I didn't say there was no correlation - I said they were vague and that they were not significantly like the Socionics types you suggested.Originally Posted by rmcnew
I said why I thought you were wrong and then went superficially into further depth - and yet you say I was repeating myself.
My apologies then. I am probably just stressed out that I am not getting many responses to this that I consider to be of much value. It seems most people are just quickly looking at the information, making some judgment then not investigating any further. I should reclarify probably or be more simple.
I am going to add another posting within one hour that shows clearly some of the correspondences that I have found.
The first thing that is suspicious is that Augusta opted for a :R: shape rather than the crescent. Why not just stick with the crescent if that's what this is all about?
Next, why would this connection be offensive, even if it were true? We all know Augusta got into things like chakras and grew increasingly mystical in her later years. Some of her work has not withstood the test of time. Mendeleev claims to have seen the periodic table of elements in a dream, and yet chemists aren't embarassed about that. Basically, it doesn't matter, although it certainly would be interesting if it were discovered that Augusta had gained ideas from other sources. Considering the frankness with which she discussed her ideas and their origins and talked about chakras and energy and stuff, it would seem strange that she didn't mention alchemy and other esoteric sources of inspiration, if they were there. She was hardly secretive about this stuff.
Next, no one "over there" has found any reason to question Augusta's own explanation of where the symbols came from, even those who were close to her early on.
Her choice of symbols is intuitive and goes something as follows. Sensing isbecause the circle represents the totality of reality, beyond interpretation. The triangle :I: is circumscribed by reality, and is pointed like the inquisitive mind. Logic is a square,
, because perfect straight lines and angles are a product of the logical mind, not of nature itself. Ethics is like logic in that it is not an inherent part of nature, but it is "partial", so not a complete square, but rather
.
It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.
OK then.
This is my understanding: INTj\INFj is Pisces and Water, and the three war strategies for Pisces are 'Loss: non-defensive', 'Loss: meekness', and 'Loss: retry'.
These strategies seem like they could apply to a few types, and even with justification, they seem vague. Putting INTj and INFj together for Pisces doesn't really work, because we know them to be two distinct types. The traits for Water and Pisces may well represent some stereotypal image of human behaviour, but they do not seem to correlate satisfactorily with Socionics IMO. I don't think incorporating planetary risings and houses and so on is going to help things - it's already vague to begin with. Any personality descriptions which arise from such permutations would almost certainly have been written very recently too.
You also forgot that I listed Pisces,IXTj under the alchemical process of projection and as mutable types. And also, I would not get caught up in just looking at the names. I would read descriptions of the laws under the names as well.
I should be done in half an hour with some clarifications of my findings [hopefully] ...
Hold off from commenting yet ... I am going to put another post here explaining this ...
Alright, this is how it goes ....
The Zodiac is simply a division of a circle into 12 parts, which split into 3 parts. This concept of the zodiac was well known to anchient people and various laws were invented from studying the mathematics according to polarities, correspondences, neutrality, conflicts, and friendly vibrations. The 36 laws of war that come from china are one of the few remaining examples of the usage of the laws that were derived from the mathematical zodiac that were practical, unlike the unpractical bullshit that the zodiac is associated with nowdays [*cough* astrology]. This is why I chose to use the laws to demonstrate that the zodiac does indeed show a correspondance with socionics. The practicality of the laws that has been proven throughout time.
Because the the zodiac is 360 degrees, in order to do a full circle with all the socionics types represented I would have to have done a 400 degree circle, with something like about 7 degrees per sign instead of 10. Because of this, more than one types was listed in the mutable signs Pisces, Gemini, Virgo, and Sagitarrius. I determined that these certain signs must belong there according to various corresponding information. Alchemically, spring is the young season and represents wet. Socionics officially lists the "ALPHA" quadra as the quadra of youth. I determined that this must mean that ENTp,INTj,ESFj,and ISFp fit around the signs of Gemini, Taurus, Pisces, and Aries. However, after doing this with all the quadras. I noticed that there were not enough signs to cover this. I then looked at the fact that some signs were mutable, cardinal, and fixed. The mutable signs were always at the end and beginning of seasons and represented elements of more than one season. So, I assigned two types to the mutable types. I also realized that I had to account for above and below signs. For example, Gemini and Aries are above signs and Taurus and Pisces were below signs. After some study, I realized that polaritywise Taurus represented both Si and Ti, and Aries represented Fe and Ne. However, the laws that were prescribed to Taurus and Aries seemed extremely ESFj and ISFp to me. I realized that part of Aries, Extroverted Intuition, went to Gemini and part of Taurus, Introverted Logic, went to Pisces. By doing this with all of the types and quadra EXACTLY in this way I was able to make very close comparisons between socionics and the zodiac. In fact, I will prove that right now.
Take this chart right here:
This chart I have made to represent polarities between types as they are applied to the zodiac. Each sign has a socionics type and the laws are corresponding to various parts of each signs psyche. For example, ESFj is Aries, which would be dominated by Extroverted Feeling. Extroverted feeling is supported by Introverted Senseing, which would be the first laws on the list. The second law on the list would be the suggestive function, which would be socionics Introverted Logic. And the last law would be applied to the hidden agenda, which would be Extroverted Intuition.
Let me go ahead and break down the following laws for everyone, which I have prescribed to ESFj and Aries. Aries[ESFj] is lead by Extroverted Feeling, so all the functions below would be a subset of Extroverted Feeling.
[Si][creative function] Steal the firewood from under the Pot
[Ti][suggestive function] Shed skin like the golden Cicada
[Ne][hidden agenda function] Befriend a distant enemy to attack one nearby
Steal the Firewood from under the Pot - [power]
All things have an asset, the inner drive of a being. Sometimes it is necessary to put out the inner fire of another, so there is no
energy to face you. This is called “stealing thunder.”
Shed Skin like the Golden Cicada - [illusion]
To feint in appearing large, invulnerable, and stable when really small, vulnerable, and instable, thus allowing escape from some
other thing.
Befriend a distant enemy to attack one nearby - [pivot]
Otto von Bismarck of the Prussian Empire openly makes a treaty with Britain and Italy. This made France more vulnerable when it
eventually attacked the Prussian Empire
If you were just to simply take the above information on its own to derive a short ESFj type description, you could do it accuratelly.
I will do that right now.
"ESFjs are people who take the incentive, but they sometimes steal the fire from others in the process; they like to be in charge of things. ESFjs are lively and everywhere they go is full of life on their account, and they always leave with a bang. ESFjs tend to make friends with people in proximity to the people close to them, and often get the people not close to them to do favors for them. ESFjs may be vague and indirect, and if you ask them where they got something they may give a misleading sounding answer."
And of course the direct opposite of an ESFj is an ENTj, who neutralize each other out. Law 1 can be neutralized by invokeing law 19, and 2 neutralized by invokeing 20, and 3 21 and etc. They are exactly 180 degrees apart on the Zodiac.
Well, the thing that gets me curious is that I had originally determined by reading Carl Jung's work thatThe first thing that is suspicious is that Augusta opted for a :R: shape rather than the crescent. Why not just stick with the crescent if that's what this is all about?
Next, why would this connection be offensive, even if it were true? We all know Augusta got into things like chakras and grew increasingly mystical in her later years. Some of her work has not withstood the test of time. Mendeleev claims to have seen the periodic table of elements in a dream, and yet chemists aren't embarassed about that. Basically, it doesn't matter, although it certainly would be interesting if it were discovered that Augusta had gained ideas from other sources. Considering the frankness with which she discussed her ideas and their origins and talked about chakras and energy and stuff, it would seem strange that she didn't mention alchemy and other esoteric sources of inspiration, if they were there. She was hardly secretive about this stuff.
Next, no one "over there" has found any reason to question Augusta's own explanation of where the symbols came from, even those who were close to her early on.
Her choice of symbols is intuitive and goes something as follows. Sensing is
I think that theoreticallyis just an easier way to write an upside down cresent shape, than doing it the way that was shown in the wiccan book. I mean, seriously. Would you want to spend time writting that cresent shape when the other shapes are so easy to write?I wouldn't. I would rather just make an L angled shape.
Rick, we'd never heard about this side of Augusta before. Where can those writings be obtained? I'm interested because I think they are in fact very relevant to duality as it is considered under model B. (the chakras are paths of energy and thus, representations of duality)
Mcnew:
Well it looks to me like you are on to something. Doubtless Augusta encountered those elemental symbols in her reading. I think that in light of Rick's evidence the hypothesis that Augusta intended those symbols to have correlation to the classical elements is wrong; however, she may have looked at them as inspiration when thinking of how to illustrate the IM elements. The attribution thus was the next step in the evolution of abstract classification notation.
Looking at it objectively, I can't agree with your equate of F to water. Liquid itself is an Fi-Te relationship, absolutely; however, fire is Fe-Ti in that it breaks things up. Vibration (a quality associated with earth) is also Fe-Ti.
Have you been an ESTP with me? Be honest. I won't get angry. I want this to work out.
EII; E6(w5)
i am flakey
some kids never do figure it out
This is where I started getting confused. To me, there is no reason why socionics must be connected with anything.
LMAO
some kids never do figure it out
JRiddy
—————King of Socionics—————
Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
Or maybe I just don't take those ridicilious diagrams very seriously. I've read like tens of thousands of pages about occultism. It's pretty safe to say I know and understand lot more than you do. Especially since you cite as your source, someone who's a "wittan".
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
+3
JRiddy
—————King of Socionics—————
Ne-ENTp 7w8 sx/so
lolActually, it's interesting that you should say this, since more and more socionists have been talking openly about Aushra's ties to Theosophy and Sufism. She confided in a few close followers of her astral connection to the Great White Brotherhood. It is well possibly she originally obtained the symbols from the Gundestrup cauldron, and her teachings on duality are marvellously reminiscent of the tawhīd. Aushra sawas a sort of "aether" uniting the other elements, and she would exert the chakras with chants of "Eko! Eko! Azarak! Eko! Eko! Zomelak!"
+
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
I suppose if you wanted to make it into a contest. I did study theology for 4 years with a minor in Greek and Hebrew in University, German for 3 years in university, and have taken loads of religious classes, many of them involving ancient cultures and even one on witchcraft. So, if you really think you know more than I do, suit yourself. It seems I have devoted my life to spiritual and often occult type stuff.
The difference in what is on the diagram in consideration to what you have said is so minute, it hardly makes a difference. Although I'll note that and see if that better fits into a future diagram.
I have been both ENFj and EXTp with you. Gilligan I was being EXTp to shut him up. Minde I have been EXTp. Subterranean, Carla, Allie I started acting ENFj/INFp and they started to like me better. I have been ENTj/INTp to Winterpark and for other dubious reasons that I care not to explain.
Sure why not:
Air = Smell = Hiddekel = Mezrach = Tahoeloj = Raphael = Ariel = Chassan = Paralda = Yetzirah, Formative World = Mah = 45 = Ruach = Oriens = Alcemical element of Mercury = Left upper point of pentagram = Vayu the blue circle = Sankhara = Breath = Thought
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
This message is endorsed by rmcnew.
Yeah, that is good ... although I think you should go a little less "undressy" and more "math/book conservative chick gothic geek" or something along that line ...
This message is endorsed by rmcnew.
That is what he started to type himself at first, but for some odd reason he started to type himself as ENFp.
Socionics is a remnant of alchemy ... it is a fact and this proves it.
Last edited by Angel von Himmel; 01-02-2009 at 03:03 AM. Reason: morons
This can be the official thread for people like niffweed who have no clue whatsoever.
I think this evidence here supports niffweeds 'theory' ...
The difference between what I am doing and what you and niffweed are sarcastically doing is this. You are randomly putting things together to try to make some dumb point about not understanding or knowing some point in something and I am deliberately piecing things together that are suppose to be together, but because of different outlooks, applications, and the distortion of time they no longer look like they belong together. Niffweed is just being what he constantly accuses other people of being when he does not immediately understand something, and you are following right along with him. Be more open minded for God sakes, both of you.
You are missing the point .. this thread is about being sarcastic about things spiritual and not readily understood except conceptually. This "mathematical" and "scientific" crap is just something you are slipping in to make a false differentiation that there is nothing scientific or mathematical in what I have done. And the fact that you do not see math and science in this, then that just proves that you just do not readily understand it and that it is something you are going to have to study and intuit for yourself.
In any case ... this is apparently turning into some "left brain" ... "right brain" debate where you are claiming that I am left brain and maybe niffweed is right brain or something. Now, I would agree that what I am doing is more left brain activity and that science and math is more of a right brain thing. However, that does not prove that there is no science and math involved in what I am doing, and you simply just need to study and understand more. For example there is a science behind music and there is math behind music, while music is left brain activity. It is the same with what I am doing. That is all I am going to say.
congratulations on your highly keen grasp of science.
given your words, you deserve absolutely no respect from anyone. and you will not get any.
Your own words condemn you, friend.
ironically, out of context is less dumb than in context, but it makes for a better sound byte. i won't lose any sleep.This "mathematical' and "scientific" crap is just something you are slipping in
perhaps, but not on this topic.
When people would finally spend more time using "mathematics" and "peer reviewing" with a positive mindset the other actual thread this sad smiley would suddenly become unnecessary.
I think the observers of this conversation have you beat on that opinion.
The math is geometry, albeit fairly simple geometry to measure various degrees of the functions [as elements] by polarities.
Now hopefully what I am about to say here will make it simple so that you can go do your own research with little hassle.
-The first thing to know is that in socionics the PoLR and Ego functions of one type show the polarity of complete strength and total weakness. This is actually exactly word by word the way that the zodiac matches up the elements on a 360 degree circle of polarities. This actually shows that socionics and alchemy both have a high degree of correspondence even to the point of proving that they are the same thing, as is proven in the following.
-The second thing to prove from this that socionics and the zodiac are the same exact thing is quite simple, because the tattwas elements from india are actually the same exact thing as the functions in socionics ... square being earth, water being the L shape in socionics or the crescent shape tattwa, intuition being a triangle, and sensing being a circle. The tattwas have been around for 1000s of years and have had various usages, one of them being associated with "mental transmutation" philosophies that were adopted into warfare and civilian life, and made their way into religions such as buddhism, taoism, wicca, and etc.
-The second thing is that you need to understand which elements go with the signs of the zodiac and the qualities of mutable, cardinal, and fixed. You need to understand that mutable signs are androgynous and change into either male or female, fixed signs are female, and cardinal signs are male.
-The third thing you need to understand is that alchemically and socionically speaking male represents extroversion and female represent introversion.
-The forth thing you need to know and do is to take the tattwa elements, which look exactly like the functions in socionics and replace the signs of the zodiac with them. Match them up by their same element and by strong and weak polarities.
- The fifth thing you need to do is to make sure that you know that the mutable signs actually represent two male and female elements of the same element. If you line them up correctly based upon weak and strong polarity, you should get a zodiac/socion system of 16 and not the 12 found in astrology.
-The sixth thing you would need to know is that a study into the taoist based "art of war" and the "36 strategems from china" shows that whoever the people were who wrote both understood the western zodiac as it was adopted into taoism, as well as the tattwas. However, the 36 strategems are based on the zodiac 12 and not the socionic 16, which means that there are only one set of 3 strategems for both male and female elements when there should be 3 for male and 3 for female of the same element when you go with the socionics model. However, I also speculate that the 4 mutable signs as strategems actually just represent extroverted intuition, introverted thinking, introverted feeling, and extroverted sensing and neglect the other 4 functions.
- The seventh thing you would need to do is obtain a copy of the kybalion and read up on vibration and correspondence, as well as understanding the order of metals in alchemy. The sun and the moon by means of high vibration in a hierarchy represent spiritual superiority while the lowest one lead represents the darkness of supreme isolation. Take note here that there is also an ordering of the 36 Chinese strategems from superiority to confrontation, from attack to confusion, and from gain to loss. This corresponds heavily to the ordering of the metals in alchemy from superiority to inferiority and back. This is further supported by understanding what alchemical processes are involved with each sign and then comparing those to the sign associated with a certain set of 3 strategems. When done correctly the resemblance is uncannily noticeable.
- The other thing you need to know is that it could take you upwards to a year of off and on study of the various materials I have given to completely show that you have understanding, unless you have already studied similar material for a long time; then you would understand faster.
Not sure why this thread was stickied by subterranean, but it does have valid material by no means associated with niffweeds bigotry towards the end and above this posting, so I suppose I would agree it is worth stickying in that regards.
The point that I am making in response to the fact that niffweed decided to make some mute point that piecing a bunch of random things together is pointless is that the things that I am piecing together actually belong together in one system and were actually separated into various systems that began to appear that they were conflicting with each other, but the principles behind them remained the same; this means that what I am doing is deliberate[meaning not random] and is just putting things back into their proper elements. It is hard for me not to see people who have problems with having to strive to study things to understand something complex as bigots, especially when they act like niffweed and want to discriminate anythings that does not come easily or of are a different perspective than what he is use to. In other words, this shows that niffweed has committed a logic fallacy and as a result showing a great deal of ignoranance.
In any case, any actual intelligent human being would follow the instructions I have laid down two or three posts up and see clearly see that the socion and the zodiac are one and the same thing. In other words, socionics is exactly the same as the zodiac except placed in a different package. It is undeniable once you see it and soon there is going to be someone who actually follows the directions I have laid who is going to agree with me.
LIBER ENIM LIBRUM APERIT
- ONE BOOK OPENS ANOTHER -
This is some interesting information on the tattwas ...
"Tattwa is a Sanskrit word meaning energy. Tattwas are five geometric symbols which represent the five universal energies. Each Tattwa symbolizes unique energies with specific properties, potentials and frequencies.In varying combinations, these five energies make up the sum totality of everything in our physical and spiritual universe.
"The Tattwas work to increase your power to manifest your goals and desires quickly. Many forms of manifesting are incomplete as
they usually focus on one area of your life. Blockages in one area can effect and delay or even prevent their realization." -- Solarraven
This four-part Tattwa Manifesting Meditation will work with four of the five symbols: The triangle, the circle, the moon, and the square.
The music featured is the classic Bradfield track "Heaven & Earth Spirits"
This music holds important tonal information to awaken the soul and infuse human beings with truth, love, and hope for the future.
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To purchase one of these Healing CDs:
http://www.bradfield.ca
http://www.apsismusic.com
"...it defiantly holds many tones and frequencies, which have assisted me with raising my own vibrational field over these past two years." Shelley Yates, Fire the Grid.com
For information on other powerful healing and manifesting tools:
http://pjentoft.com
Working with Tattwas can be so powerful that some may experience a temporary healing crisis. This is actually very good and means a big change has occurred. Check this link out for more information
http://www.compassionatedragon.com/cr...
First, I congratulate you on correcting your spelling of "hassle".
Second, you base the connection between socionics, tattwas, and astrology on the fact that their elements have similar shapes.
This is a false assumption (for more than the obvious reasons). Both socionics and the tattwas picked the figures that are easiest to draw and distinguish between. Any polygon with more than four sides looks similar to a circle and is harder to draw than a corner or a crescent shape, which is easily distinguishable. There is no connection between them other than simplicity (of element design).
That was the obvious reason; this one requires some knowledge: the socionics elemental symbols and the Indian ones do not correspond to each other by their definitions. If there is a link between astrology and the tattwas, there is no link between the tattwas and socionics. As I have told you before, the astrological symbol for the air element (a circle) in no way reflects the socionics sensing elements and is closer to describing the socionics concept of intuition. The astrological symbol for the ground element (a square) does not really describe the socionics elements of logic and better fits with the socionics concept of sensing. The astrological element for fire (a triangle) does not describe what we think of as intuition. It in fact can be attributed mainly to Fe. As per water, it can mainly be attributed to Fi. Logic is mostly lacking from the system.
Surtout, pas trop de zèle.
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