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Thread: Bullying and socionics

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    Default Bullying and socionics

    What effect would psychological pressure have on the manifestation of type traits?
    www.bullyonline.org/related/family

    What does bullying do to my health?

    Bullying causes injury to health and makes you ill. How many of these symptoms do you have?

    constant high levels of stress and anxiety
    frequent illness such as viral infections especially flu and glandular fever, colds, coughs, chest, ear, nose and throat infections (stress plays havoc with your immune system)
    aches and pains in the joints and muscles with no obvious cause; also back pain with no obvious cause and which won't go away or respond to treatment
    headaches and migraines
    tiredness, exhaustion, constant fatigue
    sleeplessness, nightmares, waking early, waking up more tired than when you went to bed
    flashbacks and replays, obsessiveness, can't get the bullying out of your mind
    irritable bowel syndrome
    skin problems such as eczema, psoriasis, athlete's foot, ulcers, shingles, urticaria
    poor concentration, can't concentrate on anything for long
    bad or intermittently-functioning memory, forgetfulness, especially with trivial day-to-day things
    sweating, trembling, shaking, palpitations, panic attacks
    tearfulness, bursting into tears regularly and over trivial things
    uncharacteristic irritability and angry outbursts
    hypervigilance (feels like but is not paranoia), being constantly on edge
    hypersensitivity, fragility, isolation, withdrawal
    reactive depression, a feeling of woebegoneness, lethargy, hopelessness, anger, futility and more
    shattered self-confidence, low self-worth, low self-esteem, loss of self-love, etc
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    *sighs*

    bullying is the symptom, not the cause

    the cause is a combination of low norepinephrine and a low sense of self worth
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    *sighs*

    bullying is the symptom, not the cause

    the cause is a combination of low norepinephrine and a low sense of self worth
    Excellent idea Joy. But once one is being bullied, how would that affect type?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    So...where does the low sense of self-worth come from? Certainly it is not an innate characteristic.
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    hold on, are we talking about getting bullied or being a bully?

    (and yes, self worth IS the issue with bullies)
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    Quote Originally Posted by tempus
    So...where does the low sense of self-worth come from? Certainly it is not an innate characteristic.
    Excellent point tempus, that's what I am trying to find out. How would pressure affect type. Low self esteem is one of the consequences of the bullying by the bully. It might stop the individul from fully developing their abilities. For instance an INFP in the military might be bullied for expressing feelings, and this would result in them not showing them perhaps? What do you think?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    hold on, are we talking about getting bullied or being a bully?

    (and yes, self worth IS the issue with bullies)
    I am interested in the victim in this case, although often victims do become perpetrators in time. For instance imagine that in a corporate environment one is bullied for being a divergent thinker. How would that affect the thinking process of the individual? Bullies only want a pretext, it doesn't matter if the thinking is actually helpful, as long as they can pick on it.
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    "For instance an INFP in the military might be bullied for expressing feelings, and this would result in them not showing them perhaps? What do you think?"

    Absolutely. To achieve acceptance and thus to maintain a sense of self-worth one might very well repress certain aspects of their personality. In a negative psychological atmosphere, repression of the first two functions ("ego") is likely. The super-ego functions will likely manifest themselves.
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    Does anyone feel like they are up for a good bullying?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    "Resistance was experienced and reported by those whose Type was not modeled, not rewarded and/or openly punished by key individuals, authority figures and organizations in their life.

    Rejection was encountered and reported when the person had been abandoned or shamed because their Type did not match a standard, norm or desired pattern, and/or when their inferior function was shamed.

    Resistance and rejection were found to encourage persons experiencing them to make conscious or unconscious decisions to adapt away from their natural Type by developing and using competencies housed in one or more of their non-dominant functions. Indeed, our observations have shown that given the general pattern in the USA of rewarding Extraverted Thinkers first and foremost, and extraverted Sensation Types next, as much as 70% of those not naturally gifted in these functions adapt to develop and use thinking, extraverted thinking, and/or extraverted sensation in order to fit in, belong and be rewarded. This kind of adaptation is what Jung called The Falsification of Type. We have simply labeled it adaption in The Art of Using Your Whole Brain. Jean Bolen refers to it as Identifying with one's Persona. For the purposes of this dialog on depression-generating contexts and processes, these three concepts may be considered as identical."

    From www.benziger.org. This website presents a neuro-physiological hypothesis to the concept of type.
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    Edited for gayness.

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    Creepy-pokeball

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    There are several deviation/conformist and non-conformist mixtures. I can list them if you wish. If not, save me time.

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    Edited for gayness.

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    For some reason I've always been one to passively fight against bullies by unapologetically befriending the "class loser". People would say, "Why do you hang out with her Joy? If you wanted to you could come eat lunch with us," to which I would respond that I liked that person and would hang out with whoever I wanted to, never feeling less cool for my decision. I think this started in 5th grade, but I was homeschooled for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd so perhaps I would have always done that had a been in school the whole time... OR perhaps I never would have if I hadn't known what it was like to eat lunch alone.

    Gah I have to go to work. I have more to say. Later.
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    A picture is worth a thousand words...



    It's true... I can't draw in MSPaint...

    edit: dammit, it won't come out big enough! *grr*

    re-edit: I got it to work now

    re-re-edit: It's a dramatisation, btw. Some events may not have actually happened

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    Thank you very much guys this is great. What if there is psychological presure to use an inferior function in order to be acceptable, such as Te insted of Fe or Se insted of Si? What would happen? Would it develope the inferior function or just destroy the main one?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    If it persists, you end up with my little flow-chart. Using your PoLR (for example) is not an easy thing to do for a multitude of reasons. Suppressing your Ego functions is also difficult because it requires a lot of effort (over prolonged periods, anyway). If you're constantly staying outside of your comfort zone, you will crack.

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    Do you know how Fe and Fi are connected? I think that I store the extre Fe input in my Fi and this screws things up for me at least, or it could be the reverse
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Do you know how Fe and Fi are connected? I think that I store the extre Fe input in my Fi and this screws things up for me at least, or it could be the reverse
    I think it depends partly on where they are in the Model A.

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    Well Fe is supposed to be at the front of your brain and Fi in the back. But I often get to feel peoples' intentions on the back rather than front, does it make any sense?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Well, I imagine the relationship between and is different for an INFp compared to an ESFj, and again with ISTp or anything other type than the look-a-like.

    Not extremely different, though.

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    How do you notice if a person is Fe or Fi dominant?
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    express their emotions more obviously. They also try to get others to manifest their emotions. is not so obvious (I suppose all the introverted functions are subtle comapred to their extroverted sounterparts).

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    And how do you distinguish between your own Fe and Fi?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    (2nd function) I am emotional and effusively affectionate

    (8th function) I refuse to take sides or believe one person over another simply because I know them or it's proven to be the case before.

    I think, anyway. It's probably affected by the surrounding functions, or I might just be confused. (It's 2:30 am, lol)

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    How do you use your Fe? In being emotional what value does that have? Do you sort of express your emotions all the time, or how doe it work for you?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    I believe bullying can be traced to cross relations.

    There is usually only one "bully" in a group. The rest follow the bully and become "bullies" themselves. However, they are not the sources of the action; cut them off from the "main bully", and they will moderate quickly.

    I was bullied a lot in HS. I have a lot of experience with them. Especially with the leaders, because I learned to trace their social networks back to the source. For example, the leader is always the first to speak. He's the first to say "yeah, let's get him!"

    Most of these kids were special ed students. When I say "special ed", I don't mean "disabled, paralegic, etc.", but children who were behaviorially challenged. They had difficulty following rules, even when there were good reasons to follow them. I remember their faces very well. I also remember how they responded on the days when I finally stood up to their leaders. They always abandoned the leader and he and I fought it out very breifly; it was always in a tightly controlled situation (like in the middle of a schoolday) that I finally blew up at them. The administration always sympathesized with me and I was unpunished for my momentary misconduct. In contrast, the other side was usually suspended.

    A type isn't just a facet; it's a method of relationships that reaches directly to the core of personality. Even assimilated values are interpreted and integrated into the person by their type functions. The type is the biological core of a person, and every single aspect of them that appears to other people is seen through it. EVERY aspect. Although relative to the individual who is made by the functions they may seem tumultuous and imprecise, to the people who see those functions at work they ALWAYS appear in PERFECT order.

    These kids had poor relations with other people besides me. There are complex cross-relations in existence that arrange the cross-typed individual into difficult relationship patterns with most of the population, especially members of the basic 16 types. It seems likely to me that if you are surrounded by people who always appear out to get you somehow, you'll adjust to their society rather poorly. And of course, you'll attack first and formost those who try to assume the characters which that society revers, even if its in non-seriousness. I had a vivid, detatched imagination as a child filled with archetypal heros and villians (Transformers, He-man, etc.), so it is no wonder that I was approached by and tormented by children who found my world alien.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I
    A type isn't just a facet; it's a method of relationships that reaches directly to the core of personality. Even assimilated values are interpreted and integrated into the person by their type functions. The type is the biological core of a person, and every single aspect of them that appears to other people is seen through it. EVERY aspect. Although relative to the individual who is made by the functions they may seem tumultuous and imprecise, to the people who see those functions at work they ALWAYS appear in PERFECT order.

    .

    Thank you TC. What happens if someone tries to CHANGE BY FORCE and NAGGING the nature and type of relationships you have with the world to suit their needs?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Okay, first I think a lot of good things have been said here. If someone were subjected to constant bullying and repression over a long period of time, I think the effects would be very similar to someone who had gone through the ordeal of brainwashing. Brainwashing techniques often employ a 'breaking down' of the victim which is what bullies also try to do.

    tcaudilllg: I think you put too much emphasis on so-called cross-types which more often than not you seem to think are defective in some way.
    Thank you Diana. What exactly happens in a "break down"? Why is it done?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    .

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    This is excellent Diana. What methods are used usually, it would sem to require huge levels of torture....
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ishysquishy
    A picture is worth a thousand words...
    Great work of art We need more art in the forums!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dioklecian
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I
    A type isn't just a facet; it's a method of relationships that reaches directly to the core of personality. Even assimilated values are interpreted and integrated into the person by their type functions. The type is the biological core of a person, and every single aspect of them that appears to other people is seen through it. EVERY aspect. Although relative to the individual who is made by the functions they may seem tumultuous and imprecise, to the people who see those functions at work they ALWAYS appear in PERFECT order.

    .

    Thank you TC. What happens if someone tries to CHANGE BY FORCE and NAGGING the nature and type of relationships you have with the world to suit their needs?
    Then there is a violent response by the victim. Invariably. Consciousness will not remain unsuppressed. Furthermore, relations are determined by perceptions between the parties. They are impossible to change because you need relations themselves to change them. They will cancel out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    tcaudilllg: I think you put too much emphasis on so-called cross-types which more often than not you seem to think are defective in some way.
    Well, that's only natural. They do bring my unconscious into polarity with my consciousness against my will, so of course I perceive them as somewhat dangerous.

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    Okay... I can't say I've been truly "bullied", though I've had girls want to kick my ass and I've been singled out and picked on by coworkers and employers. Sometimes it bothered me, but I was able to see that it was their insecurities that was causing their behavior.

    My advice to anyone being bullied is the following:

    1) The advice I give my son: "Remember, if someone is being mean it's because he's afraid of something. He's probably afraid that people will like you more than him. See if you can let him see that there's nothing to be afraid of. If he does something that hurts you, tell him that it hurts you and ask him to stop. If neither of those things works, try to ignore him. If he still tries to hurt you, tell the teacher." (of course, "tell the teacher" would be "file a complaint" or "contact an attorney" for adults)

    2) REMEMBER: We teach people how to treat us. This is especially apparent when you look at women in abusive relationships. I have helped a few leave their boyfriends/husbands only to see them hook up with someone else who treats them the same way. He's not the problem... she is. He treats her that way because she allows it... or perhaps even expects it. Change your mindset. Get out of the victim mentality.
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    Seriously, Joy, you can't keep passing off those who disagree with you as insecure.
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    who said anything about those who disagree with me?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Get out of the victim mentality.
    Excellent point. How?
    Well I am back. How's everyone? Don't have as much time now, but glad to see some of the old gang are still here.

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    It's all about self worth. It can only be changed through self reflection and decision. It's not easy. Using logic can help, too. At least for me, a thinker, it does. Maybe feelers would do better using something besides reasoning to help them put themselves into the right perspective.
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