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Thread: Henry David Thoreau

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    Default Henry David Thoreau

    Thoreau: ISTp


    A few of Emerson's words on Thoreau:

    "I know not any genius who so swiftly inferred universal law from a single fact."
    -Induction out the ass.

    According to Emerson, Thoreau ruthlessly pursued "the art of living well."
    -Uhhh...can you say ?

    "He never married; he lived alone; he never went to church;...he drank no wine; he knew no use of tobacco..."
    -Basically, he a) was an introvert, b) had uber- , and c) had absolutely no .

    And here's the killer:

    "Yet, hermit and stoic though he was, he was really fond of sympathy, and threw himself heartily and childlike into the company of young people whom he loved, and whom he delighted to entertain..."

    Well, maybe it's just me, but that sounds like the DEFINITION of hidden agenda.

    Oh, and for VI:

    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    "He never married; he lived alone; he never went to church;...he drank no wine; he knew no use of tobacco..."
    -Basically, he a) was an introvert, b) had uber- , and c) had absolutely no .
    I think you switched the order, it would actually be a),c), then b).

    About:
    a) damn you... Instead of that you could have said that he wanted to live in isolation . sigh...

    c) doesn't mean he's not intuitive. And how do you know he never went to church? Unless you mean that he didn't want to go. Anyway, I don't see the direct relationship between being and having to go to church.

    In fact, isn't Romanticism and idealistic movement?

    b) is that a sign of or judgment?

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    He looks INFj.
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    Hmmm... Are we thinking about the same Thoreau? The Thoreau of Walden fame? The Thoreau who shut himself out in a cabin in the woods to meditate on the nature of the Self in relation to the body, then went back to his mommy's for supper? The Thoreau who was a proponent of the American-mystic movement? the Thoreau who wrote this?:

    I stand in awe of my body, this matter to which I am bound has become so strange to me. I fear not spirits, ghosts, of which I am one-that my body might-but I fear bodies, I tremble to meet them. What is this Titan that has taken possession of me? Talk of mysteries-Think of our life in nature-daily to be shown matter, to come in contact with it-rocks, trees, wind on our cheeks! the solid earth! the actual world! the common sense! Contact! Contact! Who are we? where are we?
    Whole lotta going on there, if you ask me.

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    Intuitive-logical Introvert.
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    I'm taking that stuff from Emerson's biography of him. Read it if you like. It's got alot about how he was REALLY good with his hands and could repair/make anything. Emerson also addresses his stringent attention to details and his perfect consistency in all his work.

    Sure, I see some in that, but I can see an type being equally fascinated by his/her body, if not even more so. I think an type would be more likely to believe in or be afraid of ghosts or other mystical beliefs than an , wouldn't you?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I'm taking that stuff from Emerson's biography of him. Read it if you like. It's got alot about how he was REALLY good with his hands and could repair/make anything
    Don't worry, I'll take your word for it. Being good with your hands doesn't mean that much in terms of his personality type. It could also be that he had good hand dexterity and patience.

    Since I am definitely not an expert with personality types and the like, I'd rather not answer about the and . sorry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanum
    Being good with your hands doesn't mean that much in terms of his personality type. It could also be that he had good hand dexterity and patience.
    If you think anything of BTI, then you know that ST/EI types have better-developed fine motor skills.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Sure, I see some in that, but I can see an type being equally fascinated by his/her body, if not even more so. I think an type would be more likely to believe in or be afraid of ghosts or other mystical beliefs than an , wouldn't you?
    Oh dear... I think you might have seriously misread that passage. It's not about being "fascinated" with the body... in fact, it is quite the opposite. What Thoreau is speaking of is a feeling of estrangement from the body; he is speaking from the pretext that the Self is not defined by physical reality, but something less fleeting - a "soul" if you will, but a soul that transcends thought, transcends the senses, transcends even emotion. This particular passage sheds light on all of Thoreau's writing, especially Walden. Are you at all familiar with the American Transcendentalist movement of the 19th century? This is one of the most eloquent distillations of that movement, and Emerson himself identified himself as part of this movement in "The Transcendentalist" (1842).

    As per the specific quotations you cited from Emerson's biography:

    "I know not any genius who so swiftly inferred universal law from a single fact."
    -- Look up the Emerson's lectures "On Nature" (1841-43). He's not talking about inductive logic. He's talking about intuitive agency in the face of a kernal of "truth."

    "He never married; he lived alone; he never went to church;...he drank no wine; he knew no use of tobacco..."
    -- The fact that he did not attend a Christian Church is not at all surprising given the fact that he was fascinated with, and highly influenced by, Eastern philosophy - particularly that of Buddhist cosmology. The Christian religion is drenched in Fe. Eastern cosmology is steeped in Ni. Furthermore, his abstaining from alcohol and tobacco is not uber-Se at all. It is asceticism, which is much more indicative of an intuition-focus, as opposed to sensory gratification or execution. HOWEVER, there are a few things pointing to Se proficiency in Thoreau's life but they are not what you seem to be citing, here. The most obvious is that he built his cabin in Walden Woods himself, by his own two hands.

    "Yet, hermit and stoic though he was, he was really fond of sympathy, and threw himself heartily and childlike into the company of young people whom he loved, and whom he delighted to entertain..."
    -- That is indeed Fi, but I'm not entirely convinced it is acting as hidden agenda. Emerson's depiction is much too warm for it to be such an unconscious force.

    From all of your comments, you really come across as never having read Thoreau's work or, having read it, grossly misinterpreted it. What you have done is taken Emerson out of context and presented us with equivocation.

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    If you think anything of BTI, then you know that ST/EI types have better-developed fine motor skills.
    I'll get back to you when I know what BTI means, and ST/EI . I know I've read it somewhere before...

    ----------------
    Man, I guess I know diddly squat of this. Now I feel the need to seclude myself from the forums for some time.

    Thiking about it, I might have said many ignorant things in the forums before...
    ----------------

    Coming back to the topic, maybe reading Walden is better than taking another person's view of Thoureau.

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    Oh, I didn't see baby's post before. For some reason, I thought it was Romanticism. Yes, Transcendentalist was the movement.

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    You're right in that I haven't read much of Thoreau's work; this is based merely on the impression that I got from Emerson's recounting of his life.

    And yes, infering universal law from one fact is induction

    According to dictionary.com...

    Induction (logic): The process of deriving general principles from particular facts or instances.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    And yes, infering universal law from one fact is induction

    According to dictionary.com...

    Induction (logic): The process of deriving general principles from particular facts or instances.
    This is true, but you are again taking Emerson out of context. If you read Emerson's lectures, you will find out what specifically he means by "universal truth."

    My main qualm with your conjecture is that you cast Thoreau as a sensory-type, when anyone who is familiar with his writing, the movement he identified with, and the context of his life will note very strong intuitive preferences, which not only override anything sensory-proficient in his character, but provide a justification and motivation for them. I can concede to you that Thoreau's logic is indicative of Ti. HOWEVER, what Emerson is referring to deals specifically to the world of intuition; specifically, the "universal truths" of transcendentalism. It is in the context of this movement that Emerson knew Thoreau, and ust about everything the guy wrote of Thoreau presupposes that the listener/reader is familiar with the tenants of this school of philosophy.

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    Just because he supposedly "refers to the world of intuition" does not mean that he is an intuitive type. Type is not based on personal prefrences; while type may indicate preference, preference NEVER indicates type, especially in a way that's as abstract as you describe.

    In addition, you have yet to prove anything at all. Inductive thought and a propensity for fine motor skills are qualities that have been specifically attached to ST types. He also is noted to have shown the incredible attention to detail that is so characteristic of types. An interest in intuitive persuits is NOT always identified specifically with being an intuitive type.

    I would also argue that his logic is more indicitive of : he had an obsession with collecting facts and obtaining absolute data, and was methodical and consistent in his approach to gathering them.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Just because he supposedly "refers to the world of intuition" does not mean that he is an intuitive type.
    It indicates an higher likelyhood for him being intuitive than him being a sensor. It's totally intutile to keep arguing on a remote possibility that YOU MADE UP FROM NOWHERE.

    Type is not based on personal prefrences; while type may indicate preference, preference NEVER indicates type, especially in a way that's as abstract as you describe.
    Same as above. Preference does not indicate type with certainity, but there is an higher likelyhood for a certain type to have a preference for certain frame of references typical of the given type.

    So, two points for him being an intuitive, in spite of you trying to find a totally unrealistic way out.

    In addition, you have yet to prove anything at all.
    DING DING! FALLACY!
    The burden of the proof is yours, only yours. We are deconstructing and pointing out the holes of an argument YOU made.

    Inductive thought
    Inductive thought means nothing. Only Ni and Ti are deductive. Both Te and Ne are inductive. Besides, you cannot prove a point from a quote taken out of context. Indeed, in doing so you are reasoning inductively just like you think Thoreau did. So, if you think that Thoreau is a sensing type because of his inductive reasoning, you are a sensing type as well.

    and a propensity for fine motor skills are qualities that have been specifically attached to ST types. He also is noted to have shown the incredible attention to detail that is so characteristic of types. An interest in intuitive persuits is NOT always identified specifically with being an intuitive type.
    All INTps descriptions say that their way of working is slow, pedant and with a lot of attention to details.

    I would also argue that his logic is more indicitive of : he had an obsession with collecting facts and obtaining absolute data, and was methodical and consistent in his approach to gathering them.
    More stuff for him being INTp.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    He's ENTp just like everyone else. Duh.

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    Ok, so far we have:

    a) Inductive reasoning (Te or Ne)
    b) Attention to detail (Si or, apparently, INTp)
    c) Skill with hands (inconclusive, but pointing to an ST type of some sort)
    d) Pursuit of intuitive works (inconclusive, but pointing to an N)

    That points to IxTp.

    Anything else to consider?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I would add his skill with language. If he was great with his hands, he was at least equally poised as a wordsmith. (And yes, I realise this is subjective but no more subjective than Emerson's accounts of his manual dexterity and attention to detail. We have physical relics of both.)

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    Does eloquence really imply an intuitive type? I don't think there's any connection, really, but I'm certainly willing to consider one if it can be proven.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    It's true that only Intuitive types can use grandiose, ostentatious language.


    Actually, I would say that Intuitives are more inclined to use more poetic language, but that's not always true. But I'd say one thing that is more telling of his type is this quote,

    I stand in awe of my body, this matter to which I am bound has become so strange to me. I fear not spirits, ghosts, of which I am one-that my body might-but I fear bodies, I tremble to meet them. What is this Titan that has taken possession of me? Talk of mysteries-Think of our life in nature-daily to be shown matter, to come in contact with it-rocks, trees, wind on our cheeks! the solid earth! the actual world! the common sense! Contact! Contact! Who are we? where are we?
    I don't think most types would say that they are in"awe" of their bodies, or that it is "strange" to them. He is afraid of his own body, which I would say is defintaly more characteristic of Intuitive types, but I could be wrong. Unless, of course, he was an Extravert. I would imagine they are less intuned with their bodies than Introverts. How do you feel about this, Baby? Does what he say here sound like something an type would say? Are you afraid of your own body? He does then go on to talk about making contact with the outside world...

    Though, what confuses me is that I don't see an INTp having patience for things such as actually building up their own mansion, working with their hands, etc... I know that sounds like a stereotype, but a lot of what's been said here so far has been stereotypical...
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


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    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Does eloquence really imply an intuitive type? I don't think there's any connection, really, but I'm certainly willing to consider one if it can be proven.
    Well, it's no less indicative of an intuitive type than manual dexterity is indicative of a sensory type. Sure it isn't a faultless indicator of type, but nothing is. It implies that he was at least as likely to be intuitive, as sensory. I think Rocky's point tips the balance for me, prsonally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    I stand in awe of my body, this matter to which I am bound has become so strange to me. I fear not spirits, ghosts, of which I am one-that my body might-but I fear bodies, I tremble to meet them. What is this Titan that has taken possession of me? Talk of mysteries-Think of our life in nature-daily to be shown matter, to come in contact with it-rocks, trees, wind on our cheeks! the solid earth! the actual world! the common sense! Contact! Contact! Who are we? where are we?
    I don't think most types would say that they are in"awe" of their bodies, or that it is "strange" to them. He is afraid of his own body, which I would say is defintaly more characteristic of Intuitive types, but I could be wrong. Unless, of course, he was an Extravert. I would imagine they are less intuned with their bodies than Introverts. How do you feel about this, Baby? Does what he say here sound like something an type would say? Are you afraid of your own body? He does then go on to talk about making contact with the outside world...
    That's actually a very sound breakdown of that passage, Rocky. He says his body has become "strange" to him, indicating that he indentifies with something other than his body. Most sensing types are not afraid or detached from their bodies. Speaking as a type myself, I personally don't identify with my body so much. The body is the receptacle for the Self for me, personally, and I've always felt sort of restricted by and detached from it. Whether or not this is specifically a inlfuenced thought, I'm not quite sure, but it does indicate intuition vs. sensing to me.

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    I'll buy INTp. However, I still don't know what intuition has to do with writing. Brain Types gives evidence supported by brain chemistry that supports ST/EI types as being more likely to be dexterous and skilled with their hands; no such scientific evidence exists for a correlation between N/C types being better writers. BTI says that there is a correlation between NF/CE types being more eloquent in terms of spoken word, but this doesn't relate to Thoreau's written samples.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Default Henry David Thoreau

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    Suggests introversion?
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    I was thinking about this just recently...Definitely a sensor. Alpha SF.

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    I've always thought of him as ISFp.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    At the very least, some Si-valuing type. ISFp seems reasonable from what I know of him, but admittedly that's not a LOT.

    Edit: actually, after reading some of those quotes I'm not as certain of that anymore - INFp seems possible too.
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    SLI has always been my thought.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    dunno but i identified with him in my teens.

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    Thoreau is a personal hero of mine. I'm inclined to delta ST and second the vote for SLI.
    Moonlight will fall
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    SLI? No way. I would say SEI for sure.

    I know this is and old thread but still.

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