View Poll Results: which is the worse pairing: childlike & victim or victim & caring?

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  • childlike & victim is worse

    14 35.00%
  • victim & caring is worse

    19 47.50%
  • they're equally bad

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Thread: which is the worse : childlike & victim or victim & caring?

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    redbaron's Avatar
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    Default which is the worse : childlike & victim or victim & caring?

    vote and then explain why you think so.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I dated a victim for a long time, like a year and a half or there-abouts. It was OK until the end. It certainly wasn't awful. He dated an SEI after me - his conflictor - and that did appear awful but I imagine it would have been better with a caregiver other than his conflictor. I think that victims and caregivers have generally worse relationshpis (conflictor, supervisor, etc.) than infantiles and victims (like we were benefactor/beneficiary), but I haven't looked that closely at all the specifics.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I think victim-caregiver is probably worse.

    Personally, infantile sounds the least attractive to me. I imagine aggressor-infantile would be pretty bad, though. But doesn't everyone think I'm an INFp victim anyway? Oh well.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    I think victim-caregiver is probably worse.

    Personally, infantile sounds the least attractive to me. I imagine aggressor-infantile would be pretty bad, though. But doesn't everyone think I'm an INFp victim anyway? Oh well.
    infantile sounds the worst to me also! By far.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    with victim-caregiver, the caregiver is forced to take the lead. And maybe he/she doesn't do it as aggressively as the victim wants, but can learn.

    I was thinking that with victim-infantile, who on earth would take the lead? I cannot even imagine this scenario.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I was thinking that with victim-infantile, who on earth would take the lead? I cannot even imagine this scenario.
    I guess it would depend on extroversion/introversion at that point?

    I could see an ENTj taking the lead with an INFj, for instance.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    I guess it would depend on extroversion/introversion at that point?

    I could see an ENTj taking the lead with an INFj, for instance.
    good point. in fact, I have friends who I'm pretty sure are ENTj-INFj. Hmmm.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    good point. in fact, I have friends who I'm pretty sure are ENTj-INFj. Hmmm.
    Let's spy on them.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    I didn't have any particular problems with my ENTj boyfriend until the end. I felt like he was hypercritical, and I felt like he was trying to pick fights all the time. He thought I was "high maintenance". But we had a lot of fun for a long time.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    Let's spy on them.
    heehee
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I'm married to an infantile (ILE) and my mother is a caregiver (ESE).
    I was under the impression that infantile/victim applied to erotic attitudes. I could be mistaken, however.

    I mean, I don't think of my SLE dad and my LSI sister as "aggressors" or my mother as an "infantile." Gross.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    I was under the impression that infantile/victim applied to erotic attitudes. I could be mistaken, however.

    I mean, I don't think of my SLE dad and my LSI sister as "aggressors" or my mother as an "infantile." Gross.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    When it comes to "leading" I'm not sure I get you. Do you want to be lead? I prefer complete "freedom". I rather feel aggressive at the thought of anyone deciding anything for me. I think relations are about give and take. One part gives something, the other another thing. My husband wants my Fe and begs for Si. I like his Ti and beg for Se. I think the draining part reveals itself when I prod for Se and by that, ruins his Si, or the other way around.
    yes, I prefer to be lead. I want him to decide stuff. I don't want him looking to me to tell him what I want. That's funny, it's like opposite of you!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Of course!!!

    I just thought of having a person like my mother as a partner.... It would drain me like nothing else. (I have seen her interact with my father, so I know how she works)
    well, if you were married to an ESE, he wouldn't be just like your mother of course! I mean, there are some ways in which they'd be the same but... I mean, I can't imagine thinking that if I were married to an EII, it would be like being with my mother!! Just having a hard time thinking about it that way I guess.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    (I have seen her interact with my father, so I know how she works)
    No seriously, you don't! lol

    If you've met some ENXjs, for example, that last thing you'd call them is "victim" when you watch them interact. Erotic attitudes come out at a more personal level, imo.
    maybe a saint is just a dead prick with a good publicist
    maybe tommorow's statues are insecure without their foes
    go ask the frog what the scorpion knows

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    Victim-Caregiver is awful, IMO, whilst Victim-Infantile isn't too bad - ultimately unfulfilling and sort of lukewarm, but not too bad.

    The thing about Caregivers is that they almost seem to be wanting to infantilise me (Si-creatives more than Si-base). They want so badly for me to need them or to demonstrate some form of dependence and to respond to their efforts by trying really hard to follow their example. Instead, my response is sort of mild irritation to full blown rage. They seem to see a lot of things that they try to do for me as things that I want but simply can't provide for myself -- whilst I'm trying really really hard to convince them that it's not relevant whether or not I can't provide it for myself -- I don't want it in the first place.

    They're great at what they do, but they don't seem to be able to understand that if I wanted help - I would ASK FOR IT. That even if I look like seven tons of retard flailing around, I don't want them to step in and assist me. And that if they do, they shouldn't expect gratitude or thanks, really.

    They don't understand the concept of 'putting up' with 'someone helping you'. It's not that I'm an ungrateful person - if I ask for something and it manifests, I'm a million thank-you cards of grateful. But I do sort of resent people doing things for me that I haven't asked for and then getting upset when I'm not spilling with joy or sort of throw my hands up and whatever them. It works for infantiles because I've noticed that they tend to not ask for help even when they want it -- they just struggle along, and so they're very grateful to anyone who provides them with assistance; someone who's always thinking of their comfort and well-being and helping them attain that.
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allie View Post
    I was under the impression that infantile/victim applied to erotic attitudes. I could be mistaken, however.

    I mean, I don't think of my SLE dad and my LSI sister as "aggressors" or my mother as an "infantile." Gross.
    It isnt' just about erotic attitudes. First, I'd rather they called them "romantic attitudes" because it's as much about courtship and that kind of thing as anything. But it's even bigger than that because caregiver types are that way with everybody, and infantile types are a bit helpless all the time. And aggressors are naturally a bit aggressive when compared to the rest of us, and victims . . . well they like to be around aggressive people anyway.

    So, when my husband, my ESE mother-in-law, and my SEI father-in-law are all here, there is a flurry of caregiving around me. They all seem to pick up on my helplessness and they all want to help me with various things. I have friends who are caregivers and it's the same - I volunteer every Wednesday and they pack extra lunch for me all the time, all sorts of stuff, and I'm sure it's because they pick up on me being infantile. It isn't specific to romantic relationships, and it certainly isn't specific to erotic behavior. In fact, if anything I think people vary their erotic behavior more than other behavior because most people like variety in the bedroom and might not think about variety in day-to-day life as much.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    I get your point, and of course you are right... But I think I do understand my mother's style of romance quite well, and interacting in a family is not like interacting in society in general. One of her main drives is that wants to "help", and I don't want to be "helped", I want to be pushed to help myself. I know this is how she interacted with my father as well, and it's one of the main reasons they are not married anymore.

    And even if I do have an idea, one person doesn't make it a universal rule. My mother might be different from other ESEs. Individual differences and different values sure play a role in this.
    just out of curiosity, what type is your dad?
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    They don't understand the concept of 'putting up' with 'someone helping you'. It's not that I'm an ungrateful person - if I ask for something and it manifests, I'm a million thank-you cards of grateful. But I do sort of resent people doing things for me that I haven't asked for and then getting upset when I'm not spilling with joy or sort of throw my hands up and whatever them. It works for infantiles because I've noticed that they tend to not ask for help even when they want it -- they just struggle along, and so they're very grateful to anyone who provides them with assistance; someone who's always thinking of their comfort and well-being and helping them attain that.
    unefille, you are really great at articulating this stuff.

    okay, so the part I bolded is one of my MAJOR issues with my ESE husband. Not in the bedroom, but as Slackermom said, these attitudes manifest themselves elsewhere as well. I think more than anything my husband thinks I should be grateful for all these things he's doing for me all the time (like around the house). And I'm like "well, I didn't ask you to do ANYthing so why are you even doing them and then getting mad that you're tired and you have no time for hobbies or whatever and then getting even madder that I'm not falling over with thanks?" lol Seriously. That's the nail on the head right there. I should make him read this. But I do find it interesting that the EROTIC attitudes don't always have to do with sex. haha
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I don't think caregiver-victim relationships are that bad as many people here suggest them to be. Or at least not from my experience. Or maybe they tend to be less pleasant/satisfactory for the victim? One of the easiest-going relationship I've had in my life has been with a victim, an IEI.

    And by the way, I think SLIs tend to be more passive, less help-intrusive caregivers than other Si types. While the care taking tendencies are still present, I don't think an SLI is your typical "caregiver".
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I don't think caregiver-victim relationships are that bad as many people here suggest them to be. Or at least not from my experience. Or maybe they tend to be less pleasant/satisfactory for the victim? One of the easiest-going relationship I've had in my life has been with a victim, an IEI.

    And by the way, I think SLIs tend to be more passive, less help-intrusive caregivers than other Si types. While the care taking tendencies are still present, I don't think an SLI is your typical "caregiver".
    I think accepting-Si types are less "in your face" about it than creative-Si types.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark View Post
    I don't think caregiver-victim relationships are that bad as many people here suggest them to be. Or at least not from my experience. Or maybe they tend to be less pleasant/satisfactory for the victim? One of the easiest-going relationship I've had in my life has been with a victim, an IEI.

    And by the way, I think SLIs tend to be more passive, less help-intrusive caregivers than other Si types. While the care taking tendencies are still present, I don't think an SLI is your typical "caregiver".
    I could see that. I think that at the current moment, my "caregiver" ESE is upset with me for not appreciating all these things he does for me, when I don't really want him doing these things at all. I feel like he does them because he wants them done himself. (like the laundry or cleaning up the kitchen) and then expects me to be jumping for joy since he's doing all this work. I'm constantly telling him to relax, stop doing all this stuff but he won't listen. It's getting old.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    I wonder how an ISFp would be.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    So, when my husband, my ESE mother-in-law, and my SEI father-in-law are all here, there is a flurry of caregiving around me. They all seem to pick up on my helplessness and they all want to help me with various things.
    It's funny how an EIE I know would always take the practical help from my SEI uncle over mine. When I offer to help she sort of ignores me and I think this is because she dislikes my serious "business-like" approach to problems where she needs to spill out the facts without the emotional attitude. Other things seem to be more important to her than efficiently solving the problem. The fact that I (unlike my uncle) almost never ask or require anything in return doesn't seem to help either.
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I could see that. I think that at the current moment, my "caregiver" ESE is upset with me for not appreciating all these things he does for me, when I don't really want him doing these things at all. I feel like he does them because he wants them done himself. (like the laundry or cleaning up the kitchen) and then expects me to be jumping for joy since he's doing all this work. I'm constantly telling him to relax, stop doing all this stuff but he won't listen. It's getting old.
    I have the same thing going on with my Fe EJ mother. (But I'm sure the "things" are different)
    “Whether we fall by ambition, blood, or lust, like diamonds we are cut with our own dust.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly
    You've done yourself a huge favor developmentally by mustering the balls to do something really fucking scary... in about the most vulnerable situation possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I wonder how an ISFp would be.
    They are more relaxed about it. My father-in-law, and an ex-boyfriend (from a long time ago now), both did things for me, but it was very relaxed and it almost felt like they were doing things they wanted to do and it just happened to benefit me. I should add that it's the same way with my ISTp husband.
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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    It isnt' just about erotic attitudes. First, I'd rather they called them "romantic attitudes" because it's as much about courtship and that kind of thing as anything. ... It isn't specific to romantic relationships, and it certainly isn't specific to erotic behavior. In fact, if anything I think people vary their erotic behavior more than other behavior because most people like variety in the bedroom and might not think about variety in day-to-day life as much.
    I was going to write that as well - I agree. I think 'erotic attitudes' is sort of misleading, I sort of use 'caregiver', 'aggressor', 'infantile' and 'victim' as short hand for Si-ego, Se-ego, Ne-ego and Ni-ego respectively more than anything else; I think the behaviours are clearly marked in the way that people generally interact.

    But it's even bigger than that because caregiver types are that way with everybody, and infantile types are a bit helpless all the time. And aggressors are naturally a bit aggressive when compared to the rest of us, and victims . . . well they like to be around aggressive people anyway.
    lol @ the bolded.

    I was having a conversation with an SLE the other day and I really didn't notice any particular aggressiveness, to be honest. I suppose if I stopped to think about it, I would have noticed that he was being somewhat more...forthright than most people. I just thought he was very direct with his opinions. After we parted ways, the EII was with started 'freaking out' (to me). He seemed to have an almost irrational reaction to the SLE, insisting that the SLE was too abrasive to really have a civil conversation with and that the SLE was impossible to engage with, because he had his own opinions and was completely set in them and just wanted to talk about the things he wanted to talk about - and was incredibly abrasive and just made the atmosphere very tense and uncomfortable.

    And I just blinked because none of this had even occurred to me. I told the EII if he wanted to the SLE to calm down, he should have just 'Look, we've finished talking about that already, let's drop it.' And the EII sort of made a face. I could tell that the idea of saying that to the SLE made him uncomfortable.

    Later on, another girl (ESE I think, I'm not sure) said that when she and the EII were talking to the SLE, he faced them and they had their backs to the wall and she actually felt really physically scared of him - and he's not really very tall or particularly large either!

    It's these sort of experiences that make me realise why Se-egos are called 'aggressors' otherwise, I don't think of them as particularly 'aggressive' - certainly not enough for me to notice most of the time. It was a really eye opening experience to see how a EII responds to an SLE in direct interaction.
    Last edited by unefille; 10-29-2008 at 01:50 AM.
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    As an EIE victim I think caregiver annoys me A whole lot more than infantile, I really dont mind infantile actually, but i do think caregiver can be annoying about the current comfort of the enviornment, and i see them more judgemental and lack of future planning than infantile.
    (D)IEE~FI-(C)SLE~Ni E-5w4(Sp/Sx)/7w8(So/Sp)/9w1(sp/sx)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    This is all why I said, "aggressive when compared to the rest of us." I'm not really "infantile" either.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    I think Infantile-Victim is worse. Btw, I am talking solely about sex here. Hooking up with INxP's is painfully awkward to me. As friends, however, I like their company. OTOH, hooking up with an ESTP is not bad at all, though I don't want them to actually befriend me.

    Victim-Caregiver and Infantile-Agressor is not bad; it's just not ideal. Because bascially you can give your partner what s/he wants (since it's in your ID), you just don't naturally want to. Also, in those 2 relationships there's a clear dominant and subordinate, which is more natural in the way that any Extrovert-Introvert pairing is natural.

    Victim-Infantile and Aggressor-Caregiver is awkward as hell, IMO. This is because the person feels forced to live in his Super-Ego functions, which are weak and unvalued. I think it's the worst when one of the partners has the "desired" element as his PoLR. So, in Victim- Infantile: INxJ's because they have Se PoLR and ENxJ's because they have Si-PoLR would have the worst experience. Probably ENxPs and INxPs wouldn't terribly mind the hookup, since they can just play into their Role. In Aggressor-Caregiver: ISxJs with Ne-PoLR and ESxJs with Ni-PoLR would have it the worst. So, again, the irrationals would fair okay in any situation.

    I think this is one of those cases where your PoLR is hit when someone expects you to USE it. It's not hit when someone else has it in their leading and expects you to APPRECIATE it.
    Last edited by Ritella; 10-29-2008 at 04:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I was having a conversation with an SLE the other day and I really didn't notice any particular aggressiveness, to be honest. I suppose if I stopped to think about it, I would have noticed that he was being somewhat more...forthright than most people. I just thought he was very direct with his opinions. After we parted ways, the EII was with started 'freaking out' (to me). He seemed to have an almost irrational reaction to the SLE, insisting that the SLE was too abrasive to really have a civil conversation with and that the SLE was impossible to engage with, because he had his own opinions and was completely set in them and just wanted to talk about the things he wanted to talk about - and was incredibly abrasive and just made the atmosphere very tense and uncomfortable.

    And I just blinked because none of this had even occurred to me. I told the EII if he wanted to the SLE to calm down, he should have just 'Look, we've finished talking about that already, let's drop it.' And the EII sort of made a face. I could tell that the idea of saying that to the SLE made him uncomfortable.

    Later on, another girl (ESE I think, I'm not sure) said that when she and the EII were talking to the SLE, he faced them and they had their backs to the wall and she actually felt really physically scared of him - and he's not really very tall or particularly large either!

    It's these sort of experiences that make me realise why Se-egos are called 'aggressors' otherwise, I don't think of them as particularly 'aggressive' - certainly not enough for me to notice most of the time. It was a really eye opening experience to see how a EII responds to an SLE in direct interaction.
    that was really interesting. I know an EII who feels the same way about the SLE I know. I can tell just by looking at her when she's in the same room with him, that he intimidates her. And he's NOT intimidating either physically or verbally (at least, not to me). I think it's because he exudes this particular sort of confidence. When he's trying to be friendly, it comes across as aggressive even though he doesn't mean for it to seem that way. His casual informal manner is partly what turns her off I think. Plus he knows everyone, he's chummy, uses nicknames and catch-phrases or something. I don't know. Anyway, I love it but she wrinkles her nose and backs away slowly.
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    The way I see it, when you start talking about caregiver, infantile, .... you are talking almost exclusively about the person's attitude toward sex. Romantic relationships, courtship, feelings toward someone, etc. is a combination of all of the elements, so it doesn't make sense to ask whether these types make okay "pairings" in terms of a relationship; just like, I wouldn't ask whether an Fi-ego and an Fe-ego would make a better "pairing" in a relationship than an Fi-ego and a Ti-ego.
    I could be wrong about this, but I think that the reason why caregiver/infantile/aggressor/victim became popular is because it's a dichotomy that (almost exclusively) can determine sexual compatibility. This is why we don't really care about noun names for all the other dichotomies.
    And, I could be wrong on this, too, but I really do think that just on a basis of sexual compatibility, the dichotomies (and their compatibility) is very accurate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    The way I see it, when you start talking about caregiver, infantile, .... you are talking almost exclusively about the person's attitude toward sex. Romantic relationships, courtship, feelings toward someone, etc. is a combination of all of the elements, so it doesn't make sense to ask whether these types make okay "pairings" in terms of a relationship; just like, I wouldn't ask whether an Fi-ego and an Fe-ego would make a better "pairing" in a relationship than an Fi-ego and a Ti-ego.
    I could be wrong about this, but I think that the reason why caregiver/infantile/aggressor/victim became popular is because it's a dichotomy that (almost exclusively) can determine sexual compatibility. This is why we don't really care about noun names for all the other dichotomies.
    And, I could be wrong on this, too, but I really do think that just on a basis of sexual compatibility, the dichotomies (and their compatibility) is very accurate.
    I dunno. My husband and I are pretty darned sexually compatible. Even if I think he does too much work around the house. Then again, it's not like I have a lot of experience with others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I dunno. My husband and I are pretty darned sexually compatible. Even if I think he does too much work around the house. Then again, it's not like I have a lot of experience with others.
    Well that's good! I'm curious, what's your husband's type?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Well that's good! I'm curious, what's your husband's type?
    ESE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    ESE.
    Aww. cute. I <3 ESEs.
    And yeah, that actually supports my hypothesis, because I think Victim-Caregiver should be good (just like Infantile-Aggressor). You both basically have what the other person wants; it's just in your Id rather than Ego.
    Last edited by Ritella; 10-29-2008 at 04:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    Well that's good! I'm curious, what's your husband's type?
    Not only ESE... but the closest person in the entire world to cracka he's ever heard of.

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    I think there are all these other factors too, especially who is male and who is female.

    (I'm a girl) and my aggressor ex happened to be a very sweet guy and was only slightly agressive..never in a "scary" way. No problem there. I can see if the guy was more like Rambo or something I might be not so happy..

    And victims..I don't see the problem there either. I had a victim ex and I was actually sorta surprised because I expected him, as a victim, to want someone else to lead. But I never got that vibe at all. He seemed to like to take the lead and was actually more agressive than the aggressor. He never seemed to want me to "take charge" -- in any area of life actually.

    So I think it comes down to the actual types/who is male and who is female/gender roles/whatever works. Of course, in general, I do agree with the theory though.
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    y'know what this reminds me of,

    is that i used to say that people should "take advantage" and that it "discourages" help by being "thankful", and that you should just act as if it's no big deal, and just be "easy" about if you want to be helped.

    the more you "worry", or are unsure over whether you want to be helped or not, the more that other people should be cautious about helping you.

    like - when i helped someone and someone was thankful, i'd say don't be thankful, it's no big deal, etc .. and it's like i had the way of seeing it that by helping others you're really helping yourself .. and if you're not then you'll want "gratification"

    anyway, the turn side of this is that when i disappeared, sometimes people would be kind of like telling me about the problems that they experienced in by absence, rather than saying that they missed me or anything

    so then i was thinking about people i've known, who have said things like "everyone wants me to do this (something else), but i'm going to do this .. " and i'd start to think about how much they considered what other people wanted. and that i think people should consider what they want, and how to make it happen rather than putting the onus on someone else.

    and yet, i'd precisely try to get the onus of other people to be put on me, so that *i* would gain a feeling of control, and flexibility..

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