfort, advises concerning the partner's appearance, quality of foods etc. He is a good housemaster.

In general, what this dual pair is distinguished by is a certain 'aristocracy' and isolation from others, a complicated emotional life and fidelity to the sense of duty. One more mutual requirement of these types to each other: be prudent in your actions! For them 'imprudent' means 'not one of us', for they strive to avoid any uncertainty.

dasdsfsd

[JuJu]

wow LOL... yeah it's about damn time Ritella learned "some lessons of courage and endurance" wtf

I've gotten to know her... She is awesome and she's also correct about her own type...

Many ppl here have unreal conceptions about INFjs... as religious nuts who don't think at all, who sit inside doing dishes all day... That's obviously not Ritella... Thus the confusion.

Ritella is highly intelligent and cultured... She's been all over the world and interacted with all sorts of ppl...

Ppl here notice Ritella's intellectual tenacity, and say it's a reason she cannot be INFj... I doubt many INFjs enter Harvard--like Ritella did--and after four years, exit this forum's weak INFj stereotype...

To know Ritella and read the description of ENFj-ISTj relations--lol... no...

[Joy]

stuff

Wow. Yeah, that could explain a lot.

[Joy]

wow LOL... yeah it's about damn time Ritella learned "some lessons of courage and endurance" wtf

I've gotten to know her... She is awesome and she's also correct about her own type...

Many ppl here have unreal conceptions about INFjs... as religious nuts who don't think at all, who sit inside doing dishes all day... That's obviously not Ritella... Thus the confusion.

Ritella is highly intelligent and cultured... She's been all over the world and interacted with all sorts of ppl...

Ppl here notice Ritella's intellectual tenacity, and say it's a reason she cannot be INFj... I doubt many INFjs enter Harvard--like Ritella did--and after four years, exit this forum's weak INFj stereotype...

To know Ritella and read the description of ENFj-ISTj relations--lol... no...

Yeah, as I was translating the EIE/LSI duality description I was thinking that, 1.) the authors don't seem to like EIE's or LSI's very much , and 2.) even based on what little I know of Ritella, this doesn't sound like something she'd be happy with.

(Let's not say which description is which yet though, not until she's evaulated each of them.)

[Creepy-Cyclops]

My INFj friend is highly intelligent also. An engineering graduate who has since specialised in programming. He makes one helluva chess partner. The two of us are exhausted after a game. Oh wait, now I sound really sad.

[Joy]

what? i don't even understand the reasoning behind this.

I think the idea of this is that when "Ritella" is whining about so and so being at fault for her problem with this or that, "Ritella's ideal partner" would sometimes see that she's just being weak and whiny and tell her so. Then she'd toughen up and deal with the problem. It would probably be up the "Ritella's ideal partner" to tell whether she actually needs his help or not (or perhaps if he feels like dealing with it?).

[Joy]

btw, my EII sister also scores in the 99.999th percentile on everything.

[Minde]

If Ritella is INFj (which I find most plausible overall), I think she would be of the extreme Ne subtype (bordering Alpha). If this is so, it makes sense why Joy would see/feel strong similarities between Ritella and Carla, especially if Carla herself is closer to Ne than Ti.

I'm not sure how to explain Ritella's resonance with Beta NFs, though. I would be interested to find the explanation for that.

As for comparisons between Ritella and other Deltas, particularly Delta NFs - Just in case anyone is doing so, I'm not sure that I should be used as a comparison benchmark, not unless you take into account non-socionic factors and also the likely large difference in subtype (I believe that I'm relatively closer to the extreme end of Fi). Perhaps better Delta NFs to compare her to might be Kim or Slacker Mom as they seem to come from more similar perspectives, have similar openness/bluntness (although, Ritella does seem "sharper" than even they). Mune or Ssmall might sort of work, too, though they come across to me as significantly "softer" and more easygoing. Oh, and though many of you might not remember her, Megan strikes me as a good possible comparison. She had a similar, hm, "sharper", breaking-stereotypes sort of attitude and feel, as well was (and probably still is?) a competitive high achiever.

[Joy]

Wow. Yeah, that could explain a lot.

Actually... thinking back...

Was if you that posted the story about an individual's conversation with her mom? If so, then I should say that the daughter in that story did seem... un-Beta.

[Joy]

If Ritella is INFj (which I find most plausible overall), I think she would be of the extreme Ne subtype (bordering Alpha). If this is so, it makes sense why Joy would see/feel strong similarities between Ritella and Carla, especially if Carla herself is closer to Ne than Ti.

I was just thinking the exact same thing, actually.

[tereg]

Apologies for derailing, but did people overlook

Okay, just to throw it out there:
Brief personal things about me, which I will delete as soon as this thread is over bc it's embarassing and will probably seem conceited. Don't quote:

this part?

[UDP]

from another thread

I think Joy's suspicious are warranted.
I think Ritella is massively, massively (and IJ) - based on my talking to her and knowing her.
I'm unsure, totally, whether or not she would to better with an or dominant. But I think she would probably do very well with an very, very Si LSE.

I still see her as an EII.
I see her as blatantly, blatantly infantile and strongly, strongly
Based on what we've talked about in terms of relationships and experiences, I don't see her as being a victim at all, and I think she has a major preference as opposed to . (Major Si preference to go with major Ne)

I think Ritella has a very strong HA, and it's cute, from a caregiver standpoint. And she seems slightly more "interested" in people and understanding them (in a natural way), as opposed to LIIs.

[Ritella]

Ritella's ideal partner is very hard working; he rationally spends his time and does not like getting distracted by extraneous talk. He is very practical and economical. He strives to be competent in business issues, accumulating necessary information on problems interesting to him.

This is very attractive. I personally hate "extrraneous talk." I really dislike it when people yap my ear off about things that I consider pointless, but at the same time I have serious problems with turning them away. I can only basically tell my sister or my parents "I can't take anymore." I don't need my partner to talk to me when he has absolutely nothing to communicate.

He tends to take on too many responsibilities. So he needs Ritella, who can suggest, which actions are most promising. Ritella willingly helps in this work, doing it diligently and qualitatively.

Yes, this tends to be the overwhelming characteristic of all my relations with people. In my last job, I did so much "extra" work for my boss (just because I sincerely wanted to help) that it ended up destroying my health.

Ritella's ideal partner does not tolerate inferior quality. He likes integrity and uprightness in relations.

I am SO sensitive to quality in ANYTHING, really. Like, if I have to buy a pair of jeans, it has to be like the nicest possible pair. This sort of upsets me about myself, because I can be really depressed? in my search for quality in everything, esp. when it doesn't meet my expectations. In material objects, I think it can give people the impression that I'm a picky little snot, which would hurt me, because I prefer to be seen as down to earth and because it's just the quality aspect that concerns me. In relations, there has been a real issue with me just learning to accept that relationships aren't "perfect" rather than break them off because of that. In marriage, though, I'm still searching for perfection.

Ritella, as a rule, is an exceptionally honest and conscientious partner. She willingly processes great quantities of information, draws general conclusions and schedules actions.

Yes. Again, every single job I've had; this has been my "thing." I particularly like it when people give me the info to process or direct me to a general project. If no one does that, I find it almost impossible to do it for myself; it makes me feel like I'm drowning in TMI. But I really need to be working in order to stay happy.

Her partner sees planning as a problem. On the one hand, he is sometimes too impatient, on the other – he may be distracted by outside matters, procrastinating on important issues and failing to fulfill them in due time. He accepts this fact very painfully. He needs an undemanding regulator, a provident and prescient partner.

i can't really comment on this. i can't see why it would bother me.

The second bright trait of Ritella's ideal partner is his ability to take care of his family's welfare. He strives for a high standard of living. He demands quality and possesses well-developed aesthetic taste. He is a kind of gourmet, likes tasty and healthy meals; parties for his close friends or family members organized by him are distinguished by very high taste.

I LOVE this. I am obsessed with quality in food and aesthetics. I think I have very good taste, actually, but I want someone to "okay" it. I like the part about "close friends or family members." I don't enjoy parties for aquaintances or for social networking or something. I wish I could throw parties like this MYSELF, but I'm too shy and self-conscious. I'd be worried that everyone thought the food sucked and then they'd hate me.

Ritella is very reserved in communication. She is devoted to her narrow but stable circle of friends.

reserved initially; not once i get to know people (i.e. likes/dislikes, how they react to things..). For example, consider how much "quieter" I was when I first started posting.
"Narrow but stable" circle is VERY accurate.

She possesses 'clever hands' and interest in various technologies, culinary and medical recipes. While her partner creates comfort on a whole, Ritella perfects all the details.

YES. In fact, in work with my ENFP best friend, I am very good at "perfecting" things. For example, he is the principal of a school. Everything about the school is HIS idea; but I was very good at suggesting improvements on a smaller scale and "refining" his ideas.
Also, wrt the "clever hands," I knit, crochet, sew, fix clothing for my friends, bake (but only if it's intricate), computer program, sometimes garden...

Ritella is very attentive towards people,

Yes, but sometimes I can be oblivious, like when I'm tired or hard at work. it's really painful to me when people think i've been insensitive the ONE moment i was more focused on me.

which is not applicable to her partner who is interested more in results of work and communication rather than in the very process. For this reason her partner, who is usually reserved and polite, may give way to irritation and wrath, especially when people take his precious time. At such moments he loses the feeling of tactfulness, may become blunt.

this is a little creepy to me. i guess it depends on how it plays out.

He needs an ever-reserved, diplomatic and peaceful partner by his side. Ritella softens ethical mistakes of her partnet, performs peacemaking activities. By her persuasions she softens harsh behavior of her partnet, appeals to his inborn nobility, magnanimity and conscience. By doing this, she facilitates communication with others. This helps Ritella's partner to keep stable the circle of his business partners.

YES. In fact, in my last job, there were constant disputes between teachers and parents. A lot of the problems, IMO, were caused by simple miscommunications. The principle saw that I was very good at clarifying the problem and working toward a positive, constructive agreeement; so much so, that he used to put me in meetings, just to do this, even when I had no reason to be there.

Ritella also foresees well the outcome of undertakings and relations. By her advice she helps her improvident partner to avoid many mistakes, the main of which is wishful thinking, especially about health and relations with people. She recognizes well the perspectives of new theories or technologies and she is among the first to struggle for their implementation.

Yes. In fact, I just told my best friend not to hire a guy because I thought he was lying and would bail on him in a month. And that is exactly what happened! My friend didn't take my advice; but I don't blame him. I can't force people to heed my advice; all I can do is warn people about negative consequences and inform them so that they can make the best possible decision, as well as provide unconditional support for when/if things go wrong.

Ritella's partner is conservative enough in his views, and without such support he tends to fall into routine, may even stop in his development, stagnate in everyday chores, or lose his spirituality, romantic feelings and interest towards intellectual novelties.

On the other hand, he is capable of thinking clearly and logically, of noticing what’s most important, of modernizing inefficient, outdated structures or technologies. He strives for higher quality and better outcome. Ritella needs such a partner, who switches his attention from trivialities to more global undertakings. In addition, he attracts her as a protector and leader.

Umm... Everyone thinks I'm OCD BECAUSE i over-focus on "trivialities." Besides Prozac, the only thing I've found that help me get out of this is interacting with people who are dealing with "more important matters." Then I feel really healthy and happy.

Ritella is a very softhearted and sensitive person. Het kindness is often misused by the others.

I don't think I'm really "soft." I don't know if people misuse me. My mom thinks they do, but to me, I KNOW they do. I'm not naiive, it's just...I give people the benefit of the doubt. People can use you AND be good-intentioned.
For example, I let my friend live with me for 2 months gratis when she was unemployed. She was using me, but I don't think she wasn't also my friend.

By contrast, Ritella's partner is full of initiative, but does not like when others impose their own initiatives on him. He may show aggression, but hardly perceives aggression of the others.

no idea

Ritella, in spite of her indecisiveness, defends her own interests silently but impertinently, if she is sure of her being right.

Yes, though not "silently." But, for example, in things regarding the ethics of this forum and its moderation, I am VERY SURE that I am right.

In practical affairs she is not very capable of protecting her interests, letting her more penetrative partner do it.

i don't even know what day it is...

She tolerates her partner's inability to praise, make compliments, which is caused by his insufficient understanding of individual traits and human potential capabilities. Ritella understands this aspect and considers it to be so obvious that she does not require words of approval.

ugh. i dunno about this. i think it might hurt my self-esteem. i sort of need to know i'm valued. but people don't really need to SAY it.

She likes the integrity and hard work of her short-spoken partner.

This dual pair is characterized with certain reticence, isolation from other people, hard work, and attention to details and integrity in everything.

YES YES YES. My dad's quote for me since age 4 is "you just want to be left alone and do your own thing."

[Wynch]

Out of curiosity, I've never actually seen/heard the case for INFj for Ritella. Is there a place where it's been discussed in detail?

[Minde]

For the record, I don't associate myself with the notions of subtypes that exist on the forums. I don't believe myself to be closer to Ne than Ti.

That's fine. I don't expect everyone to, which is why I presented it as my personal opinion as opposed to an established fact. Subtypes as I understand them make sense to me, though, and help me make sense of a lot of things, so I will continue to use them in my own views. I hope that doesn't bother you.

[Ritella]

ETA: The only thing I possibly don't like about the second description is that it can be interpreted as me being sort of subservient and frail. I like to consider myself spunky and self-sufficient.

[Ritella]

Actually... thinking back...

Was if you that posted the story about an individual's conversation with her mom? If so, then I should say that the daughter in that story did seem... un-Beta.

I don't remember. Which conversation? I post a lot of conversations with my mom.

[Joy]

The lovely one, if I'm not mistaken. It had its own thread.

[strrrng]

The heightened intelligence and intensity is what produces the experiential awareness I think I have been witnessing with her. It's a shame that this trait commonly gets associated with betas at a higher frequency than other types. As if we are the visionaries who live BIG LIVES


Everything Ritella has said thus far points very convincingly to INFj.

[Ritella]

wow LOL... yeah it's about damn time Ritella learned "some lessons of courage and endurance" wtf

I've gotten to know her... She is awesome and she's also correct about her own type...

Many ppl here have unreal conceptions about INFjs... as religious nuts who don't think at all, who sit inside doing dishes all day... That's obviously not Ritella... Thus the confusion.

Ritella is highly intelligent and cultured... She's been all over the world and interacted with all sorts of ppl...

Ppl here notice Ritella's intellectual tenacity, and say it's a reason she cannot be INFj... I doubt many INFjs enter Harvard--like Ritella did--and after four years, exit this forum's weak INFj stereotype...

To know Ritella and read the description of ENFj-ISTj relations--lol... no...

THANK YOU. Seriously, this means a lot. I think everything you said was really accurate and well put and, well, had I said it myself (as you tried to do in your post- and that WAS the only reason you did IMO) then it would have been met with cries of "elitist" and "slaughter her."
And I particularly agree with the "intellectual tenacity" thing. That is NOT Se (or NT), as so many people seem to think.

Wow. Yeah, that could explain a lot.

yeah, i mean, my main source of contention with people on this forum is that they don't understand PEOPLE well enough to know what is attributable to socionics and what isn't.
For example, if I say "Fuck off!" to instigate a negative emotion, that may be Se, but if I am saying it in a joking way and I know the person will think that, then it's really not.
A lot of people here can't seem to understand the motive for people's expressions.
AND, I should add that this is one of the reasons why I find convos with Juju about socionics much more productive than, say, Niffweed (no offense). I think Juju's posts (as well as the one above) are a testament to his ability to understand people and sort the socionics blabber in such a way that it ACTUALLY applies to people in real life, rather than just imaginary people in his head.

This is a reason as to why we seem similar, Joy. We have similar backgrounds. (Will also delete this post.)

Attraction to intellectual rigor is most certainly interpreted as Se on this forum. Idiots like Cyclops consistently make this mistake.

YES. And hence why Carla is one of my favorite people here. Intellectual rigor and look-alike relations explains it best, IMO.

EDIT: I don't mean to agree with calling Cyclops an idiot; I just meant that I agree with the "intellectual rigor is not Se" part.

[Ritella]

The lovely one, if I'm not mistaken. It had its own thread.

do you remember at all what it was about?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

THANK YOU. Seriously, this means a lot. I think everything you said was really accurate and well put and, well, had I said it myself (as you tried to do in your post- and that WAS the only reason you did IMO) then it would have been met with cries of "elitist" and "slaughter her."
And I particularly agree with the "intellectual tenacity" thing. That is NOT Se (or NT), as so many people seem to think.


yeah, i mean, my main source of contention with people on this forum is that they don't understand PEOPLE well enough to know what is attributable to socionics and what isn't.
For example, if I say "Fuck off!" to instigate a negative emotion, that may be Se, but if I am saying it in a joking way and I know the person will think that, then it's really not.
A lot of people here can't seem to understand the motive for people's expressions.


YES. And hence why Carla is one of my favorite people here. Intellectual rigor and look-alike relations explains it best, IMO.

My post was initially intended to say I agree with what you are saying here, until I got to the last paragraph that is.

I'm not sure what Carla is talking about, but I just noticed her post as it is quoted (I have her on ignore.)

Suffice it to say what she thinks are my views are nothing of the sort. Not sure why she is talking about me, I haven't spoke to her since she kept putting the boot into JuJu (and Unefile when she thought of herself as ENFp.)

[Rubicon]

The lovely one, if I'm not mistaken. It had its own thread.

You mean the 'delightful' one? That was mine.

[Joy]

do you remember at all what it was about?

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...daughter+convo

sorry, it was "delightful", not "lovely"

[Joy]

You mean the 'delightful' one? That was mine.

lol yeah... just found it

[Ritella]

also, i should prob also add that I think I have to "project myself" a bit more than the average EII because if I don't, it would seem incredibly weird...
I mean, I'm 5'10" and have sort of unusual features. I've been approached randomly on the street for modeling contracts about 10 times since I was a teen. And I don't mean this in a conceited way, bc anyone who knows me will tell you that I have serious issues with my appearance and that each time I was approached I ran away screaming that the person was "mocking" me.
Add that to the knowledge that I've gone to an Ivy league school and, well, people are not going to react well to me if I sit in the corner. In fact, as I'm naturally shy, whenever I do this, people think that I'm being an elitist, aloof snot and judging people from a distance.
Last weekend I was at a bar and received a 2 hour lecture from my gay friend on how he doesn't understand why I'm not like "I'm EXTROADINARY" and walking around "owning a room" an all. And I was like "you don't understand. I can't. my attitude towards everything about myself is <shrug> 'who cares. it's just me.'"

[Ritella]

Okay. crap. must meet with someone and I currently smell.
will respond to C when I get home at around 8.

[Rick]

Wow, a good thread on Ritella! (nice job on the descriptions, Joy -- that's a lot of work and it looks pretty convincing after it's done)

Having met her, I would like to put socionics aside and comment on what seemed to be her most notable characteristics. These are neither positive nor negative.

1. Highly verbal. Spoke briskly, loudly, and often (when with other people, duh). Able to go off on long monologues, and would lose track of listeners' reactions, if those reactions were not verbally expressed. I've found the level of verbosity to vary greatly among people of a single type, so I don't associate this with anything socionic. Combined with the verbality is an intense preoccupation with her own thoughts such that she loses track of external happenings. This could suggest a verbose introvert as opposed to a verbose extravert. When I get verbose and go off on monologues, for instance, I still make random observations about things taking place around me.

2. Fixed mental state. Did not shift from state to state as the setting changed, or externally convey a need to change the situation. Did not shift her body to reflect her changing inner sensations. I would tend to associate this with rationality, and probably with a low focus on . In Ritella's case, it was extremely evident. Compared to Ritella, someone like Thehotelambush seems almost irrational

3. Intellectual. Clearly highly intelligent and aware of a lot of academic/scientific subjects. Not socionics-related, in my opinion, though her "brand" of it was obviously intuitive (if anything because of the obvious lack of sensing). In addition, she did not seem to naturally foresee others' degree of intellectual interest in topics, as leading types tend to do. Instead, she would make assumptions about what she thought people would be interested in, based on the situation. This suggests rationality, in my opinion. Along with the intellectuality is a person-focus (application to societal relationships, people's attitudes, education and upbringing, etc.) that betrays ethics, but is also more typical of women in general.

4. Focused on relationships. Talked about relationships a lot, frequently bringing up things from her personal history. Seemed to ruminate about relationships a lot and her role in them. I would relate this to ethics. It seems the issue is vs. ; I would say her focus on "what should I do?" rather than what is objectively taking place between people points to . Seems somewhat prone to self-blame rather than blaming others. Perhaps also in favor of ?

5. Oblivious to her surroundings. I practically felt like a sensing type around her, by comparison . Low level of awareness of visual stimuli (i.e. surrounding objects, location and setting, traffic, etc.). As mentioned in p. 1, thinking/reflection/talking seems to take up all her attention so that she is unable to appreciate her surroundings without outside prodding. This points clearly to intuition.

6. Rather high-strung; a worrier. I think this is related somehow to the verbosity and mental preoccupation. If Prozac is part of the picture, perhaps that has something to do with these points. Seemed more worried about abstract topics, theories, and of course relationships than was warranted. In this case I would say this points to rationality, but I do not mean to say that rational types are naturally high-strung.

__________

vs. :

I would say that with her high focus on relationships, while at the same time needing time to begin experiencing them with people, points to leading over . A leading type, I think, would be more attentive to people's reactions and objective qualities.

[strrrng]

THANK YOU. Seriously, this means a lot. I think everything you said was really accurate and well put and, well, had I said it myself (as you tried to do in your post- and that WAS the only reason you did IMO) then it would have been met with cries of "elitist" and "slaughter her."

People who respond that way are just insecure, inferior dipshits who are just afraid of being pwned. If what you're saying is true, it doesn't matter how you deliver it. People can fuck off with their feigned equanimity and whatnot.

And I particularly agree with the "intellectual tenacity" thing. That is NOT Se (or NT), as so many people seem to think.

Yes, it's a heightened concentration overall—mind, body, central nervous system. As if one's energy harbors a specific potential threshold [for intensity] that must constantly be activated. I've known Se valuers who were little bitches, and Si valuers who were intense as hell. Granted, the proportion of intense people tends to reside mostly in the Se quadras IME, but this isn't to be taken as some sort of standard; just a general, currently unexplained trend (I don't feel like sharing hypotheses atm).

yeah, i mean, my main source of contention with people on this forum is that they don't understand PEOPLE well enough to know what is attributable to socionics and what isn't.
For example, if I say "Fuck off!" to instigate a negative emotion, that may be Se, but if I am saying it in a joking way and I know the person will think that, then it's really not.
A lot of people here can't seem to understand the motive for people's expressions.
AND, I should add that this is one of the reasons why I find convos with Juju about socionics much more productive than, say, Niffweed (no offense). I think Juju's posts (as well as the one above) are a testament to his ability to understand people and sort the socionics blabber in such a way that it ACTUALLY applies to people in real life, rather than just imaginary people in his head.

Yeah, well, that's because Justin has experienced more than most people will ever experience in their lives, while niffweed sits in his room all day theorizing. Big difference, yet niffweed is seen as some guru on this shit. Socionics doesn't even matter on a gestalt level. When I'm out doing shit, I barely see all the theoretical constructs. I notice functions in play, as they happen, which is an awesome process. I may analyze it a bit later on, but for the most part, direct experience weeds out everything.

[strrrng]

All this talk about environmental obliviousness. pfft Ritella, use that mind of yours for some acute observation every now and then. Theories and ideas are nice and dandy, but there's nothing like the pure, visceral beauty in observing every vital detail of your surroundings, noticing interactions as they happen in the present with immense vigor, and just becoming generally experientially engulfed. This is coming from an Ni-INFp lol, so believe me. It may be different for you, using Si and whatnot, but I know that being more experientially and sensorily aware now (as opposed to my absent-minded past years), I feel a lot more alive.

[crazedrat]

So now that we have done all this to weed out the cancer that is Joy, and we know Ritella is INFj, we can go back to living as normal.