Results 1 to 21 of 21

Thread: When duals go wrong

  1. #1
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default When duals go wrong

    Dual relationships are quite nice, but the problem is they cover up your weaknesses so much, that you stop improving yourself. This is very dangerous.

    If you spend too much time with a dual partner, the more dominant person in the dual relationship will totally pound the other one in submission (and not in the good way) where the more passive partner will totally stop taking care of themselves and just wisp away into nothingness because the dominant person is totally taking care of the physicality of the situation. This can continue so much so that they develop health problems. Caregivers dominate their infantiles; aggressors dominate their victims.

    I notice this with SLEs. They ALWAYS protect me if we're playing sports together, and so I can't learn myself. They just have a powerful physical presence, and will just completely take over the role while we're together so I don't have to worry about that at all. This is very relieving and it energies my mind so I can focus on talking to people about their issues and inner worlds, which is what I wanted to do anyway. But if I don't use SOME myself I will get very weak and sick. So I have to spend some time alone, or with other IEIs where I can practice my on my own.

    Dual relationships seem the best option to encounter environmental stress, so they contain the least amount of neuroticism. From a purely Darwinian standpoint of natural selection, this makes them the most ideal. But if you spend too much time with each other, this seems to backfire.

    With our highly technological world, we don't have to worry about environmental stress as much as we did back when socionics was developed, that's for sure. So people are weaker and out of shape. Now more than over, most people (in America at least) just don't need their duals, as our brains allow us to transcend the natural order of things by understanding it and looking down on it. (I'm not trying to put 'natural' as any kind of ideal, the Darwinian life of doing nothing but responding to environment stresses so you can mate is painfully unpleasant for humans and we seem to do everything we can to avoid it, unless we're trying to show how manly we are. But we're able to overcome it with our brains, and I think we were of course meant to. We conquer the world by becoming softer and smarter, not stronger and dumber.)

    To get strong and fit yourself, you need to hang around with somebody that just can't/won't cover up your weaknesses. Identity seems good for this. As they'll point out/educate you about your weaknesses but will be unable to do it for you.

    So it all works in the balance and a healthy life would need both. If I'm with a dominant person, I can still enjoy talking with them very much but it ALWAYS has to lead to an activity, as they have the natural urge to conquer things in their physical environment. But this just isn't really needed as much in this day and age as all the upgrade to our tools keeps on becoming well, 'faggier' and 'faggier.'

    So therefore, maybe that's also part of the reason why we tend to ignore our duals in situations, eh?

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    2,916
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i disagree.
    my SEE friend "pushes", encourages, and helps(not directly) me to do something.
    instead of just doing everything for me.
    with her, things get done, faster, and easier for the both of us. and not like what you mentioned, where we get weaker.

    i experience what you mentioned with my conflictor. my experience with my conflictors are like that. they like to have things done "right here, right now", when i think that it doesn't have to be that way, and i leave it for later. they end up doing it themselves, so i don't have to do anything.

    o. and i don't ever feel like being pounded into submission. that sounds ridiculous. it kinda works more like.. when she(my SEE friend) says that something needs to be done, i kinda suggest and tell her what works and what probably won't work so well. she listens, and puts thing into action.
    INTp
    sx/sp

  3. #3
    tereg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    TIM
    EII/INFj
    Posts
    4,684
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    To get strong and fit yourself, you need to hang around with somebody that just can't/won't cover up your weaknesses. Identity seems good for this. As they'll point out/educate you about your weaknesses but will be unable to do it for you.
    Let's look at this argument from the angle of the downside of Identity.

    Identity relationships understand one another's motivations and way of thinking. But growth is difficult to obtain in areas that you are weak that you desire.

    While having a great understanding of each other is great, when you run into situations where you need assistance, what happens?

    Think of this analogy: You are drowning, and your identical is drowning with you because you both think the same way, do things very similarly, and end up in similar situations.

    Can a person who is drowning save another person who is drowning?

    This is the pitfall of Identity relationships.
    INFj

    9w1 sp/sx

  4. #4
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    That's another way to look at it sure. All of this is open to interpretation/perception.

    Of course it might not feel like they're pounding you. But I think that is still what IS happening even if it doesn't FEEL that way. I think it feels very natural and fluid, of course. But they're still covering up all your weaknesses where you don't have to develop or pay any attention to your painful/weak functions yourself. No, not functions. Just the physical sensations of reality.

    This isn't that bad I suppose, as it's usually much more beneficial to develop your strengths rather than improving your weaknesses. You'll go more places, definitely. But if you spend TOO much time, just with your dual- it can still be very draining. That was my point.

    They're still good, but I think some of the kids here might get the idea that you have to do nothing in life but just hang with your dual all day, 24/7. Again that would simply kill/hurt the passive partner eventually greater than any other interaction. They might not realize it until it's too late. I'm probably breaking things down too much lol @ my .

    Maybe it just depends on the types too. I notice it a lot with LSE/EII, ESE/LII, and SLE/IEI duals.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    2,916
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    nope. i don't think duals cover your weak functions to the extend where you slowly stop paying attention to them.
    gotta remember that the functions in your super-id are valued.
    in fact, i think you get better at them after hanging out with your dual more, unlike with your conflictor, where they focus on those functions you don't value.

    duals give you more confidence to use the super-id block when not with them.
    it's more draining being with your conflictor.
    INTp
    sx/sp

  6. #6
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've just seen this same situation happen in so many dual relationships. They're not used to their dual, so they just naturally let the dual take over what they're not good at. You can't really fight against this. It feels so good, until suddenly, they realize they got sick from their inactivity. The dominant person usually doesn't mind at all, btw.

    It's something that you are quite unaware of, but it still creeps up on you.

    Comfortable isn't always what is best for us. The challenge of other types helps us develop our own selves through adversity. In the end everybody has to develop/work on their weaknesses in some small fashion if they don't want to die. Perhaps I was overexaggerating some things though. Things are really too complex for any one idea to hold up, so I appreciate any objectivity.

    And I apologize if I'm being too direct, but I am just kind of challenging myself/people a bit.

  7. #7
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I didn't mean a psychological drain or nagginess.

    I'm talking about something completely physical here. You can still go on and be happy being physically weak. But it can catch up to you.

    Not sure I'm being understood lol.

    I'm talking about basic physical health. Exercise. Physical presence.

    I'm talking about interaction with duals. Maybe later they make you feel confident to do it yoruself, but when you're with them- they totally take that role over. You spend enough time with them, and I just think that is dangerous to your health.

  8. #8
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    nope. i don't think duals cover your weak functions to the extend where you slowly stop paying attention to them.
    It has nothing to do with paying attention to any mental function. I said that wrong. It's something that again, is completely physical. Nothing at all to do with emotions, or thought processes, or psychology.

    I hope I'm making sense here lol. If not, eh whatever. Maybe some people will know what I mean.

  9. #9
    aka Slacker Slacker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    North Korea
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    8,819
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I agree that dualism is sometimes overrated in Socionics, but this is complete bullshit. Duals don't make each other lazy or weaker or neurotic. My husband and I are both individually healthier and stronger than we were before we got together a decade ago. He had problems with anxiety attacks and depression before that. I didn't have anything that serious but my lifestyle wasn't healthy.

    Also, I use tons of Si living with someone whose base function is Si. They don't really "completely take over" it. It becomes part of the environment and everyone uses it. What he "completely takes over" would be more like Ti and Se, and thank goodness because using those don't really make me healthy. THAT would be what would make me neurotic - having to constantly use something I'm bad at and that makes me feel inferior.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

  10. #10
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by tereg View Post
    Let's look at this argument from the angle of the downside of Identity.

    Identity relationships understand one another's motivations and way of thinking. But growth is difficult to obtain in areas that you are weak that you desire.

    While having a great understanding of each other is great, when you run into situations where you need assistance, what happens?

    Think of this analogy: You are drowning, and your identical is drowning with you because you both think the same way, do things very similarly, and end up in similar situations.

    Can a person who is drowning save another person who is drowning?

    This is the pitfall of Identity relationships.
    That's good.

    I think so long as duals respect each other mutually, they can grow. By their very nature, they are going to be looking at things from vastly different perspectives. If one dual is "being instructed" all the time and the other is always right, then it's kind of lopsided.

    If both people are willing to learn from the other person, then I think growth can really take place.


    Conflict occurs in dual relationships when there is doubt about the quality of the other person's base function which is your dual seeking function. If that happens, then things can be very tumultuous; when someone wants to give something to someone else, and the someone else needs this - yet they question it.... then it's very uneasy.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  11. #11
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Argggh. I'm just not being understood.

    Forget it. I'll take my defeat like a man. But please try and listen to what I'm trying to say.

    Btw, Slacker Mom, I agree that duals fight off neuroticism very well and I said that already. It wasn't about that. Or even tiredness/fatigue (per se). But raw physical health.

    It was wrong for me to start talking about the functions, cause it wasn't really ever about that I don't think.

    It's just something I noticed in many dual couples over time. I don't know how else to explain it.

  12. #12
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I agree that dualism is sometimes overrated in Socionics, but this is complete bullshit. Duals don't make each other lazy or weaker or neurotic. My husband and I are both individually healthier and stronger than we were before we got together a decade ago. He had problems with anxiety attacks and depression before that. I didn't have anything that serious but my lifestyle wasn't healthy.

    Also, I use tons of Si living with someone whose base function is Si. They don't really "completely take over" it. It becomes part of the environment and everyone uses it. What he "completely takes over" would be more like Ti and Se, and thank goodness because using those don't really make me healthy. THAT would be what would make me neurotic - having to constantly use something I'm bad at and that makes me feel inferior.
    Yeah, I can understand that.

    It's just like in economics, somewhat - maximizing trade benefits. Instead of trying to produce everything yourself (when you have clear advantages and disadvantages to what you can make), you just trade what you make well for what someone else makes well.... and the end result is more goods for everyone.

    In other words, energy is spent more efficiently because each person focuses on their strengths and it compliments each other's weakness.

    I think stagnation could occur if you just use the other person as a crutch, yes. But that isn't really a socionics thing but more a maturity thing.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  13. #13
    Creepy-Cyclops

    Default

    Duals don't do everything for you. You can have any relationship were the other wipes your ass for you, dual or otherwise. The only problem i've found with duality is when the other half think they are better than what your natural strengths are, and that's just annoying. If that doesn't happen it's a natural supporting and learning process.

  14. #14
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    You can have any relationship were the other wipes your ass for you, dual or otherwise.
    lol I guess that's true. But I just think it happens without realizing it. I don't think they consciously mean to wipe your ass or overprotect you, but that is what seems to happen naturally. You could have an awareness of this and try to manuever it, but why would you when duals are already so awesome and rewarding?

    The only problem i've found with duality is when the other half think they are better than what your natural strengths are, and that's just annoying.
    Yeah, I'm not sure why a dual would do that anyway unless they were being silly, or they simply didn't know themselves.

    Anyways I think this thing isn't a socionics thing either, but more like an indirect consequence of it.

  15. #15
    Creepy-Diana

    Default

    .

  16. #16
    Haikus
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    MI
    TIM
    IEI-Ni
    Posts
    10,060
    Mentioned
    223 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ooooh. I get it now. Really. I think you're right. I think I was just describing Conflicting, and I was confused by the semantics.

    Imo, your dual isn't really covering weaknesses as much as uncovering your strengths.
    Yeah good point.

  17. #17
    dattebayo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    380
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Argggh. I'm just not being understood.

    Forget it. I'll take my defeat like a man.
    Sounds Se to me

    With my ISTp brother, I wouldn't say that he takes over my Si, but he really doesn't enhance it either. He just Sis a lot and I just happen to be there

    With my ISTp bf, seriously, I wasn't even aware of the concept of Si before I met him

    So I guess you can be a little right but duality rocks!!! Also you can choose to learn from the masters if you are lucky enough to have a dual at hand
    n00bIEE

  18. #18
    Haikus Sirena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    GAH, US
    TIM
    Mumpsimus
    Posts
    2,549
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    So I guess you can be a little right but duality rocks!!! Also you can choose to learn from the masters if you are lucky enough to have a dual at hand
    I really like this thought.

  19. #19

    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    USA.
    TIM
    INTj
    Posts
    4,497
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Duals don't do everything for you. You can have any relationship were the other wipes your ass for you, dual or otherwise. The only problem i've found with duality is when the other half think they are better than what your natural strengths are, and that's just annoying. If that doesn't happen it's a natural supporting and learning process.
    i agree that a source of conflict is when the dual tries to encroach in the areas of your strengths.

    I also have not experienced in real life an ability to be more of myself or be stronger because of my dual. I do feel "better" or destressed, and perhaps more productive all things being equal, but think about it. if duality works if you don't work on the same areas together with your dual, that's not necessarily as productive as working with someone of a different type whom you can work on the same areas. you would need to assume some other things.

    however im still working on how this all plays out in reality as well. Especially as I get older, I've got to adjust as things, including my own capacities and patience, have changed.

  20. #20
    dattebayo's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    380
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    like minds

    plus we have the coolest duals - ever. Us selves... probably not so cool
    n00bIEE

  21. #21
    Haikus Sirena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    GAH, US
    TIM
    Mumpsimus
    Posts
    2,549
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    like minds

    plus we have the coolest duals - ever. Us selves... probably not so cool
    Agreed! You're lucky to have at least a couple of 'em around.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •