Popular Culture in North Americaand Quadra

[kensi]

Which Quadra do you think is most succesfull in getting their point across in North American Culture ?

Edit: in North American Pop. Culture (say the 15 to 40 year old range as a whole...and not beyond )

and yes, i mean that style which is marketed by the media (politics, religion and other institutional dogmas not included)....and not the "behind closed doors" type of pop culture as obviously it ain't got no pop to it.

[JuJu]

The following is, of course, an over-generalization... However, the question necessitates it.

In the US, pop culture is GENERALLY geared toward the youth demographic--the coveted 18-34 demo (and younger.) Its focus is Alpha/Beta.

Deltas and Gammas, however, occupy a lot of the higher rungs in US society/culture--banking, law, politics, etc--and increasingly so with age.... Often they are thought of as good people with good hearts, and thus advance.

Perhaps needless to say--in the US, all types occupy various positions in pop and 'high' culture.

It's important to remember when discussing the US that it's huge--and highly regional... For example--very generally speaking--different traits (perhaps even types) are valued in, say, Alabama and Massachusetts.

[Rick]

It's important to remember when discussing the US that it's huge--and highly regional... For example--very generally speaking--different traits (perhaps even types) are valued in, say, Alabama and Massachusetts.

Or Utah, lol.

[kensi]

JuJu------------

The following is, of course, an over-generalization... However, the question necessitates it.

In the US, pop culture is GENERALLY geared toward the youth demographic--the coveted 18-34 demo (and younger.) Its focus is Alpha/Beta. ---->I agree

Deltas and Gammas, however, occupy a lot of the higher rungs in US society/culture--banking, law, politics, etc--and increasingly so with age.... Often they are thought of as good people with good hearts, and thus advance.---->I'm not so sure you can count Betas(Obama) and Alphas out of it....success early can facilitate cuccess later on.................i, of course, didn't mean it to be anything other than a pop culture question. I think that the later-on-in-life component is a little harder to gage.

Perhaps needless to say--in the US, all types occupy various positions in pop and 'high' culture.

It's important to remember when discussing the US that it's huge--and highly regional... For example--very generally speaking--different traits (perhaps even types) are valued in, say, Alabama and Massachusetts---->this is a very good point.



---->but i think you have to admit that certain regions within the U.S. have a higher impact on Pop Culture (the L.A's, the Las Vegas', the New Yorks)................i was very surprised to see 2 of the 1st 3 answers as Deltas.


---->personally i think that Beta has quite a big lead in the 15-35 age group and nowadays, i think, you can easily stretch that to 40.....i also actually think that Gamma is in a lot of ways slightly ahead of Alpha....thats just the feel i get.

[JuJu]

[COLOR=#2e8b57]---->I'm not so sure you can count Betas(Obama) and Alphas out of it....success early can facilitate cuccess later on.................i, of course, didn't mean it to be anything other than a pop culture question. I think that the later-on-in-life component is a little harder to gage.

As to counting Alphas and Betas "out of it" in American 'high' culture--that is silly, as my post above connotes. What you call "the later-in-life component" is not, however, "harder to gage."

If you're really interested in this, I suggest watching America's 'high culture' TV shows--Meet the Press, (Delta,) CBS Sunday Morning, (Delta,) 60 Minutes, (Gamma/Delta,) etc... And I think you'll notice the trend about which I write... Same if you ever work on--or even walk around--Wall Street, or most places in American banking/law/prominent bureaucracies... The culture is--again, very generally; (just as generally as American pop culture can be called Alpha/Beta)--Gamma/Delta. I write this having grown up in that culture.

If you're watching American TV/reading tabloids--that's where I presume you're coming from with this poll--you see a lot of Betas... In Daytime TV, for example, Jerry Springer is 100% beta--the host and most of his guests... The Real World on MTV is usually stocked with Betas... Lohan, Aniston, and Spears--the celebrities that sell tabloids--are frequently Alpha/Beta.

If you think that's all American pop culture is though, you're wrong.

Look closely and you'll find American pop culture catering to every quadra. For example, David Letterman and Ellen Degeneres--two of the country's most beloved/popular talk show hosts--are Delta... America's favorite sports hero, Brett Favre, is Delta. (Tom Brady is also Delta.) CSI: Miami has an almost all Gamma cast and is Gamma-themed... The Tonight Show, and the current cast of Saturday Night Live are Alpha-themed.

In other words, it's very difficult to generalize about American pop culture. As I wrote in the first post, "Perhaps needless to say--in the US, all types occupy various positions in pop and 'high' culture."

but i think you have to admit that certain regions within the U.S. have a higher impact on Pop Culture (the L.A's, the Las Vegas', the New Yorks)

The three cities with the most influence on American pop culture are New York, L.A. and D.C. However, there are other cities with national influence--sometimes for specific cultural reasons--they include: San Francisco, Chicago, Boston, Las Vegas, Atlanta, the cities in Texas, etc.

---->personally i think that Beta has quite a big lead in the 15-35 age group and nowadays, i think, you can easily stretch that to 40.....i also actually think that Gamma is in a lot of ways slightly ahead of Alpha....thats just the feel i get.

I think your perception about Beta having "a big lead" is off-base--along with your other perceptions.... If all the American pop culture you're getting in Canada is daytime TV, however, I can understand why you would think that.

[crazedrat]

It really depends on which aspect of culture comes to mind as you vote. Culture is multi-faceted

[strrrng]

Deltas and Gammas, however, occupy a lot of the higher rungs in US society/culture--banking, law, politics, etc--and increasingly so with age.... Often they are thought of as good people with good hearts, and thus advance.

I think you're right about the deltas (fuckers run the military bureacracy), but not so sure about the gammas (especially since they're sooo rare ). It seems that most collective units ineluctably turn delta. I think the way residential neighborhoods are run illustrates this nicely. The neighborhood I used to live in had a section far large houses, one for nice townhouses, then lower end townhouses. It started out pretty beta, with a general order, but there weren't any implicit rules, and people stuck to their respective groups. It was fun because there were fights on the basketball court weekly and we could play football without having some douchebag harass us about safety. Soon enough, the ESTj cops come rolling through daily (drug dealing problems) and the neighborhood took a new layout, which rendered it more consistent and safe, but stifling. They sort of "weeded out da nigz" in a way, trying to get rid of all the low-income housing so that they could keep the social scene and money flowing smoothly. So, the transition to my new neighborhood wasn't a surprise at all. It's a bunch of flaming deltas (1 beta/gamma for every 5 alpha/delta) who think they're the shit because their kids are the best on the soccer team or they are on the neighborhood committee. It all has a righteous air to it, so I stay away from them, generally.

[crazedrat]

Beta organizes a system out of the apathy of the universe, geared toward maintaining a specific state of well being. Deltas are interested primarily in destroying these sorts of social orders; and to return them to natural living. What occurs is a conflict between Beta & Delta; which represents a struggle between the existing social order & chaos. That is at least the metaphysics of it.

[strrrng]

Beta organizes a system out of the apathy of the universe, geared toward maintaining a specific state of well being. Deltas are interested primarily in destroying these sorts of social orders; and to return them to natural living. What occurs is a conflict between Beta & Delta; which represents a struggle between the existing social order & chaos.

What do you mean by 'apathy of the universe'? I agree that betas want a more static state of being, i.e. having a Ti structure implemented with Se, where the only continuous thing is the collective harmony (Fe). But I've never know deltas to destroy social orders; if anything, that is beta. Betas eradicate things based on Ni "visions" of what should be and Ti principles extrapolated from said thing. Then comes the Se...lol. Deltas seem to want to take in a system and keep it running as consistently as possible, with little upheaval or 'chaos', as you put it. Such a tendency can even be witnessed in delta environments. When they're doing their Si flow thing, or making weird, implicit Fi jokes, I just want to shake them up, and jolt them out of their dumb safety net (as I view it). Chaos seems beta>delta to me.

[crazedrat]

Beta reforms them into a new social order; Delta degrades the social order into chaos. That is more of what I was getting at. The particular way you use the word destroy / reform is up to you. The important words are chaos and order.
And I agree Delta has a tendency to pick and choose which social orders they reject (which is the tendency to restore chaos which I am alluding to). The people themselves are more complicated than the metaphysics of their quadra

[strrrng]

Beta reforms them into a new social order; Delta degrades the social order into chaos. That is more of what I was getting at. The particular way you use the word destroy / reform is up to you. The important words are chaos and order

Yeah, but I think the beta process typically starts with some uprooting, then a strong order being implemented. Delta seems to gradually gather forces and whatnot, continually building a homeostasis of sorts. I really don't see how deltas are the types to degrade social order into chaos.

[crazedrat]

By not participating in them. Like school for example, or taking care of children, or holding out a job. Unless it interests them, they will not participate in it. They don't do it 'just for the social order', or 'because it agrees with the logical structure of the circumstances'. If they do it, it's because it fits into their ultimate goal of enjoying themselves; long term or short term.
I do agree Betas are primarily interested in uprooting the order at hand in favor of establishing one defined by their personal values.
It's kind of an arbitrary difference between the two quadras, if you really think about it. One is to the world as one is to the self

[strrrng]

By not participating in them. Like school for example, or taking care of children, or holding out a job. Unless it interests them, they will not participate in it. They don't do it 'just for the social order', or 'because it agrees with the logical structure of the circumstances'. If they do it, it's because it fits into their ultimate goal of enjoying themselves; long term or short term.

So would you attribute this to the more self-contained focus of FiSi? I mean, I've known deltas to be pretty dutiful, and uphold their role in the community even at the expense of personal wishes (instinct stacking and e-type play a role here, too). I agree that they won't abide by systems for the sake of maintaining order, or just willfully do things do be 'strong', but the insouciance and desire to just enjoy one's self sounds more like the alphas SiFe values. Lazy fucks. But yeah, I agree, on the whole.

I do agree Betas are primarily interested in uprooting the order at hand in favor of establishing one defined by their personal values.
It's kind of an arbitrary difference between the two quadras, if you really think about it. One is to the world as one is to the self

Yeah, pretty much.

[crazedrat]

With Delta there may also be a tendency to feign compliance in certain situations which are out of their control; but I imagine they would still experience internal dissonance. I might be wrong, though. We'd have to ask one. It's hard to get a relevant answer out of a Si type though, they never seem to get the question right.

[strrrng]

With Delta there may also be a tendency to feign compliance in certain situations which are out of their control; but I imagine they would still experience internal dissonance. I might be wrong, though. We'd have to ask one. It's hard to get a relevant answer out of a Si type though, they never seem to get the question right.

I could see this happening, but I'm not sure such a trait can be universally applied to a specific quadra. I think a Ti-ISTj 1w9 so/sp would do that, as they would feel obliged to be 'right' and act for the greater good. Deltas do seem to have a more martyr-like moralistic streak to them, although they never express it overtly (which, I suppose, adds to the nobility of it), so I guess this trait would make sense for them. If they could not find a way to leverage a situation without applying force (Se), and since they dislike more effusive emotional displays (Fe), it definitely seems plausible that they would endure with a quiet grimace.

Come to think of it, holy fuck. They DO do this -- in sports, specifically. Like my ENFp brother. Instead of just stepping his bitch ass up when someone pressures him, he takes this half-ass complacent attitude and just goes through the motions. Man, it seems like deltas just hate any situation that requires competition if it doesn't also have some personal feeling of enjoyment in it. It's like everything will be all dandy, with the Si continuum being maintained, and everyone will be smiling with hearts of Fi, then BOOM, in comes a little Se and nobody knows what to do. Betas may also endure while feeling internal dissonance, but it would be in a more goal-oriented, 'just do it' way; not 'this makes me feel bad, but ok' passive-aggressive way.

[crazedrat]

yeah exactly. i see it in my ESTj-Te brother in law all the time, too. Like... sister says 'can you watch our kid while i get some studying done?'
ESTj-Te says '......(some kind of moan/complaint), fine (as if it's such a bother)'
proceeds to let the kid run all over the house and tear shit up while he plays video games.
Happens every day.
lol

[strrrng]

yeah exactly. i see it in my ESTj-Te brother in law all the time, too. Like... sister says 'can you watch our kid while i get some studying done?'
ESTj-Te says '......(some kind of moan/complaint), fine (as if it's such a bother)'
proceeds to let the kid run all over the house and tear shit up while he plays video games.
Happens every day.
lol

Yeah lol, that's basically identical to my Fi-INFj 9w1 stepmom. She literally acquiesces to every desire of other people, in a somewhat co-dependent manner, thinking that by maintaining good terms with everyone else, she is doing the 'right' thing or increasing her own happiness. But it's always forced, and the passive-aggressive tension comes out. I think, "Just say it if you don't want to do something! There is such thing as a 'you'."

[kensi]

As to counting Alphas and Betas "out of it" in American 'high' culture--that is silly, as my post above connotes. What you call "the later-in-life component" is not, however, "harder to gage."
.

Hey JuJu,

I'm not sure...
What is silly (not clear here)......you mean you don't find Alphas and Betas in cultural establishments in the latter years or something else all together ??

[kensi]

If you're really interested in this, I suggest watching America's 'high culture' TV shows--Meet the Press, (Delta,) CBS Sunday Morning, (Delta,) 60 Minutes, (Gamma/Delta,) etc... And I think you'll notice the trend about which I write... Same if you ever work on--or even walk around--Wall Street, or most places in American banking/law/prominent bureaucracies... The culture is--again, very generally; (just as generally as American pop culture can be called Alpha/Beta)--Gamma/Delta. I write this having grown up in that culture.

If you're watching American TV/reading tabloids--that's where I presume you're coming from with this poll--you see a lot of Betas... In Daytime TV, for example, Jerry Springer is 100% beta--the host and most of his guests... The Real World on MTV is usually stocked with Betas... Lohan, Aniston, and Spears--the celebrities that sell tabloids--are frequently Alpha/Beta.
.

1st paragraph: i was hoping we would stay away from this high culture and the older ages and their representation with my question.

2nd: yes, it is the communication of this pop culture mostly that i am refering to....(and particularilly the below 40 age group and in some cases well below 40 as is the ages of a lot of the forum members)

[kensi]

I think your perception about Beta having "a big lead" is off-base--along with your other perceptions.... If all the American pop culture you're getting in Canada is daytime TV, however, I can understand why you would think that.

Your entitled to your opinion on this issue. What are all these "other perceptions" (that you hide)..... thats what i wanna get outa ya!.......imo

[kensi]

Look closely and you'll find American pop culture catering to every quadra. For example, David Letterman and Ellen Degeneres--two of the country's most beloved/popular talk show hosts--are Delta... America's favorite sports hero, Brett Favre, is Delta. (Tom Brady is also Delta.) CSI: Miami has an almost all Gamma cast and is Gamma-themed... The Tonight Show, and the current cast of Saturday Night Live are Alpha-themed.

.

First...i'm not convinced that either of these are deltas. With Ellen, because of who she is, i'm not even going to go there.

Secondly, i dont think that these two people have that big of an impact on the 15 to 30 year olds. (thats just an estimate though)

thirdly, i don't think that any one idividual's actual type has that much to do with pop culture as does how that type exerts itself in the mass media....and this is what i mean by culture.....the conditioning that one employs to communicate and how certain things are" in "and others "out" ....and not by way of type-in-itself but the concept of what type strategy "is in" in the collective consciousness of the media. (eg. some gamma types may choose to act as beta for a given environment of collective consciousness)

Obviously this is hard to communicate with a simple poll question.

Anyways....Peace, bro!

[strrrng]

First...i'm not convinced that either of these are deltas. With Ellen, because of who she is, i'm not even going to go there.

Actually, he's completely right. Ellen is Ne-ENTp 7w6 so/sx, Letterman is Te-ISTp (prolly 6w5 sp/so). Brett Favre is some Fi-sub delta NF, probably 9w1, and tom brady is an ENFp 3w4. He's also correct about CSI: Miami. David Caruso is an Ni-INTp both irl and on the show; the character Callie is Ni-INTp on the show, some Pi-IxTp irl; alex rodriguez is Se-ESFp irl and some Fi-sub gamma SF on the show; and the attractive, hispanic chick is most likely an Fi-ISFj on the show.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Also, the four beta types all aim for social change in different ways:

IEI: They advocate for social change mostly through writing.
SLE: They advocate for social change mostly by challenging authority figures directly, and keeping them on their toes. (Ashton described feeling guarded around some Betas. This is probably what he meant.)
EIE: They advocate for social change mostly by acting and entertaining.
LSI: They advocate for social change mostly by ....

Okay I'm drawing a blank here because I don't really know any LSIs. A little help here?

[strrrng]

Also, the four beta types all aim for social change in different ways:

IEI: They advocate for social change mostly through writing.

I guess...just subtle means of abstract/emotional communication.

SLE: They advocate for social change mostly by challenging authority figures directly, and keeping them on their toes. (Ashton described feeling guarded around some Betas. This is probably what he meant.)

This sounds decent, but I'm willing to bet Ashton was referring more towards the Fe dynamic rather than Se pressure or something.

EIE: They advocate for social change mostly by acting and entertaining.

Inciting emotional reactions in others to unify.

LSI: They advocate for social change mostly by ....

Okay I'm drawing a blank here because I don't really know any LSIs. A little help here?

Developing systematic plans/ideas that can be implemented.

[iAnnAu]

Originally Posted by crazedrat
yeah exactly. i see it in my ESTj-Te brother in law all the time, too. Like... sister says 'can you watch our kid while i get some studying done?'
ESTj-Te says '......(some kind of moan/complaint), fine (as if it's such a bother)'
proceeds to let the kid run all over the house and tear shit up while he plays video games.
Happens every day.
lol

Yeah lol, that's basically identical to my Fi-INFj 9w1 stepmom. She literally acquiesces to every desire of other people, in a somewhat co-dependent manner, thinking that by maintaining good terms with everyone else, she is doing the 'right' thing or increasing her own happiness. But it's always forced, and the passive-aggressive tension comes out. I think, "Just say it if you don't want to do something! There is such thing as a 'you'."

OR ...
it could just be that these two examples consist of immature behavior that isn't type or quadra related. I agree that that sounds passive-aggressive, but I can't agree with the attachment of that disorder to the Delta quadra (my personal identification as one notwithstanding, of course )