ISTp-ENFp conversation last night

[meatburger]

I drove my ISTp friend to a team dinner. He just got back from a trip around Europe (lucky bastard) and was good catching up with him. At about 11:30pm he asked if i wanted to have a beer and we ended up talking till about 4:30am haha.

One thing we talked about was Religeon. His family is very religous and he feels very split because he doesn't believe in god but has also seen how happy it has made his family. He talked about how he is interested in how christianity has shaped history such as wars and the institution of marriage, but also how it has shaped good things such as our ethics and values etc.

We also talked about conspiracy theories. He believes 911 was orchestrated. I disagreed so we talked about that in depth. I suggested that while individual points may be in question such as building 7 falling down or whatever, i said that on the whole i didn't think the whole conspiracy worked . Also we talked about how information can be manipulated and how these conspiracy websites are typically linked to other conspiracies which are unlikely. Another ISTp friend i have also believes in the 9/11 deal.

We talked about the environment and global warming, and he believes that it is not really caused by humans. I said i think that the general scientific concensus these days is that it is definately caused by humans. I said that even though i am talking about saving the environment though, i dont do anything about it. Therin lies the problem, even i am too much of a consumer / asshole to change and i would like to think im probablly more caring than many lol. I said that one day in 60 years our grandkids will ask what a cheetah is and we will say they are something that used to exist once. We talked about environmental hegemony (keeping a combination of power / consent) over people to influence change etc.

We talked about peak oil and how reading all those websites scares the urine out of me. Again though its very hard to see the whole truth of the situation (if opec are doctoring their reports etc). Its also possible that new sciences will get hard to reach oil or oil shale will be viable etc etc.

Then his crazy room mate came out and was talking about how "The mark of the beast" suggests that at the end of the world everyone will be marked / identified or something like that. He said that microchips are likely to be implanted in our hands etc to use as tracking / identification / using money. I agree this is possibly the way the world / technology is going. He suggested that when this type of control eventually occurs the christians will have to resist or they may burn in hell (resist the mark of satans control). Interesting theory.

Anyway this is probablly boring as hell to anyone reading this. I feel like ass because he smokes and i smoked quite a few cigarettes and my head hurts now because i dont smoke

The most amazing thing that i noticed though is that while talking about our conflicting viewpoints we didn't argue even once. It was simply a civil exchange of information and there just didn't seem to be any angst there. I think that is a strong indicator of duality, that kind of acceptance.

[Minde]

I found it interesting. I have found that with people who more deeply understand and accept and trust each other, they can disagree or have different opinions without it involving anger or leading to division.

Anyway, I enjoyed reading that.

[munenori2]

The most amazing thing that i noticed though is that while talking about our conflicting viewpoints we didn't argue even once. It was simply a civil exchange of information and there just didn't seem to be any angst there.

The content of your convo and this last bit remind me a whole hell of a lot of how my ISTp former roomie and I used to discuss things when it was just the two of us living together. I miss those talks.

[Elro]

I said that one day in 60 years our grandkids will ask what a cheetah is and we will say they are something that used to exist once.

You could point to one of these, too:

Doubt that will be going anywhere anytime soon.

[meatburger]

You could point to one of these, too:

Doubt that will be going anywhere anytime soon.

god i hope not man. If cheetos go extinct its game over

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I like it when you can discuss things with friends. It can be intellectually stimulating. Different viewpoints are fun, when handled maturely and talked through. I think this is useful for ENFp's also because it helps their weak T with concise information from someone strong in Te. And vica versa for the Strong Te person to exercise their Te and also hear some new possibilities from an Ne perspective.

Even if not Delta it's still a good way to learn (when done maturely)

[Slacker]

Ha. My husband believes the 9/11 conspiracy theories too. Dunno if it's type related or just a coincidence. It might be at least partially type related because he doesn't believe it for reasons like he sees no reason why one of the buildings that wasn't hit by a plane collapsed, and there's something about a passport being found on the site that supposedly belonged to a terrorist but survived the plane crash. I don't know.

[UDP]

Ha. My husband believes the 9/11 conspiracy theories too. Dunno if it's type related or just a coincidence. It might be at least partially type related because he doesn't believe it for reasons like he sees no reason why one of the buildings that wasn't hit by a plane collapsed, and there's something about a passport being found on the site that supposedly belonged to a terrorist but survived the plane crash. I don't know.

When two buildings fall in exactly the same way at free fall speeds, it's just very suspicious. They didn't topple over, they fell straight down. It looks exactly like a controlled demolition.

There are lots of other things that are suspicious about it (building 7, disappearance of the plane wreckage, pilots of low skill, etc). I suspect that the whole story is not yet revealed. If you compare events like this to other things the government has done and other white papers (the 9/11 report) the government has produced, there plenty of reason to believe that things are being withheld.

Anyone who looks at how the government deals with information in a serious way can easily be suspicious. The deal is, of course, whether information is being withheld or altered for "good purposes" - and that's just a matter of guessing or faith. Sometimes the government will just do what it thinks is best, and sometimes it has to. And, sometimes - like if your (school) government is dealing with budget cuts, you can't really go around saying to faculty 'hey your job might be cut', otherwise it would create panic and make people unreasonable (you can say more appealing things like "the student/faculty ratio would deteriorate if these budget cuts passed); that example is relative to the US government (all govs) as well. It's just how things work. You can say that information is vital to the security and prestige of the school - and it may be. It is always a hard line between information revealed, information withheld, and the proper amount of both - where should that line be set? Where can it be set - where is the right balance between information revealed and not jeopardizing things?

That being said, I'm not sure of anything. I think there is a highly suspicious aura about it, but I don't know what to say. I don't think it is "unpatriotic" to question things, which is what some people say (it actually may be very patriotic, considering that the US values freedom, and so on). But I'm not ready to say that it was some ploy by GWB.

When more things are revealed to the public (or my knowledge) I'll know more about what to say. So all I can right now is that it is surely suspicious.

[redbaron]

are you guys serious??? whoa.

[dbmmama]

are you guys serious??? whoa.

really.

[UDP]

really what?

[Warlord]

We talked about the environment and global warming, and he believes that it is not really caused by humans. I said i think that the general scientific concensus these days is that it is definately caused by humans.

Actually no. Despite what the media tries to feed you. The evidence for the opposite is quite conclusive.

[meatburger]

I actually do think believing in the 9/11 conspiracy is partially type related. I have come across like 4 ISTp's that all believe it

There are lots of other things that are suspicious about it (building 7, disappearance of the plane wreckage, pilots of low skill, etc).

Claim: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: "The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

FACT: "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

Claim: Two holes were visible in the Pentagon immediately after the attack: a 75-ft.-wide entry hole in the building's exterior wall, and a 16-ft.-wide hole in Ring C, the Pentagon's middle ring. Conspiracy theorists claim both holes are far too small to have been made by a Boeing 757. "How does a plane 125 ft. wide and 155 ft. long fit into a hole which is only 16 ft. across?" asks reopen911.org, a Web site "dedicated to discovering the bottom line truth to what really occurred on September 11, 2001."

FACT:
Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. They also explained that they talked to a guy who was holding body parts from the crash, and showed a picture of the fuselage.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tech...age=6#bigplane

But yeah basically since i am not an engineer and have no idea what im talking about. Its my website vs his website. Popular mechanics vs www.ibelieve911doesn'tevistijustknowit.com

[Ms. Kensington]

i dont smoke

The most amazing thing that i noticed though is that while talking about our conflicting viewpoints we didn't argue even once. It was simply a civil exchange of information and there just didn't seem to be any angst there. I think that is a strong indicator of duality, that kind of acceptance.

you don't smoke si? you should try it it's sublime...

this wasn't boring no not at all.

[meatburger]

you don't smoke si? you should try it it's sublime...

this wasn't boring no not at all.

Haha smoking pure Si sounds amazing. I would smoke you if i could Jane i recon you would cause amazing effects.

[UDP]

Why wasn't the hole as wide as a 757's 124-ft.-10-in. wingspan? A crashing jet doesn't punch a cartoon-like outline of itself into a reinforced concrete building, says ASCE team member Mete Sozen, a professor of structural engineering at Purdue University. In this case, one wing hit the ground; the other was sheared off by the force of the impact with the Pentagon's load-bearing columns, explains Sozen, who specializes in the behavior of concrete buildings. They also explained that they talked to a guy who was holding body parts from the crash, and showed a picture of the fuselage.

How does he know that happened?
It's a possible explanation, but it is one that is already based on a conclusion. It sounds like he accepts that something happened, and then is trying to explain it. Unless he was there to see it or has some other evidence that supports his "in this case..." idea, it's just a possible line of reasoning.

My point here is, you can come up with any sort of rationalization you want for a conclusion, but if you aren't even sure about the conclusion, then it doesn't really matter. If there is no indisputable reality that you are referring to, then rationalizations are just mental concepts not really attached to anything. From what I understand - and I could be wrong - but from my current vantage point... there no clear, fully disclosed "this is what actually happened". So, it's basically up to belief or guessing or trying to figure out things based on extrapolation.

For example: we know that the towers fell down. There are many sources of video evidence of this. You can see that they are not there. We can see how long it took them to fall or how they fell. That is a conclusion, a "fact". At the very least, that is something to base rationalizations around, lines of thought. The towers fell because of planes hitting them; or, the towers fell because it was some inside job or demolition. That's still not that much, but at least it is more than seeing holes int he pentagon. It would be like seeing a pile of rubble where the WTCs were - and not knowing anything more.


One interesting thing about the Pentagon is the guy who was in the taxi cab and had the lamppost smash his car. He apparently saw a plane, but I really don't remember what he said - if it looked like a fighter or an airliner. Must have been a very strange experience for him.

But yeah basically since i am not an engineer and have no idea what im talking about. Its my website vs his website. Popular mechanics vs www.ibelieve911doesn'tevistijustknowit.com

It's going to be website against website and expert against expert until things change. If you watch the "Loose Change" videos, they also have experts and talk to people, which result in "convincing" "arguments".

What bothers me most is that this is basically a matter of what you choose to believe, and the facts are obfuscated. When everything is disclosed, then we can actually learn something.



PS: a lot of the ST arguments are basically going to be telling Intuition to "suck it"

[Warlord]

It was really:

[meatburger]

My point here is, you can come up with any sort of rationalization you want for a conclusion, but if you aren't even sure about the conclusion, then it doesn't really matter. If there is no indisputable reality that you are referring to, then rationalizations are just mental concepts not really attached to anything. From what I understand - and I could be wrong - but from my current vantage point... there no clear, fully disclosed "this is what actually happened". So, it's basically up to belief or guessing or trying to figure out things based on extrapolation.

It seems to me to be like saying: Dinosaurs may or may not have existed because we weren't there. It could be what most scientists believe or it could also be that aliens dropped the fossils there themselves. The thing is that the credibility of basically all of these conspiracy sites is in question. If you go to them they link to other retarded conspiracies like faked moon landings and mind control drinks.

It just seems very easy to me to get lost in the details. They also suggest that steel wouldn't melt at the temperatures of the building fire which is accurate. But when talking to an expert in steel manufacturing he said that it looses 90% of its strength at those type of temperatures. I think all you need to do is claim how some of the stuff they are saying is misinformation and the whole house of cards for the conspiracy falls to peices.

You are right though, its just expert vs expert. Just remember that there are many crackpot medical experts out there that claim that aids doesn't exist etc. Even if there is 1000 of them, they can still all be very wrong

PS: a lot of the ST arguments are basically going to be telling Intuition to "suck it"

True, although i actually take their belief in these things as evidence of why they NEED our intuition

[UDP]

PPS: I looked at the PM article to see if it said what actually happened to the wings or plane of the body.


Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

It's not really a convincing testimony either way. It seems believable of course, and I don't necessarily question him.


One of the hardest thing to believe about the conspiracy theories are that the GOV would have to pay off or influence a lot of people to keep their mouth shut - like that guy and the company he works for (and everyone else).

[UDP]

You are right though, its just expert vs expert. Just remember that there are many crackpot medical experts out there that claim that aids doesn't exist etc. Even if there is 1000 of them, they can still all be very wrong

Yeah, regardless of what they support.
: /

True, although i actually take their belief in these things as evidence of why they NEED our intuition

Like I said, I don't particularly believe that it was a conspiracy theory, but my certainty is relative to amount of information I know about it. As such I cannot be fully sure, and won't be until more information is revealed. And yes, that is actually why intuition is needed.

Hopefully, somehow, the two can work together to actually make a good decision.

[meatburger]

PPS: I looked at the PM article to see if it said what actually happened to the wings or plane of the body.


Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"

It's not really a convincing testimony either way. It seems believable of course, and I don't necessarily question him.


One of the hardest thing to believe about the conspiracy theories are that the GOV would have to pay off or influence a lot of people to keep their mouth shut - like that guy and the company he works for (and everyone else).

I agree with you totally. Thats what we talked about (the nature of the information). We must take popular mechanics word for it just like we must take 911truth.org's word for it or whatever.

I also agree that one of the hardest things for me to stomach is that the US could a) find enough people to be willing to be in on this conspiracy and b) actually pull it off pretty well (lol!!!).

Ockhams Razor states to believe in the most simple explanation which i believe is there was no conspiracy lol.

[UDP]

It seems to me to be like saying: Dinosaurs may more may not have existed because we weren't there. It could be what most scientists believe or it could also be that aliens dropped the fossils there themselves. The thing is that the credibility of basically all of these conspiracy sites is in question. If you go to them they link to other retarded conspiracies like faked moon landings and mind control drinks.

Yeah.... : /
(That's why I don't seek them out. To be honest the things I've seen about 9/11 stuffs were the Loose Change videos. I haven't looked that much into it otherwise, because like I said - once more stuff is revealed it doesn't matter that much to me. And, whatever the motivation, what is now "is what it is", so we've got to deal with that.)

It just seems very easy to me to get lost in the details. They also suggest that steel wouldn't melt at the temperatures of the building fire which is accurate. But when talking to an expert in steel manufacturing he said that it looses 90% of its strength at those type of temperatures. I think all you need to do is claim how some of the stuff they are saying is misinformation and the whole house of cards for the conspiracy falls to peices.

One of the counterpoints to that is (for WTC) is that the jet fuel/etc wouldn't seep down all the way to the bottom of the tower. And even if the steel did melt, it wouldn't all melt at once - it would sort of crunch and cringe. Not the entire height of the building "melting" all at once, in 11 seconds. That's what seems weird.

I do agree though about the flurry of details. It's too many things to really deal with - and it's easy for someone with doubts about the government or other paranoias to "get caught up" in stuff.

[redbaron]

imo, a conspiracy theory is completely ludicrous.

[UDP]

imo, a conspiracy theory is completely ludicrous.

Someone's getting a lump of coal in her(his?) stocking this winter

Ohhh man

.......... I want milk and cookies now.......
And, some presents, going home, and having a break would be nice, too.



PS: I'm going to make dinner now

[meatburger]

I do agree though about the flurry of details. It's too many things to really deal with - and it's easy for someone with doubts about the government or other paranoias to "get caught up" in stuff.

Yeah also someone who has no real knowledge in the area (like most of us i would assume). It is fun to talk about though, and i think you are talking to me very civilly which is again awesome. Goo delta

My first ISTp friend (different one) gets very angry at me when i argue with him about this stuff. He is in it deep, he honestly believes that they fly over houses in the US and drop chemicals on people etc. What is really funny is he tells me that i need to wake up and have an open mind . Its like aww dude im the one who is supposed to be the dominant. I actually must admit while i consider other possibilities i dont think i really do have an open mind once ive made it up. I can be convinced though. I think creatives are more likely to have an open mind?

imo, a conspiracy theory is completely ludicrous

Dont listen to her.. I have been told by my voices that redbaron works for the CIA.

[redbaron]

Dont listen to her.. I have been told by my voices that redbaron works for the CIA.

heehee

[redbaron]

Someone's getting a lump of coal in her(his?) stocking this winter

Ohhh man

.......... I want milk and cookies now.......
And, some presents, going home, and having a break would be nice, too.



PS: I'm going to make dinner now

do you.... not know by now that I'm a woman?? sheesh.

[jessica129]

My first ISTp friend (different one) gets very angry at me when i argue with him about this stuff. He is in it deep, he honestly believes that they fly over houses in the US and drop chemicals on people etc.

I had to lol at this. LOL

[UDP]

Yeah also someone who has no real knowledge in the area (like most of us i would assume). It is fun to talk about though, and i think you are talking to me very civilly which is again awesome. Goo delta

My first ISTp friend (different one) gets very angry at me when i argue with him about this stuff. He is in it deep, he honestly believes that they fly over houses in the US and drop chemicals on people etc. What is really funny is he tells me that i need to wake up and have an open mind . Its like aww dude im the one who is supposed to be the dominant. I actually must admit while i consider other possibilities i dont think i really do have an open mind once ive made it up. I can be convinced though. I think creatives are more likely to have an open mind?

To be honest I can get like your ISTp friend at times. I in fact was just very much that way with someone who is also in delta.

But I think at our best, a delta hallmark is civil discussion. (That's probably a hallmark of mature people of all types)

do you.... not know by now that I'm a woman?? sheesh.

I was 80% sure (so to say)... I figured I'd find out directly by asking. I was pretty sure you were a woman, thus her(his?). If I thought you were more a guy, it would have been his(her?).

[meatburger]

do you.... not know by now that I'm a woman?? sheesh.

Dont listen to her she is just trying to throw you off. She's a 250 pound german man named Fritz.

I had to lol at this. LOL

Yeah i think the chemicals that he himself inhales by way of a bong dont help. Dont think i am trying to be mean to ISTp's though. These guys are really really smart and i do think you are all awesome. <3

[Minde]

Its like aww dude im the one who is supposed to be the dominant. I actually must admit while i consider other possibilities i dont think i really do have an open mind once ive made it up. I can be convinced though. I think creatives are more likely to have an open mind?

I'm not sure, because I'm much like what you describe there. I for sure take in lots of possibilities (sometimes I feel there are too many and get frozen in indecision), but once I decide on one then that's pretty much it, unless good evidence to the contrary comes along.

[redbaron]

I was 80% sure (so to say)... I figured I'd find out directly by asking. I was pretty sure you were a woman, thus her(his?). If I thought you were more a guy, it would have been his(her?).

80% haha

well, fair enough.

[Elro]

One of the hardest thing to believe about the conspiracy theories are that the GOV would have to pay off or influence a lot of people to keep their mouth shut - like that guy and the company he works for (and everyone else).

That, I think, is the kicker.

[redbaron]

That, I think, is the kicker.

exactly.

[tiny_dancer]

Claim: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: "The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one."

FACT: "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

Random sidebar: Those buildings were designed to collapse in the manner that they did. All skyscrapers are engineered to collapse inward as opposed to toppling if something catastrophic happens. If there are any structural engineers floating around, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that... but I'm pretty sure they did an interview with the engineer who designed it and that's what he said.

[Creepy-]

I didn't find it boring either; it sounds like it was a very relaxed, thought-provoking conversation... very Delta, maybe [then again, I guess everyone thinks good things about their own quadra].

But I think at our best, a delta hallmark is civil discussion. (That's probably a hallmark of mature people of all types)

I agree that civil discussion in the face of disagreements is probably a hallmark of mature people in general. Still, I find that I can relax in conversation w other Deltas when our viewpoints are wildly different, in a way that often seems unreachable with other types. I guess it's probably this way for most people when interacting w members of their own quadra - Alphas enjoy friendly disagreements w Alphas, Betas w Betas, and Gammas w Gammas - which does make it seem like more than just maturity makes the difference, though. That said, "Goo, Delta."

[redbaron]

My EII mom is really good at having civilized discussions about ANYthing controversial or whatever. My SEI dad just stays quiet and/or leaves the room, he hates controversy or disagreement. I do really enjoy how my mom can talk about anything and keep it level-headed. She's a great listener even though I can't ever change her mind.

[UDP]

Random sidebar: Those buildings were designed to collapse in the manner that they did. All skyscrapers are engineered to collapse inward as opposed to toppling if something catastrophic happens. If there are any structural engineers floating around, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong on that... but I'm pretty sure they did an interview with the engineer who designed it and that's what he said.

Did he say anything about it being a gradual or a sudden process?

The WTCs looked like there was some sort of auto-collapse mechanism, or that their skeletons were just instantaneously dissolved. That there seemed to be no structural resistance at all to the fall is very odd.

shot of the towers falling.

[Elro]

Did he say anything about it being a gradual or a sudden process?

The WTCs looked like there was some sort of auto-collapse mechanism, or that their skeletons were just instantaneously dissolved. That there seemed to be no structural resistance at all to the fall is very odd.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJig1...eature=related shot of the towers falling.

I spoke to one of my engineering professors about that a few years ago... unfortunately I've forgotten the exact argument, but we did conclude it was plausible that that happened naturally. I think the explanation involved something where once it started to go, it increased the pressure on lower floors (or maybe it had something to do with momentum) so that failure was almost instantaneous for each floor. That's all I can remember though - sorry I can't be more specific.

[UDP]

I was thinking about that as I saw it again. I know air planes are quite massive and heavy.