Alpha and Beta Quadra Relationships

[Rubicon]

So I’m staying in a dorm situation as a temporary thing … and w00t – there seems to be a disproportionate number of Betas there for some reason. When I first arrived, this EIE lady, who seemed to be the self-appointed leader, started laying down the rules literally before I’d been in the room for ten seconds. She seemed taken aback by my easygoingness – like she was expecting resistance - and tried to get a reaction out of me by telling these horror stories about what went on in the place. I got the impression that she was exaggerating for effect, so they didn’t bother me much. Every so often she’d stop, and say she didn’t want to scare me … but that she thought I deserved to have the heads up. From my perspective, it seems like EIEs concentrate their energies on trying to get you sufficiently riled up, and when you're in the state they want you in, they skilfully direct your passion away from them and into channels they've already dug. Heh. :-p So anyway, she eventually wearied of trying to work me up, and remarked that I didn’t seem to be the type of person who stressed over things much. She said it with a smile, but seemed slightly annoyed. :-P

I’ve since come to the conclusion that she’s a bit nuts.. :0 I woke up the other day to her ranting about how some other girl in the room was a bitch etc … and naturally I assumed there was someone else in the room she was talking to, until it became apparent that she was talking to herself. :-/ It was all I could do not to lie there listening and laughing - because it was a rather eloquent speech with big words and metaphors and everything. But I sat up, and she seemed completely unembarrassed to find I was there … and said something about it being healthy to get things off her chest. Then she started going on about why she hated this other girl – stuff that seemed like conspiracy theory rubbish to me (she reckoned this girl was slowly cutting her way into her suitcase – ripping the stitching a little bit every day lol). Anyway, fortunately there’s this sane, IEI girl I get on well with … and we are like the room’s mediators lol – which mostly involves listening to the EIE and trying to calm her down. The IEI’s approach works better, because she listens with a serious face and tells her in a nice way not to be so paranoid … whereas I’m more “eh – I really don’t think anyone’s out to get you … just relax” which seems to have the opposite effect that I intend; she just redoubles her efforts to convince me that something’s wrong. So now I’ve taken to nodding and trying to sympathise. Meh.

The funny thing is that I’m not really bothered by the drama. The EIE would likely kill me if she found out that I find her scenes rather diverting. :0 There’s something about being around Betas that makes me even more carefree than I normally am. It feels to me that they exaggerate drama to the point where they suck all the seriousness that I would naturally feel about issues and take it for themselves. Things that I should be taking seriously take on this comically dramatic air and it just all feels like a big fictitious drama. I feel that the Betas care enough about the issues for me as well as them, so I don’t have to worry at all. Like they make me feel artificially safe about things. So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

[misutii]

LOL I like your writing!

Betas are all about the riling up of the masses, once, actually a few times now when I was with my ESE sister I'd purposefully blurt out as much sexist jokes as possible, and creatively work her into each one, but then end it off with a "I hope you don't think I'm being serious, really, I even took a feminist class in university" lol

and after this I'm always guaranteed to hear about what's on her mind (and don't worry she's a bright one and she always manages to get her little revenge) and in this way we're able to playfully kill time and have fun

Anyways it's a similar tactic that the EIE in your story uses I can tell because when I make a joke that I want my sister to respond with offense to and she doesn't take the bait I'm almost offended myself hahaha

[lefty]

Things that I should be taking seriously take on this comically dramatic air and it just all feels like a big fictitious drama. I feel that the Betas care enough about the issues for me as well as them, so I don’t have to worry at all. Like they make me feel artificially safe about things. So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

I've had some of these encounters...actually many of them with Alphas. My history with Alphas is, unfortunately, full of these kinds of things. I mean I don't talk to myself, but I do get obsessed with people at work and get too negativist as a substitute for being more well balanced. However...Apart from that I've been dramatic and inappropriate with Alphas and Alphas are much more sophisticated (can be) and much more self satisfying. I think they are super amazing to get to spend time with they totally blow my mind with their ideas, but I also do feel like when im with them im sort of living in their shadow. But I am not the most evolved or accomplished example of an NF.

[07490]

So I’m staying in a dorm situation as a temporary thing … and w00t – there seems to be a disproportionate number of Betas there for some reason. When I first arrived, this EIE lady, who seemed to be the self-appointed leader, started laying down the rules literally before I’d been in the room for ten seconds. She seemed taken aback by my easygoingness – like she was expecting resistance - and tried to get a reaction out of me by telling these horror stories about what went on in the place. I got the impression that she was exaggerating for effect, so they didn’t bother me much. Every so often she’d stop, and say she didn’t want to scare me … but that she thought I deserved to have the heads up. From my perspective, it seems like EIEs concentrate their energies on trying to get you sufficiently riled up, and when you're in the state they want you in, they skilfully direct your passion away from them and into channels they've already dug. Heh. :-p So anyway, she eventually wearied of trying to work me up, and remarked that I didn’t seem to be the type of person who stressed over things much. She said it with a smile, but seemed slightly annoyed. :-P

I’ve since come to the conclusion that she’s a bit nuts.. :0 I woke up the other day to her ranting about how some other girl in the room was a bitch etc … and naturally I assumed there was someone else in the room she was talking to, until it became apparent that she was talking to herself. :-/ It was all I could do not to lie there listening and laughing - because it was a rather eloquent speech with big words and metaphors and everything. But I sat up, and she seemed completely unembarrassed to find I was there … and said something about it being healthy to get things off her chest. Then she started going on about why she hated this other girl – stuff that seemed like conspiracy theory rubbish to me (she reckoned this girl was slowly cutting her way into her suitcase – ripping the stitching a little bit every day lol). Anyway, fortunately there’s this sane, IEI girl I get on well with … and we are like the room’s mediators lol – which mostly involves listening to the EIE and trying to calm her down. The IEI’s approach works better, because she listens with a serious face and tells her in a nice way not to be so paranoid … whereas I’m more “eh – I really don’t think anyone’s out to get you … just relax” which seems to have the opposite effect that I intend; she just redoubles her efforts to convince me that something’s wrong. So now I’ve taken to nodding and trying to sympathise. Meh.

The funny thing is that I’m not really bothered by the drama. The EIE would likely kill me if she found out that I find her scenes rather diverting. :0 There’s something about being around Betas that makes me even more carefree than I normally am. It feels to me that they exaggerate drama to the point where they suck all the seriousness that I would naturally feel about issues and take it for themselves. Things that I should be taking seriously take on this comically dramatic air and it just all feels like a big fictitious drama. I feel that the Betas care enough about the issues for me as well as them, so I don’t have to worry at all. Like they make me feel artificially safe about things. So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

I want another supervisor, You suck Jem.

[Rubicon]

I want another supervisor, You suck Jem.

I want another supervisee. I like you too much, numbers.

[07490]

The funny thing is that I’m not really bothered by the drama. The EIE would likely kill me if she found out that I find her scenes rather diverting. :0 There’s something about being around Betas that makes me even more carefree than I normally am. It feels to me that they exaggerate drama to the point where they suck all the seriousness that I would naturally feel about issues and take it for themselves. Things that I should be taking seriously take on this comically dramatic air and it just all feels like a big fictitious drama. I feel that the Betas care enough about the issues for me as well as them, so I don’t have to worry at all. Like they make me feel artificially safe about things. So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

Something about this part irrates me.

[Brilliand]

Something about this part irrates me.

Something she's right about or something she's wrong about?

I suspect that the Alpha-Beta interaction Jem describes is specific to ISFps and/or ENFjs... it may apply to ENTps and ISTjs as well, due to the supervisory relationship. However, in this description the Betas get the short end of the stick, whereas it would probably be the other way around with Alpha rationals and Beta irrationals.

[Rubicon]

Something about this part irrates me.

Well, I was really overgeneralising. :/ It was more a reaction to that specific lady and 2 other EIEs i know. I would take what they said seriously if I thought they were getting worked up about a legitimate issue ... but getting overly dramatic about something in order to manipulate just annoys me. It amuses me when no one is being sucked in by it.

[strrrng]

So I’m staying in a dorm situation as a temporary thing … and w00t – there seems to be a disproportionate number of Betas there for some reason. When I first arrived, this EIE lady, who seemed to be the self-appointed leader, started laying down the rules literally before I’d been in the room for ten seconds. She seemed taken aback by my easygoingness – like she was expecting resistance - and tried to get a reaction out of me by telling these horror stories about what went on in the place. I got the impression that she was exaggerating for effect, so they didn’t bother me much. Every so often she’d stop, and say she didn’t want to scare me … but that she thought I deserved to have the heads up. From my perspective, it seems like EIEs concentrate their energies on trying to get you sufficiently riled up, and when you're in the state they want you in, they skilfully direct your passion away from them and into channels they've already dug. Heh. :-p So anyway, she eventually wearied of trying to work me up, and remarked that I didn’t seem to be the type of person who stressed over things much. She said it with a smile, but seemed slightly annoyed. :-P

I think you're pretty much spot on with your interpretation. From my perspective, it seems as though she was introducing you to the formalities of the aristocracy, in a sense. Due to being ENFj, it was obviously presented in a more fervent manner. I think that drama is sometimes a beta's way of testing a newcomer, to see how much potential they harbor for "the cause" (beta NFs tend to immediately see this -- "what theme guides this person?" (Ni) "how much latent potential for activation do they harbor" (Fe)). In that kind of environment, I would expect it to mostly revolve around a competitive desire to "push" the other person -- again, to see "how they work" (latently), and resultantly, where they fit (explicitly).

It's interesting you say "the channels they've already dug," because I think that sort of exemplifies the aristocratic attitude. It's like a set of norms (in beta's case, a hierarchy based on internal processes) that you are being assessed by, and ultimately, consigned to.

I’ve since come to the conclusion that she’s a bit nuts.. :0 I woke up the other day to her ranting about how some other girl in the room was a bitch etc … and naturally I assumed there was someone else in the room she was talking to, until it became apparent that she was talking to herself. :-/ It was all I could do not to lie there listening and laughing - because it was a rather eloquent speech with big words and metaphors and everything. But I sat up, and she seemed completely unembarrassed to find I was there … and said something about it being healthy to get things off her chest. Then she started going on about why she hated this other girl – stuff that seemed like conspiracy theory rubbish to me (she reckoned this girl was slowly cutting her way into her suitcase – ripping the stitching a little bit every day lol). Anyway, fortunately there’s this sane, IEI girl I get on well with … and we are like the room’s mediators lol – which mostly involves listening to the EIE and trying to calm her down. The IEI’s approach works better, because she listens with a serious face and tells her in a nice way not to be so paranoid … whereas I’m more “eh – I really don’t think anyone’s out to get you … just relax” which seems to have the opposite effect that I intend; she just redoubles her efforts to convince me that something’s wrong. So now I’ve taken to nodding and trying to sympathise. Meh.

Hah. Never shoot down a beta NF's conspiracy theory about a person. Seriously, lol. Like I mentioned above, the processes are *all internal* So, when assessing a situation, person, etc., it takes on this archetypal feel, and inevitably turns into some grand drama. It's not just her venting about a person; it's her venting about the theme behind the person IMO. This is why I think we can seem overdramatic to Si-valuers specifically: because the focus on that single, abstract theme in a given situation (coupled with Fe), will seem disproportionate to the "real" circumstances. This is well and good, but to us, the theme still exists, so fuck off

The funny thing is that I’m not really bothered by the drama. The EIE would likely kill me if she found out that I find her scenes rather diverting. :0 There’s something about being around Betas that makes me even more carefree than I normally am. It feels to me that they exaggerate drama to the point where they suck all the seriousness that I would naturally feel about issues and take it for themselves. Things that I should be taking seriously take on this comically dramatic air and it just all feels like a big fictitious drama. I feel that the Betas care enough about the issues for me as well as them, so I don’t have to worry at all. Like they make me feel artificially safe about things. So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

Yeah. This pretty much refers to what I've described. I tend to get more resolute around alphas and deltas (gammas can be neutralizing or something), and they tend to get more carefree with that cycle.

Like, when my Fi-ENFp brother and I took a canoe/raft thing out in the ocean, I was basically treating it like the fucking perfect storm. I mean, the waves were pretty big, and it definitely took a lot of work to get it out and balance it. But more than anything, I was pissed at his little insouciant attitude. He just wanted to float by, enjoying the water; but I was telling him, "do something!" while he just laughed at me for "taking it too seriously." Shrug.

[Rubicon]

Hah. Never shoot down a beta NF's conspiracy theory about a person. Seriously, lol. Like I mentioned above, the processes are *all internal* So, when assessing a situation, person, etc., it takes on this archetypal feel, and inevitably turns into some grand drama. It's not just her venting about a person; it's her venting about the theme behind the person IMO. This is why I think we can seem overdramatic to Si-valuers specifically: because the focus on that single, abstract theme in a given situation (coupled with Fe), will seem disproportionate to the "real" circumstances. This is well and good, but to us, the theme still exists, so fuck off

Ah .. well, I'll remember that. I tend to just focus on the issue at hand (e.g. the suitcase), wondering how someone could perform a character assassination of a person based on something they may very well not have done. But perhaps the character assessment came first, and that's the issue they're actually trying to convey to me - the suitcase story just being the vehicle. I should try thinking more abstractly when it comes to relating with Beta NFs I guess. :-)

[redbaron]

So I was thinking that it would make sense for Alphas to have the opposite effect on Betas – that they feel we don't care enough about things - therefore they find themselves getting more dramatic about things than they normally would. So maybe that's why we can end up appearing like caricatures to each other. :-/

Yeah. I have an SEI and ESE friend that I regularly chat with and when I'm around them, they are light and it's okay for awhile but it always feels like their conversation is floating or something and I get bored, but when I get with another IEI or SLE, there's a weight to the conversation--not that it's super serious or anything but there's another element that resonates. I adore alphas, really. I'm married to one! But I feel like there's a level of intensity missing. I get the feeling that they love me, in smaller doses. (I mean the ones who really know me. I usually keep parts of the real me under wraps unless I feel said person can handle it). I don't show my drama much but on the inside of me, I can feel myself thinking that alphas don't care enough about things, deep down. Occasionally I'll try to get them excited about something or invested and they usually stand their ground with a grin, which makes them seem ambivalent. On the other hand, I've had thoughts that it might do me good to be more like them. That maybe I'm too intense, too invested. So anyway, I appreciate them. I don't walk around wishing everyone were just like me or anything.

[Banana Pancakes]

lol.

I have the same problem with my EIE and IEI friends taking things way too seriously.

The ISTj I supervised for a bit annoyed the living hell out of me though. Taking things too seriously plus aggressively stating how seriously they took everything is not a good combination.

[Wynch]

I think you're pretty much spot on with your interpretation. From my perspective, it seems as though she was introducing you to the formalities of the aristocracy, in a sense. Due to being ENFj, it was obviously presented in a more fervent manner. I think that drama is sometimes a beta's way of testing a newcomer, to see how much potential they harbor for "the cause" (beta NFs tend to immediately see this -- "what theme guides this person?" (Ni) "how much latent potential for activation do they harbor" (Fe)). In that kind of environment, I would expect it to mostly revolve around a competitive desire to "push" the other person -- again, to see "how they work" (latently), and resultantly, where they fit (explicitly).

Like, when my Fi-ENFp brother and I took a canoe/raft thing out in the ocean, I was basically treating it like the fucking perfect storm. I mean, the waves were pretty big, and it definitely took a lot of work to get it out and balance it. But more than anything, I was pissed at his little insouciant attitude. He just wanted to float by, enjoying the water; but I was telling him, "do something!" while he just laughed at me for "taking it too seriously." Shrug.

I can picture you doing this so clearly in my head that it makes me lmao.

This reminds me of the interaction between my ESE roomie and my IEI roomie. The IEI is always annoyed by the fact that the ESE simply does not get riled by anything. It comes out the most when they play video games because ESE takes everything so casually while IEI is very serious about winning. They're both pretty competitive, but ESE is more playful. They play Street Fighter IV where the IEI plays with Vega and the ESE plays with Zangief. The ESE loves to try to do grabs and throws and runs around the stage with his character's arms out while ESE says "HUGGGSSSSS, I WANT HUGGSSSSS." The IEI takes this in stride and while it doesn't erk him in the beginning, it definitely bothers him if the ESE wins when he's acting like this instead of playing more seriously.

[redbaron]

I can picture you doing this so clearly in my head that it makes me lmao.

This reminds me of the interaction between my ESE roomie and my IEI roomie. The IEI is always annoyed by the fact that the ESE simply does not get riled by anything. It comes out the most when they play video games because ESE takes everything so casually while IEI is very serious about winning. They're both pretty competitive, but ESE is more playful. They play Street Fighter IV where the IEI plays with Vega and the ESE plays with Zangief. The ESE loves to try to do grabs and throws and runs around the stage with his character's arms out while ESE says "HUGGGSSSSS, I WANT HUGGSSSSS." The IEI takes this in stride and while it doesn't erk him in the beginning, it definitely bothers him if the ESE wins when he's acting like this instead of playing more seriously.

[Mediator Kam]

I'd be like wow, how am I losing when he's fooling around

Anyway, betas are too intense for me, although that sounds stereotypical, it is true for me. When an ENFj smiles, it is a very forceful smile, and you can never joke with an ISTj and physics by jumping on his back and yelling "Inelastic collision!" Impossible.

[Banana Pancakes]

I'd be like wow, how am I losing when he's fooling around

Anyway, betas are too intense for me, although that sounds stereotypical, it is true for me. When an ENFj smiles, it is a very forceful smile, and you can never joke with an ISTj and physics by jumping on his back and yelling "Inelastic collision!" Impossible.

LOL a big boxxy heart for you.

[buckland]

I'd be like wow, how am I losing when he's fooling around

Anyway, betas are too intense for me, although that sounds stereotypical, it is true for me. When an ENFj smiles, it is a very forceful smile, and you can never joke with an ISTj and physics by jumping on his back and yelling "Inelastic collision!" Impossible.

Not sure how I would react to that either. Still, funny as hell.

Not sure where to place beta intensity though. Know this Sri Lankan EIE who is the poster-child activist. She has been going nuts on the current situation there, which fair enough is horrible, but at the same time I can never get riled up enough for her. Granted there is a more personal attachment for her, but beyond the fact that she is "racially" sri-lankan, she does not actually know anyone back there. It is just a cause she has attached to (among others), and if that ever clears up she will just find another to carry on with.

It just seems a very foreign way of thinking and living, because I am sure to some extent we all care about all the crap happening in the world, but it must be some kind of self-importance (meant in the purest sense of the term, rather than in a negative conotation) where she and maybe other betas believe they can really change that much out there. A bit of a messiah complex that disallows alpha-esque fun? Seems like I veered a bit off the main topic but I am quite interested in what people think about this.

[Andromeda]

Nah, I'm sure that she's just crazy. I don't think that creating drama, having paranoid ideation, and coming up with conspiracy theories are healthy behaviors, regardless of their types.

[Brilliand]

where she and maybe other betas believe they can really change that much out there.

A quarter of the world is Beta... they can change quite a bit.

[buckland]

A quarter of the world is Beta... they can change quite a bit.

I meant that on a more individual scale, where the betas I know have this conviction that they are meant to fix it all.

[Creepy-male]

http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...uifinal_Groups

I've been waiting for this thre-head all my li-yiif, oh lo-hord~

[unefille]

It just seems a very foreign way of thinking and living, because I am sure to some extent we all care about all the crap happening in the world, but it must be some kind of self-importance (meant in the purest sense of the term, rather than in a negative conotation) where she and maybe other betas believe they can really change that much out there. A bit of a messiah complex that disallows alpha-esque fun? Seems like I veered a bit off the main topic but I am quite interested in what people think about this.

I don't think it's 'self-importance' at all in the sense that 'I' am the one to make a difference (the only sense of that comes from seeing the inertia of other people), but rather why should I (or anyone else) not try to make make a difference? Things do change, people do make a difference (however small) and if I believe in something, I should follow through and attempt to realise my beliefs. It always confuses me that people say 'it's too bad - but what can I do about it?' Well...why CAN'T you be the one to do something about it? What's stopping you? What's the difference between you and people who do bring about change? Rather than having a degree of 'self-importance' or 'messiah-complex', I find it strange than people can 'care about world' and yet be so apathetic as to do nothing about it -- so it's more about an absolute dedication to a cause that compels.

[strrrng]

I don't think it's 'self-importance' at all in the sense that 'I' am the one to make a difference (the only sense of that comes from seeing the inertia of other people), but rather why should I (or anyone else) not try to make make a difference?

Yes. The circumstance doesn't matter (i.e. "they won't listen"), nor does anything else, really. It's very simple: if you have a belief that you feel strongly about, voice it; if you see an error that needs to be corrected, point it out. It's not about being nice or mean, compliant or refractory; it's just about standing up for what is real and right (to you, at least).

Things do change, people do make a difference (however small) and if I believe in something, I should follow through and attempt to realise my beliefs. It always confuses me that people say 'it's too bad - but what can I do about it?' Well...why CAN'T you be the one to do something about it? What's stopping you? What's the difference between you and people who do bring about change?

Yeah. It shouldn't even be the probability of a difference being made that impels a person to act; simply expressing what you know to be right is enough. And yeah, if one person does something, that can induce others to join in; so people, instead of placidly lamenting on how nothing can be done, should realize that if they band together, something can be done (i.e. 1997 Albanian proletariat insurgence against government and bourgeois -- in normal times, they [proletariat] would have appeared powerless, but solidarity and passion caused them to -take- power).

Rather than having a degree of 'self-importance' or 'messiah-complex', I find it strange than people can 'care about world' and yet be so apathetic as to do nothing about it -- so it's more about an absolute dedication to a cause that compels.

It's almost as if labeling those people as self-important or self-righteous or whatever, is a way to write them off, and reassure one's self of one's (lack of) actions. Again, it's very simple: if you really care about something, you protect it and fight for it. It's not blind devotion or anything; it's being certain of what you feel and believe. The same concept holds true for most things. If someone wants respect, they have to demand/take it; if they don't want their boundaries violated, they have to prevent it themselves, etc. Expecting things to work out, or consigning one's self to complaisance when they appear to be unable to, is weak IMO.

[buckland]

I don't think it's 'self-importance' at all in the sense that 'I' am the one to make a difference (the only sense of that comes from seeing the inertia of other people), but rather why should I (or anyone else) not try to make make a difference? Things do change, people do make a difference (however small) and if I believe in something, I should follow through and attempt to realise my beliefs. It always confuses me that people say 'it's too bad - but what can I do about it?' Well...why CAN'T you be the one to do something about it? What's stopping you? What's the difference between you and people who do bring about change? Rather than having a degree of 'self-importance' or 'messiah-complex', I find it strange than people can 'care about world' and yet be so apathetic as to do nothing about it -- so it's more about an absolute dedication to a cause that compels.

Can't really speak for others, but I know I get the feeling that the return never quite justifies the input. I completely understand what you're saying about doing something because you can, but at the same time there is this incredible futility about it. The number of campaigns and people walking down the streets is incredible and when it comes down to it, there really is no change happening (at least nothing appreciable, I mean look at Iraq). And that's what confuses me, that this does not seem to deter people. To get a change of the needed magnitude, you need a lot of people to get just as worked up as you are and that is close to impossible. I much prefer the concept of becoming a veggie because you hate the concept of killing animals, or living in the middle of nowhere to cut carbon emissions. Maybe that's why I am unable to intuitively understand this...