I read the following article, and wonder to which extent IxTp's relate to (parts of) it:
http://www.thebreeces.com/schizoid_a..._disorder.html
IxTp's: what are your thoughts on this?
I read the following article, and wonder to which extent IxTp's relate to (parts of) it:
http://www.thebreeces.com/schizoid_a..._disorder.html
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
First, I’ll answer your question:
The words "divide" or "separate" in the way a schizoid is defined here make it sound like a schizoid deliberately cuts him/herself off from other people, possibly because of an aversion to being around them. For me it's more like I do my own thing, and if that means I spend a day or two by myself or surrounded by other people, okay. And there are definitely times I truly desire [need?] to interact with people I care about. So no, I wouldn’t say I’m a schizoid.In other words, schizoids divide or separate themselves from people and social interactions.
-
Now for some whining of my own:
I found it unpleasant to read that article [I skimmed a lot of it]... something about her writing style bothers me. Especially at the beginning and then again at the end, it sounds like a bunch of whining. I don't like the way the word "oppression" is thrown around. Whenever I see that word used so liberally, my bs radar goes up. Ugh.
This makes it sound like she goes around advertising that he's schizoid. Otherwise, I have a hard time picturing people being extremely nervous around someone who "simply [chooses] a life of minimal social interaction." But maybe I am not quite understanding it all.Unfortunately, since "schizoid" has a similar prefix as schizophrenia, it can create extreme nervousness in meeting someone diagnosed "schizoid." For example, it may provoke feelings of misunderstanding, concern, and overall feeling uncomfortable. This reaction is not only hasty, but saddening since schizoids are individuals that simply choose a life of minimal social interaction.
Exactly. Just because you give an important-sounding name to a group of personality traits, doesn't make it a debilitating condition.... there are no significant implications that children with Schizoid Personality cannot live fulfilled lives as adults.
It's ironic that the author is saying how "schizoid is a personality, not a disorder," and at the same time she's calling for some sort of social service outreach to ensure that schizoids feel and are treated like normal people.
I read the article briefly, but I thought it would be worth pointing this out. Schizoid disorder is characterised by an emotional coldness, secretiveness, solitude and a general inability to form attachment to others.
What I would say first of all is the word disorder, which literally means a breakdown of where there was previously order. In a sense, schizoid as a disorder, would imply someone who never used to be like this to becoming like this. So what of people always like this? It is not really a disorder just a way of personality if you will. Heh, just a gripe with semantics.
In regards to me relating to this. I would have to say no, because I have a need to make strong and special connections with special few, and I value my friends and partner highly.
I would say to an extraverted Fe type, they could see me this way, so it is in that sense a subjective level of making a quick judgement.
Although to me, INTp's seem to fit this bill of possible schizoid even more than ISTp, but perhaps that is because they are more likely to have other things such as autism than an ISTp. And it should be noted that those with schizoid disorder, display for instance no signs of loss of reality in testing. But some INTp's do. (See Niffweed.)
To move on to more moderate form of this, there is something called schizothymia, were person has markedly eccentric and erratic thought, were person is regarded as quite normal, merely eccentric. Seems this could apply to many people
I should probably read the article in more depth I wanted to add, but I found myself skimming it because to me it seems like making a mountain out of molehill. I imagine there are people who are schizoids who are happy as they are. And I guess I wonder if an IXTp was a schizoid, how good some Fi types would be getting them to open up. I think probably not in the way they'd like or we see it, cause it is just how they are.
Hope some of this was of use consenting adult.
Last edited by Cyclops; 11-20-2008 at 02:45 PM.
I'm too way too tired to read it right now. But when I have read about the schizoid PD before, the main difference has been that schizoids lack interests. And I have many.
Actually I have read that spesific text before too, just don't remember accurately what was it's essential contains.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Thanks for your replies so far (although that doesn't mean I'm no longer interested in other POV's).
My own view of the account is that the guy in question indeed doesn't have a disorder, but simply holds many unusual views and interests (in the sense of not being mainstream) and acts withdrawn because often his views are not welcomed by other people. He also seems to be an 'extreme' case, but by no means with autistic tendencies.
@cyclops: you say that you don't relate. Do you mean by that you don't relate to the views on schizoid pesonality/PD, or that you do not relate to the guy's overall attitude (or perhaps both)?
@songsofsappho: yeah, her writing style is rather 'hyperactive' and dramatic, isn't it? I guess they were opposites on extreme ends of the social extraversion/introversion spectrum.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Check the sig. Officially diagnosed years ago. DSM fits me better than any socionics description available.
Ah I see you are back, or at least your pm system was offline '-)Originally Posted by consentingadult
Concerning the subject... I've been interested in SPD, I once became a member of such a forum. They actually had an MBTI test among the members. The outcome was something like:
INTJ 45%
INTP 40%
ISTJ 10%
ISTP 5%
To summarize, I totally relate to a whole lot of 'byproducts' of SPD, except for the main criteria, being a total loner.
Hey CA, if I have time later on I could try to go through certain parts of the text to say which relates to me and which parts don't, but to summarise, I would say I only relate to some of the things in a more general way. I generally keep myself to myself etc, but at same time I still enjoy being around and connecting with others, and I make an effort to do so, i'm not really a loner.
First impression: Wow, that is one idealistic young woman deeply infatuated with a person she's desperately trying to convince herself she's not trying to fix!
Second impression: Ah, I see that the two lovebirds didn't end up together. Somehow I would have guessed that ...
Seriously, though. I definitely fit the "schizoid" pattern when I was a kid, and how Michael is described up to high school sounds a lot like my childhood. It wasn't that I felt rejected by other kids - I just wasn't even aware of needing peer interaction, preferring to do things by myself. And it certainly wasn't a lack of parental attention - I think I mentioned in another thread how I have even early memories of feeling smothered by my Mom's need to nurture me.
I don't know why I started to turn that attitude/behavior around the last few years of HS, but even after I started socializing willingly, I still spent time deliberating why I should. I think it had something to do with having some really intelligent kindred souls reach out to me - reminds me of the part where Michael wishes he could talk to another person who feels like he does. Maybe it helped me "get over" that cloying teenage angst ("Why doesn't anyone understand me? How can I find a place in the world when it's all so fucked already? etc., ad nauseum).
Underneath it all, even though I rationally recognize that I'm far happier dealing with society at large and accepting the persistence of all the rest of humanity (dear lord are there a lot of you!), I still secretly wish I could live by myself out in the woods. Not that I'm angry at anybody, and again, not because I feel rejected by others. Just that the solitude appeals to me (the work required for a self-sustaining lifestyle is what queers the deal, I think).
As to his attitude about compromising to socialize, well, I think that's a harsh attitude. Isn't he the one who called society unevolved? I guess the way I've tackled trying to accept fitting into a less-introverted existence is to think of ways I could *develop* myself. I have to admit, I see a reflection of his attitude in my recent thread about having to give small talk during things like checking out at the grocery store! I must not be ready to see saying things like "How about this weather" as non-compromising ...
It's also interesting that a few (more than a couple) of posters have remarked on my willingness to reveal things about myself on the forum, including claims that as an ISTp, I should exhibit more Fe PoLR. I dunno. Maybe this is a "safe" experiment for me? I'm bored at work, I can type 80+WPM, and when a topic ignites some thought process, I can easily indulge it. It's interesting to see what kind of reactions I get to my posts about myself, and even if there are no responses, I still get to indulge memories far more interesting than twiddling my thumbs at my desk (and while I have got the whole of the internet available, I get burnt out on randomly surfing ...).
I laughed at how many ellipses Michael used in his response to his ex-fiance's essay. Also reminded me of me.
SLI
I can't read the whole passage as I am at work and well...that's really long. I looked this up via wiki:
My answer is no to all of them except 5. I don't really have friends. lol.DSM-IV-TR criteria
The DSM-IV-TR, a widely used manual for diagnosing mental disorders, defines schizoid personality disorder as:
A. A pervasive pattern of detachment from social relationships and a restricted range of expression of emotions in interpersonal settings, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by four (or more) of the following:
- neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
- almost always chooses solitary activities
- has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
- takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
- lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
- appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
- shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity
Well if I might add...
The DSM criteria are vague, you have to know how to interpretate them.
Like having low sexual interests... what does that mean... once a week, once a month?
same for the other criteria
What is more important to know about schizoid personality, is that these people have these quite distinctive characteristics, which aren't necessarily named in DSM
- very introverted, < 1% on a big five test
- daydreaming all day
- very high moral standards (=overly developed superego)
- can't show their anger, and keep it inside, with possibility of explosion
- often have a: false self / false persona / mask / as-if personality / roleplaying
- sometimes have depersonalisation
- intellectualism as a main defense mechanism
- make many errors in their work place, overlook details constantly
- have very low motivation, can lay on a couch for a whole day, never like to work
- all of them are underperformers at school
- all of them above average intelligent
- very private
- speach poverty, meaning answering a question like 'have you got children?' with:
'yes' instead of 'yes, I have two, their names are ....etc'
This results in a behaviour which is idle, boring, quite, trying not to be noticed,
evading social, unmotivated etc
Well I guess you get a better picture now.
They call it a a personality disorder because their Ego is nearly undeveloped, their Id nearly none existing, and their Superego in control.
Schizoid is sometimes also compared with the set of 'negative symptoms' of schizophrenia
So there's more to it, than just looking at the DSM.
lol, wtf. Those aren't people, they're droids. Someone like that can't really exist...I mean really. I've never seen someone like this....but then again, they're proboboly living in a cave somewhere.
I think I've met one, when on holiday with a group of strangers (sort of singles trip)
One guy went on a walk alone each day, the rest stayed with the group. Although he really made an effort to make friends, his speach was really boring and monotonous, he also left without saying goodbye, he just never wanted to get noticed. When in a disco, he just stood there. That's it.
Well he could certainly be a stereotype schizoid. He was very nice though, but boring as hell. A droid? Not really but I think you are on the right path with that idea...
Everyone else in our group also noticed him, that he was strange / different, most of us just ignored him, which made him a loner automatically, but that was fine with him in the end I guess.
lol
If he didn't want to be noticed or even put forth the effort to be social, why go on a singles trip?
That was my initial question too. But I guessed his purpose was to find a girlfriend.
Schizoids don't start conversations easely, so meeting a girlfriend in real life is nearly impossible for him. That's why a singles trip is a nice method to come in contact with single girls.
Altough he didn't reach his goal on this trip as far as I can remember.
It means schizoids have an average libido, but are more inclined to either not have sex or masturbate rather than participate in whatever 'social rituals' are involved in finding a sexual partner. Which, they most likely lack the 'know how' to do anyway.
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
My mom works at old peoples house. And there's one that's schizoid. And my mom tells this person pretty much doesn't do anything else except sits tapping the table, eats when she needs to and sleeps.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Fits the bill for a SLI!
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
if only this were true
and i totally agree with thisFor example, it would be helpful for them to come into contact with employment opportunities that would provide a social-free working environment, so when a schizoid chooses not to participate in "office chit-chat" he or she is not deemed weird or strange. Not only that, schizoids do not feel comfortable in such settings. There should be a list of jobs sectioned off in the classifieds under "working alone" professions.
They are out there, but it is difficult to research them. Most employment ads ask for "outgoing, social, talkative sellers."
INTp
sx/sp
Heh, call me sexist but in offices i've been in it is mainly the women who engage in the office social chit chat and much less so the guys.
I wonder if guys are more likely to be schizoids.
Yes schizoid prevalence among men is greater then women.
In total they are less then 1% of the human population according to most estimations.
Thanks for this post. I was really thinking "Jeez, people need to get a grip. Most of what we're talking about is just further down the introversion end of the spectrum than most - not truly unbalanced people necessarily." This list frames many of the traits so as to show how people diagnosed with this *are* less than fully functional. (And to clarify, in my previous post, I was responding not with the assumption that I have SPD, but merely according to the ways that I could see certain correlations - so don't think I was on the verge of proclaiming myself "disordered"
The speech poverty one is funny - I do notice I do this all the time. But I call it "close-ended response." If someone asks me an open-ended question, I am very likely to respond close-ended - both in the sense that I don't provide details and that I don't give the "And you?" For example, IRL if someone asks me if I was born here, I'll probably say "No" as opposed to "actually, I was born in New Orleans, and my family moved to Tennessee when I was just a few months old. Were you born here?"
I notice it drives some people nuts, but it's not meant to be rude. I just see it as throwaway small-talk, and I'd rather get to something more interesting. Including, if need be, silence.
Can't show anger / possible explosion was accurate when I was younger. I've instituted some coping strategies with mixed success. Certainly I don't feel like I'm in danger (any more) of blowing up on someone over a relatively minor transgression.
One of the things I really, really dislike about the whole personality disorder theme (at least in this country) is the overtone of "I can't help it, I was made dysfunctional, and everyone around me has to treat me special." I know there are a small number of cases where the person's brain is truly incapable of compensating for its differences to create behavior acceptable in normal social situations, but for most of us, it's just a bad excuse. It doesn't matter if it takes years of work, it's what everyone is doing for themselves. I'm 33 and I'm still figuring a lot of this shit out, but I don't think that makes me disordered. I think it's just where I am in my own journey.
Show me patience? Please. Treat me like I'm broken? Fuck you.
SLI
Although I'm not an IxTp, I fit a lot of these characteristics. In my opinion, these seem to fit well with the E5 type.
Okay, it seems like everyone who wanted to say something, did so. Thank you all for your input.
Although it was not my intension to focus on SPD (I should have been more clearer in that respect), the discussion offered good info for me.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
What was your intention?
To have more focus on the description (affect/behavior/attitudes) of the guy himself. I should have said something to the effect "do not focus too much on how it all relates to SPD".
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Good thread. Especially the part where I finally manage to make Phaedrus shut up
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
neither desires nor enjoys close relationships, including being part of a family
That applies to most kinds of relationships, except only really one kind of relationship. I'm not interested in being part of my family. I only see them like 3-4 times a year, and kinda find even that troublesome.
almost always chooses solitary activities
This applies too, but it's not really like that:
Most things that other people seem to do, I find to be: boring, annoying, unhealthy or just plain stupid. There are social activities that I find that could be interesting. But I don't know how I could get to the position that I could do them with other people. It would probably mean that then I would have to put up with lot of the afforementioned activity, so I could get to do the things I actually just wanted to do. Or it's just easier to choose solitary activities, because then I don't have to go some place and stuff, instead I can just start doing what I want to do without any extra trouble. Also I don't want to waste any money on activities.
has little, if any, interest in having sexual experiences with another person
This doesn't really apply. But there are people who have gotten the impression about me, that I'm this way. I guess this a question of how you look at it, if this one applies or not.
takes pleasure in few, if any, activities
I have many interests, and I'm interested in many kinds of activities. But on the other hand this one uses word "pleasure", I'm not sure if I feel much pleasure about them. I get pleasure from achieving something, winning and making money.
lacks close friends or confidants other than first-degree relatives
Yes. I have none.
appears indifferent to the praise or criticism of others
Yes. I'm indifferent about that. But I try to appear positive if I get praised, I just think that the person saying that is nice.
shows emotional coldness, detachment, or flattened affectivity
Yes.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
Shit, I thought this was a part of the SPD description you're quoting and I was like "OMG, I am totally Schizoid!"
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
Why have gotten diagnosis for it, or what has lead to you getting one? Has there been any gain from getting one?
Yeah that was just part of description of "being awesome" or "sucking at life"Shit, I thought this was a part of the SPD description you're quoting and I was like "OMG, I am totally Schizoid!"
Anyway I still don't think I'm schizoid, although there seems to be some similarities. And I think many of my problems are fixable, I just can't fix them myself. And because of nature of the problems, I can find someone to solve them either. So I'm like stuck on a desert island. So they aren't like chronic as it's with schizoids, more like acute.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
That's interesting. Do you think it would require the help of someone close, someone you could trust/rely on and felt comfortable sharing your problems with? Or do you think you could fix them by yourself with the proper guidance and interaction with someone who's strong and confident in your weak areas (e.g. by learning from them)?
“Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”
My unaccepting mother used to force me to go to a shrink on a regular basis when I was younger. The diagnosis came from there. I suppose I've 'gained' a better understanding of myself since learning of SPD.
Last edited by duality is cringe; 11-25-2008 at 10:23 PM.
Interesting!
One of the main causes (which isn't sure, but still...) is that SPD people have parents who haven't accepted them as a child the way they were.
On contrary, they've tried to dictate his/her behaviour in such a way, that the child takes on a role/false self, to keep being loved and accepted by their parents. Which is instinctively necessary for their survival.
Later on this false self, creates dissapointing relationships, which creates a loner. etc.
Ofcourse you also have to have some genetics to go through all this.
It's more like the second one, and also that the other person would simply do the stuff for me that I find difficult, if they are strong in that area and find it easy themself. And generally motivate. Certain people can influence me to become overall more sociable, I guess they manage to lower the playing field somehow. Unlike that Michael in the text, I was more sociable as kid than he is. But I think I was even more that way when I had ESTp and ESFp friend. And also if I had relationship(s) that would satisfy my needs, it's inself the solution of having poor skills in establishing one.
Regarding the first one. I'm not much into the talking about problems thing. I don't think it solves anything, at least in my case. If I present a problem it's usually that I want direct solution for it, like "I need a lift". I don't really want like emotional/pscyhological support. Which is why people in general talk about their problems, I suppose.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
every test on personality i am INTP. so i come out schizoid too as it's supposed to be the [disorder] that INTPs are prone to.
see my post on the first page.
of all schizoids:
INTJ 45%
INTP 40%
ISTJ 10%
ISTP 5%
remember, less then 1% of the world population is schizoid.
and read my bulletpoints somewhere in this topic, as a comparison when you are in doubt.
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