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Thread: ISFjs - more of a pushover than INFjs?

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    Default ISFjs - more of a pushover than INFjs?

    ISFj's can be like total pushovers at times. Definitely moreso than the INFj.
    A very simple quotation.
    I'm not going to get into explaining this, just tell what you think about the quote.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    no..
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    UDP, please stop! I don't know what it is. Maybe the avatar. It all just seems ridiculous.

    Ummmm....about the quote.
    I don't think either INFJs/ISFJs are push-overs. These are types who basically do everything according to their "system." They're not exactly "go with the flow" people. If you're talking about more physically assertive situations, maybe INFJs seem more weak. If you're talking about shooting around ideas in a meeting, maybe ISFJs seem more weak. I don't really see "pushover" though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    UDP, please stop! I don't know what it is. Maybe the avatar. It all just seems ridiculous
    This has nothing to do with you or anything on the forum.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    no..
    +1. Appropriate answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    This has nothing to do with you or anything on the forum.
    i didn't think that it does. my response had to do with infjs and isfjs in general.
    i asked you to "stop" b/c you're killing me over here. i dunno. maybe it's the avatar. it's like you're being a cartoon character.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    It's the common sense answer
    Mhm
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Maybe what UDP is referring to is the fact that an EII, with Se PoLR won't always realise when they're fighting a 'losing battle' and will persist, whilst the ESI will revise their position and back-down 'strategically' in line with assessing the 'conditions of battle' via their Se-creative. I do think sometimes EIIs persist where ESIs desist, but I don't think that should necessary be taken as the ESI being 'more of a pushover'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Maybe what UDP is referring to is the fact that an EII, with Se PoLR won't always realise when they're fighting a 'losing battle' and will persist, whilst the ESI will revise their position and back-down 'strategically' in line with assessing the 'conditions of battle' via their Se-creative. I do think sometimes EIIs persist where ESIs desist, but I don't think that should necessary be taken as the ESI being 'more of a pushover'.
    I think you mean, "Maybe what whoever wrote that quote is referring to..."? I don't think it's been made clear yet who wrote that, and I'm thinking the anonymity is intentional so as to focus on the content.

    Anyway, generally speaking, I wouldn't say that an ISFj is going to be more of a pushover than an INFj, though I think it would probably depend on the circumstances.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Maybe what UDP is referring to is the fact that an EII, with Se PoLR won't always realise when they're fighting a 'losing battle' and will persist, whilst the ESI will revise their position and back-down 'strategically' in line with assessing the 'conditions of battle' via their Se-creative. I do think sometimes EIIs persist where ESIs desist, but I don't think that should necessary be taken as the ESI being 'more of a pushover'.
    Oh I see what you mean. I am sort of oblivious to the idea of "losing battle," not so much bc i don't realize when I'm fighting a losing battle, but because i refuse to play into fighting tactics.
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    I fight losing battles all the time (and choose to) if I feel there's good reason behind it, but hell if I'm not trying to win 'em all. Most of the time there's not really much cause, so why would I bother putting energy struggling over something that doesn't matter to me?

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    Expat will always be LSE Delta to me though. But I get the concept.

    I don't think either type is necessarily a pushover. But I think it's safe to say that both of those types have a sort of nervous energy to them, that can be perceived as a weakness. Also whether a person is strong or weak or not varies so much in human relationships that I generally view the meaning obsolete. Especially because I've so easily been both the top dog and bottom of the barrel in social situations myself... for some pretty weird reasons.

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    I used to be a little bit of a push over when I was younger but that is a change I have noticed greatly in myself.

    As for which type might be more of a pushover... I would say ISFjs. I think an INFj might be less likely to give in to something they don't want to do whereas an ISFj might do it but not without some inward hostility. I would watch out, though, because after a while an ISFj might push back.

    Still, I think circumstances and other non-type related factors would better predict a person to be a pushover than type.
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    Neither type is by definition a pushover. ISFjs would be less likely to be pushovers because they have Se in the ego block and therefore are better at handling confrontation when it comes up.
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    .

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    Congrats, Diana!!!!
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    regarding the ESIs and EIIs I know, the EIIs are more likely to give in, without *visible* retaliation. but do not underestimate the other forms of retaliation that exist such as, my favorite, *the silent treatment*. ESIs are more likely to be confrontational about it, yes. but INFjs have their own ways of getting their way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Maybe what UDP is referring to...

    Actually, what this thread was about is that someone who, imo, doesn't understand socionics properly, said the quote in the original post. I was going to use this thread as a means to show various opinions on the matter.

    I wasn't implying anything myself about the original quote, what it meant, or whether it was true or false.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    I think you mean, "Maybe what whoever wrote that quote is referring to..."? I don't think it's been made clear yet who wrote that, and I'm thinking the anonymity is intentional so as to focus on the content.
    That's correct
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    From my experience, INFjs and ISFps are the pushovers, not ISFjs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by B&D
    Expat will always be LSE Delta to me though. But I get the concept.
    lol

    I don't think either type is necessarily a pushover. But I think it's safe to say that both of those types have a sort of nervous energy to them, that can be perceived as a weakness. Also whether a person is strong or weak or not varies so much in human relationships that I generally view the meaning obsolete. Especially because I've so easily been both the top dog and bottom of the barrel in social situations myself... for some pretty weird reasons.
    I don't think either type is necessarily a pushover either -- meaning that it's function-related (cmon lol). I haven't met many ISFjs, but the ones I did were by no means pushovers. I have met a fair number of INFj pushovers, but most of these people were enneagram 9's, which influences it much more than having "weak Se" lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    From my experience, INFjs and ISFps are the pushovers, not ISFjs.
    Well, these are the sociotypes that I have most frequently seen be Enneagram 9s. Average to unhealthy 9s will often exhibit "pushover" kinda behavior as a way to not disrupt the flow. You gotta watch out though, because this can turn manipulative on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Well, these are the sociotypes that I have most frequently seen be Enneagram 9s. Average to unhealthy 9s will often exhibit "pushover" kinda behavior as a way to not disrupt the flow. You gotta watch out though, because this can turn manipulative on you.
    Yeah, those passive-aggressive fuckers will get you when you're least expecting it. ugh.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Yeah, those passive-aggressive fuckers will get you when you're least expecting it. ugh.
    EXACTLY. (they are the types of my mom (INFj) and dad (ISFp) as well as another couple I know)
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    Well, these are the sociotypes that I have most frequently seen be Enneagram 9s. Average to unhealthy 9s will often exhibit "pushover" kinda behavior as a way to not disrupt the flow. You gotta watch out though, because this can turn manipulative on you.
    Who's doing the manipulating; me or them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Over here, we'll put up with (almost) all of your crap. You just have to use the secret phrase: "I don't value it. It's related to <insert random element here>, which is not in my quadra."
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Director Abbie View Post
    Who's doing the manipulating; me or them?
    them. in subtle underhanded ways.
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    I'm not a pushover. I like to do what I can to help people and all that, but I have lines and limits and I always stand firm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    them. in subtle underhanded ways.
    ...that are not always immediately apparent to the manipulating party. Sometimes as people withdraw in attempt to avoid conflict, as in the case with 9s, or in seeking the solace of their inner world, like 4s, they can draw people into those things without knowing it.

    I don't mean to suggest that this kinda thing is necessarily rampant among or limited to withdrawn types, but it is certainly visible in them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JRiddy View Post
    ...that are not always immediately apparent to the manipulating party. Sometimes as people withdraw in attempt to avoid conflict, as in the case with 9s, or in seeking the solace of their inner world, like 4s, they can draw people into those things without knowing it.
    I think the 9's manipulation is more activity-based, attempting to re-balance things. The 4's manipulation is more emotional, driven by a desire for attention. And I'd say people know what they're doing most of the time -- whether they'll admit it to themselves or not.

    I don't mean to suggest that this kinda thing is necessarily rampant among or limited to withdrawn types, but it is certainly visible in them.
    How would it apply to 5's? They're the last people to care about attention or harmony. I suppose they could do it in some attempt to prove their "expertise" or generate some feeling of control over the external world.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think the 9's manipulation is more activity-based, attempting to re-balance things. The 4's manipulation is more emotional, driven by a desire for attention. And I'd say people know what they're doing most of the time -- whether they'll admit it to themselves or not.
    Well, yeah. I would say that people know what they're doing, but may not see (or admit to themselves) that it is manipulative.

    How would it apply to 5's? They're the last people to care about attention or harmony. I suppose they could do it in some attempt to prove their "expertise" or generate some feeling of control over the external world.
    Well, the whole approach of 5s offering their thoughts or "expertise" to the world is, in essence, manipulative. And I guess it's kinda like you suggested. But the kinda manipulativeness I was talking about before really tends to occur in the context of closer relationships, and I haven't had a lot of experience being close to 5s. So I dunno.

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    From a purely "socionical" point of view - so, I'm not going to mix my personal observations with it - it's not an easy comparison: while lacking in Se might result in less of a tendency to steamroll over situations, INFjs are positivists and ISFjs are negativist IJ's, thus the latter is more likely to consider the negative consequences of straying from one's duty, whereas the former might be less inclined to do so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    UDP, please stop! I don't know what it is. Maybe the avatar. It all just seems ridiculous.
    This is your Fe picking up on a stubborn Ti type being a fake idiot.

    Welcome to Beta.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    This is your Fe picking up on a stubborn Ti type being a fake idiot.

    Welcome to Beta.
    lol. what?
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