Life's a bitch and she's got me pussy whipped.
Same with me and IEEs, much less so than with EIIs. Even incredibly intelligent IEEs tend to sort of speak in broken fragments; they sort of 'pad' their way toward the point they're making and they seem to have this weird habit of interrupting themselves.
'You see it's like this....or maybe like this? Hmm, wait, let me think about it...ok, so if A is thus and B is thus, but then again, A is never really thus, is it? So...what I'm trying to say IS...'
i am flakey
tereg seems spacy to me
One of my EII friends describes me as a bit of a machine when I'm reading/writing (we studied together during our thesis year this year) -- I become dead to the world with my earphones in. She really liked creeping up next to me and staring at me and scaring the shit out of me -- I'm one of those jumpy heart-attack people. She'd never seen anyone tune out so entirely.
@unefille: I really liked your latest description about Ni vs. Ne. The one thing i would add is that I look very "in my head," as well. But, yeah, the difference is that I look more scattered and oblivious to physical reality, whereas Ni types look like they're existing on some imaginary planet in their own head. It's odd because I feel like Ni spaciness looks similar to mine when it's blocked with Te. For example, people are always commenting that my ILI dad and I have similar expressions. Ni blocked with Fe is really strange looking to me. It doesn't look "dorky," it looks....ODD. When Ni is blocked with Te, it's like the person is snapping into different trains of thought. When it's blocked with Fe, it's like the person is slipping into different PERSONAS, like they're acting or something. So so odd to me.
@sirena: Don't worry about the spaciness. Tbh, I used to be self conscious about mine but now I just think it's funny. This is probably spoken like a true Ne-valuer, heh, but I think that scatterdness is a sign of intelligence. When people assume I'm a moron because I'm so scattered I just think "ah you're so closed minded. you must just base things on image." I mean, even stupid people can "sound smart" if they tried. Please.........
i am flakey
<3 You're right. I like the way SLIs seem to always be looking to pin my scattered thoughts down for me. Like I'll be going on about something in 10 different directions and they'll just sit there and listen patiently all the while trying to pin down what the heck it is I'm trying to say. Sometimes they have this uncanny ability to state exactly what I was trying to say concisely, in a sentence or two. Sometimes I still end up leaving them confused as hell though.@sirena: Don't worry about the spaciness. Tbh, I used to be self conscious about mine but now I just think it's funny. This is probably spoken like a true Ne-valuer, heh, but I think that scatterdness is a sign of intelligence. When people assume I'm a moron because I'm so scattered I just think "ah you're so closed minded. you must just base things on image." I mean, even stupid people can "sound smart" if they tried. Please.........
Yes, I can be rather long-winded.
Understatement of the year.
Now as far as ENFj's go, I don't particularly have a problem understanding them with regards to written or spoken language. They are rather forthright and succinct in what they say which leaves little room for misinterpretation.
I suppose the misunderstanding is on a more... human level. I understand what it is that they do, maybe even why they do it. But I don't feel like I can connect with them in those regards. There's a human disconnect that seems to happen that I can't quite explain. So, I feel like I'm talking a different "language", that I can palpably sense when I'm not being understood (maybe with my motivations as an example) or that I'm not quite understanding them and their motivations.
I think it depends on the INTp.. I think the Ni ones are harder for me to understand. I actually have trouble paying attention for a long period of time, and tend to skim posts from many people of many types. But in general, i think what hinders understanding for me is feeling that the climate of the conversation is not welcoming.
My 10-year-old brother is an SLE. I understand him now that he has a good reason to act the way he does. My INTj brother is interresting to talk to, and my ISFp brother is a pushover. But the youngest has always been annoying because he's so stubborn...and so am I. He easily gets on my nerves, and threats don't work on him. The only way to get him to do what I want is to use a heap of logic or to bribe him. I ususlly don't have enough logic available, so I use the latter method. The problem is-he only accepts things that we both like, so I end up loosing something in the deal. Hostage Child mentioned writing, so I'd also like to comment that the only difference between my quasi brother's handwriting and mine is the direction we tilt our Ls.
I understand ENFjs writing and speaking, but it's the motivation for why they're saying or doing what they are doing that usually confuses me. We tend to misinterpret bad motives on each other a lot.
The only time I zone out is the Ni historical discussion...like how something has progressed over time throughout history (they sound very intelligent, but I zone out at that point).
The big problem I notice between ENFp and ENFj is this...when ENFjs get all wound up and Fe excited about something they kind of get lost in their own intense emotional world, and sometimes forget to consider the rest of the group. It's innocent from their perspective, and they usually apologize (a lot) later if they upset the group. But this can come across as selfish to the ENFp and the apology is just annoying, because we're forced to accept it, even if we don't want to. I figure, just don't do things that will upset others and there won't be a reason to apologize.
I knew an ENFj who forecefully insisted on leading a whole group of single girls into a male gay bar because she wanted to try it (she was the only one who wasn't out hunting for guys because she already had a BF). She didn't notice that NO one else wanted to go to this bar. Then she enjoyed talking to strangers (what did she care if they were gay? it was fun for her and she had a BF already) while we all looked at our watches and glared. When we suggested that we leave, she nodded, but stayed there for another 30 minutes before I finally got everyone to drag her out of there.
Not all ENFjs are that oblivious, but they can sometimes feel that they are right, and others should just agree with them, instead of first finding out the opinions of others. I think that's the biggest problem I have in communication with them.
Then I call them on this and get very frustrated, they get hurt that I'm criticizing and start to attack me. I get hurt at the attack, and it then escalates into ugliness. Not such a good relation in my opinion.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
Anyway, considering you KNEW the situation, and YOU went with it, that shows that you ACCEPTED the situation, even though it was GOING AGAINST what you felt was right.
What I think you need to do is shorten the time between things GOING AGAINST what you feel is right, and doing actions to change this situation.
Now, one thing I want to ask you. Is have you ever been conned, by a con artist.
You're right that I did go in the gay bar, despite not wanting to. Sure, I could have turned and walked away and wandered home late at night by myself, but it was safer to stick w/ the group. I figured we'd only stay for a few minutes -- since no one wanted to be there except for the ENFj. I waited a period of time to be polite, but I was the one who then insisted we leave.
Even if I "shorten the time between things GOING AGAINST what you feel is right, and doing actions to change this situation" it wouldn't change the fact that ENFjs and I don't get along. When I've reacted more quickly (instead of controlling myself) ENFjs tend to blow up at me, and me back at them. Just a bad relation in general.
So, I'm not really sure of your point.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
It's the game a lot of con artists seem to play; they'll play people along, and try to make it out as if the other person wanted to go in that direction .. until they've been conned - and then the con artist is off onto the next target. And the person who has been conned will come to distrust other people more, because they've been conned before.
So you're saying that everyone else wanted to go along. And that you'd be socially excluding yourself by commiting to a different path. So pretty much you're saying that the ENFJ had a lot more social influence than you, and your "friends" would abandon you, if you didn't want to do what the ENFJ wanted to do, and yet that very thing no-one else wanted to do. DOES THIS SOUND AS STUPID TO YOU, AS IT DOES TO ME?You're right that I did go in the gay bar, despite not wanting to. Sure, I could have turned and walked away and wandered home late at night by myself, but it was safer to stick w/ the group. I figured we'd only stay for a few minutes -- since no one wanted to be there except for the ENFj. I waited a period of time to be polite, but I was the one who then insisted we leave.
Yeah, I know you said that you don't get along. I'm just trying to "simplify" things... so that ENFJs can be less problematic for you.Even if I "shorten the time between things GOING AGAINST what you feel is right, and doing actions to change this situation" it wouldn't change the fact that ENFjs and I don't get along. When I've reacted more quickly (instead of controlling myself) ENFjs tend to blow up at me, and me back at them. Just a bad relation in general.
Lots of people tend to blow up at me. I get used to it myself. Like some people will blow up at me because I'm "arrogant" when I haven't actually done anything. Like I'm giving off an arrogant vibe. But like when that's happened before, I've found than in time, sometimes people can kind of come around, and be more "normal" again, and "apologise" for their reactiveness, and then they can talk about other people that they've acted negatively/harshly against, and how it's not really my problem, and it's about them .. and if I'm not careful it can get long....
Well my point is, you're saying on a forum about something that's offended you, and I thought that it was like you were waiting too long to act, as if somehow the world would magically change without you doing anything. And then it's like you're venting your frustration at things not working out the way you wanted them to, whilst you delayed your reaction. And so I'm thinking that you should have taken action earlier, so that you woludn't have had as much frustration-buildup, and then things would be fine.So, I'm not really sure of your point.
At the same time, I'm not sure why you're so concerned about the ENFJ blowing up. They like to blow up. They're emotionally unstable. And it's their reaction, you shouldn't let that control you.
I don't actually see 'not expressing what I want until later, thus pointing out that the EIE has made me do something I never wanted to in the first place' as self-control, I see it as passive, illogical and a major guilt-trip. That's probably why the EIE is blowing up at you. Not because you're 'dousing her fun' so to speak, but because you, ambivalently equivocated and let her lead you into a gay bar -- which, unless she held a gun to your head, was NOT an act of coercion, you could have just said NO -- and then pointed out that she was (essentially) being selfish and inconsiderate of everyone else. That's a MAJOR ouch for the EIE.
See, from my perspective, if I don't want to go somewhere, I don't go somewhere. Especially since you seem so certain that everyone else felt the same way: just hold your ground. If everyone sides with you, the EIE has to give in. She'll pout and grouse about how you guys are no fun, but who cares? She'll get over it. I mean, I'm all about making the group of people I'm with HAPPY, but I also like to get my way. If you make it clear to her (without any character digs - like the whole 'you have a BF and you're being selfish about what we single girls want' -- because them are fighting words to me) that you guys have a different idea of fun, she'll just adapt her will. Unless she's deranged. If she's deranged, why are you friends?
Ergh, these things are so hard to manage. When I go out, if the group is equivocating and indecisive, I just take over. It would hurt me so much if everyone just nodded and went along with everything I said, or at least, didn't resist, then went away and was like 'OMG, she's SO INCONSIDERATE.' If everyone is like NO (strongly and with meaning, as in, not moving to follow her) and she throws a temper tantrum, then um, that's not an EIE v IEE relation thing, that's SHE CRAZY.
why on earth is my best friend IEI, while i am EII ??
we don't always understand each other but at least, we trust each other and are willing to sit and listen as long as it takes.
we often have a similar feeling of inadequacy that brought us together in the 1st place.
He's the most tolerant person i've ever met. i can come with any of my "spacey" EII things, he'll never frown at me. Or i may not be EII ? makes me wonder !
i share values with any NF anyway. The quadra difference comes into play in social easiness. The only one who'll me me laugh effortlessly is the IEE. i just have to watch them speak and smile, and i feel good.
and mercutio, even though you're supposed to be my conflictor, i have to admit that you are right : if we don't speak out loud, we can't expect everyone to understand.
I call it the " dead mass tactic" : you think that if you play the inert body, the carrier will get tired before reaching his goal.
But remember, a group has a will on its own. It just takes a slight impulse and a little slope for the package to be soon unstoppable.
whenever the dog and i see each other we both stop where we are. we regard each other with a mixture of sadness and suspicion and then we feign indifference.
Jerry, The Zoo Story by Edward Albee
Ah. I completely connect with that. Like when you're walking down the street just thinking, no, living something within your own head and you suddenly realise you've crossed about three roads without looking first?
I do that fairly often. Perhaps Ni will be weeded out by Darwinian processes one day
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
This brings me forward into something else actually- I really deeply connect with music- most of the times that things such as the above occur I will be listening to some really inspiring song, but for me, it's the lyrics and the composition of another world or a memory brought back to life within that music that sends me into a trance. Does that make sense? Like, I will connect to the inner story or meaning behind those lyrics and how they are pertinent to my own life, or how I can relate them to someone I know, sometimes even just as they are. And suddenly I am there, in this world of imagination. And then suddenly, A CAR!
And I go "Oh, that's right, I'm walking city blocks on my way to work. Huh. Can I go back to my world now? It's much more emotionally vivid. Sigh. Reality."
Am I mistaking that for Si, or am I mistaking that for Ni?
Actually, I'm going to include some of the music that is currently transporting me.
A few examples:
Last edited by Khola; 11-11-2008 at 08:16 AM.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
nothing helpful, but I love that first song... its magical
I know, I adore it.
It describes to me the purest of loves- innocent, vulnerable, open.
Pure surrender, beyond the risk of social self destruction.
Hello, my name is Bee. Pleased to meet you .
ii find it interesting to notice the way different peopel walk down the street, in pairs, or in groups.
i've noticed with myself it can vary a bit. like with some people we'll walk close together, then skip apart when navigating through people. and then come together again. with some groups, i'll stand ahead, or behind, or slight to the side. although sometimes with groups of three i'll kind of stand in the middle or there'll be alternating positions.
the thing is i pay attention to a degree, but sometimes i don't pay that much attention.
i remember when i was young, sometimes people would get all worked up as i kind of went through the middle of them, didn't hold doors open, went sideways through closing doors rather than open them more, jumped. made sudden changes in speed/momentum etc.
i also used to do things, like i'd move really fst and really quickly, then i'd suddenly slam my foot into the ground beside them. some people would kind of jump, and some would find it kind of amusing.
the thing is to a degree i can still act that way a bit just in a lighter more moderate way, but now days i'm starting to notice how little attention i can pay.
likewhen i was young, i remember things like some girl would wave at me, i wouldn't pay attention, focused on something else, they'll react negatively, someone would "inform" me that i had created such a reaction. i'd then be like "i don't have time", "i didn't notice" etc.
anyway, that whole thing about how it hurts others was told to me, and i had the cocky attitude of "if it hurts so much don't do it" - at the same time i often was "friendly" towards people who didn't respond well, and i could be like, if you want to be nice be nice, if you want to be friendly, be friendly, if you don't give a shit, don't pretend you do.
anyway, that kind of bit me in the ass because then you get "nice" situations like someone saying he doesn't give a shit about you to the other person.
so anyway, i tried being nice and friendly to lots of people. and then i found this other thing out - if you're nice to someone, and then you stop, they can think thatthey hvae done something to piss you off.
so, i learnt to be indifferent, to kind of be "equal" in my interactions. so like if i was "nice" to one girl, i'd suddenly be nice to multiple other grils at the same time etc.
then i'd get "nice" things like, "he's nice to everyone", "you're not special".
lah lah .. anyway.. i was goingsomewhere withthis.. oh yeah.. my main problem with consistent attention is with hot girls. they can screw around my "general" attention thing. it's like however much I tired to hide to, people that knew me would be like "you're being weird", and then i'd be like how am i being weird, and i didn't seem to be able to get much better of answer then "you're not saying much", "there's a silence that surrounds you", "i don't feel like i'm that important to you right now" or other kind of mediocre responses.
anyway so i often kind of "broke" connections with other people when there was some girl i liked or something, and i'd "find myself" in a conversation with her, not quite sure how i got into it. and then i'd start to wonder how it was going, and then she'd seem to get kind of anxious or something, and so i'd find something external/neutral to divert towards.
anyway, i've always found girls can completely fuck up my attention at times. sometimes so much, that i get these strange idea of getting other people to track things for me because i'm struggling to keep up.
then i'd find all those "strange" things that seem to happen way more when i like a girl, like suddenly people will kind of want to "help" me, andbe really nice, show that they know me, relate to me more etc.
anyway, it screws with my awareness of attention.
the other thing that screws with it is when i get obsessed with something else. and sometimes it's like people complain about me being unreachable, distant, preoccupied etc.
and i can kind of sya what's on my mind but (most) people not only won't want to listen but they'll try and make what i wsay out to be different than what it is.
anyway, i as going somewhere with this. i often seem to notice things like when people move out of my way, when people slow down their movement, speed up their movement etc.
but i get lost on a few things - like i used to kind of go up to someone who was "busy" doing something, and it's like their attention would "flip" and someoneelse would remind me that they were busy, and wouldn't want to impose on others etc.
and it's like with people whowere busy, occupied etc, it's like i'd often just kind of act as if was no big deal.
although some people would get *really* pissed off, and those people i learnt were often the selfish ones, who would always be busy looking out for themselves.
so i'd play all these silly games like, i'd go and interrupt someone for a minor reason to see how they'd react..
so anyway from all of these games, i got good at being able to find who it'd be easy to ask for things, and how easy.
then on top of that i'd go and start "balancing", and if someone was bitter over small things then i'd just kind of cut them out. and if they reacted adversely then i'd tell other people that i'd kill them if they were friendly towards this other person. although in reality i'd usually just put my hand on their shoulder orsomething.
so i'd create this "light" path of "easy" and then i could keep things going through me, and other people didn't have to risk rejection as much and so forth.
now days it's nothinglike that but hey.
now i just kind of don't pay attention to most, but pay attention to a few.
and that includes walkingdown the street. hell i hardly even remember peoples names.