Beta's Beat

[Ezra]

Look how dead this subforum is! Only dinki is making an effort.

Please, don't let this forum become the Babylon of forums.

OH, HEAR US, ISHTAR!

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Lala. Why can't everybody be as cool as me?

[sigma]

Look how dead this subforum is! Only dinki is making an effort.

Please, don't let this forum become the Babylon of forums.

OH, HEAR US, ISHTAR!

Positive Psychology movement is "discovering" and interesting thing... people using their "signature strengths" are happier and the have a test and everything and I think they try to reinvent the wheel.

Anyway... let's talk a little bit about Socionics view on strengths and how someone who has a certain type might use his/hers strength to obtain a better feeling of self-efficacy.

[sigma]

also, did I mention that steering a person to be happier make it healthier? Research in Positive Psychology proved scientifically (double blind studies and all) that optimism and happiness helps considerably in curing cancer.

[Ezra]

What the fuck are you talking about?

[sigma]

What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about making the world happier!

[Ezra]

No point or need. The world will always have some level of shit in it.

[sigma]

No point or need. The world will always have some level of shit in it.

True, but I prefer a world with less shit... and raising the happiness level of a large number of people could lead to less shit.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Actually the shit is how we learn though. You can choose to simply be happy in all sorts of situations. There were a few happy jews in the holocaust believe it or not. So even though I know you mean well and I believe in your movement, what is there to really accomplish? You can't do it for a person.

The truth is happiness is really easy. It's just a choice away.

[dbmmama]

Actually the shit is how we learn though. You can choose to simply be happy in all sorts of situations. There were a few happy jews in the holocaust believe it or not. So even though I know you mean well and I believe in your movement, what is there to really accomplish? You can't do it for a person.

The truth is happiness is really easy. It's just a choice away.

exactly.

[redbaron]

I kinda needed to hear this today. so thanks for reminding me.

[betterthan]

^-^!

WORDDD.

[idealistichick]

I don't think that its only the Beta section that is dead. The entire forum has been pretty dead for a while.

[dbmmama]

CONTRAST is the only way to know you're alive! Bring it on! "That which doesn't kill you only makes you stronger." I could go on...I needed to hear this today too.

[sigma]

The truth is happiness is really easy. It's just a choice away.

That's like saying: "It's easy to win archery contest, you just have to hit the middle circle of the target!" and indeed, a master archer will hit it consistently from small distances while a beginner will hit it only by chance.

The whole field of Positive Psychology is teaching people how to "hold the bow", "how to target", "how to release the arrow", "how to control their breathing" so that they hit the target more consistently.

[Lotus]

That's like saying: "It's easy to win archery contest, you just have to hit the middle circle of the target!" and indeed, a master archer will hit it consistently from small distances while a beginner will hit it only by chance.

That's a terrible analogy. Controlling your internal state is much different from controlling external objects. I can choose not to be upset about something; however, I cannot choose whether a bow hits a target.

[sigma]

That's a terrible analogy. Controlling your internal state is much different from controlling external objects. I can choose not to be upset about something; however, I cannot choose whether a bow hits a target.

Maybe is terrible... I don't know.... but I do know this.... the arrow will hit the target because of what YOU do to the bow! You can control the way you shoot that arrow. In order to be able to control it ... you need to master archery.

In theory you can choose to be happy... but if you did not master how to alter your thinking... you will fail! If everyone would natively be able to control their inner state you will not have this wide spread epidemics of depression.

[Ezra]

There were a few happy jews in the holocaust believe it or not.

A lot of Holocaust survivors are Eights. Also, because of Israel/Palestine conflict, they are Eights. Jews have gone through so much shit.

[Ezra]

I don't think that its only the Beta section that is dead. The entire forum has been pretty dead for a while.

Yeah but I only really care about this subforum, because it is my home.

It's dead because people like you don't post enough.

[idealistichick]

Yeah but I only really care about this subforum, because it is my home.

It's dead because people like you don't post enough.

Okay Ezra I'll start posting more so I'm not one of those people

[redbaron]

A lot of Holocaust survivors are Eights. Also, because of Israel/Palestine conflict, they are Eights. Jews have gone through so much shit.

Really? That's super interesting.

[Rubicon]

That's a terrible analogy. Controlling your internal state is much different from controlling external objects. I can choose not to be upset about something; however, I cannot choose whether a bow hits a target.

How is controlling your internal state different from controlling external objects? The difference is only really a difference in knowledge of what you're controlling. You probably have a better understanding of your internal state than external objects, so it's easier for you to control. I think sigma's analogy is a valid one. "Make a choice to be happy." That's like someone telling a sick person to simply choose health over sickness. Well, duh. But what do I have to do? Just choose. What - you mean I don't have to put any work in myself? You mean I don't have to sort through the stacks of rubbish out there pertaining to health and try to determine what is valid and what isn't? You mean I don't have to have a good knowledge of how my body reacts to things and what it best responds to? You mean I don't have to have the endurance and willpower necessary to get through the bad times, the ability to constantly keep the vision of my goal in mind?

So telling someone to just "choose to be happy" is grossly simplifying what the process entails (just like the archery contest), comes across as smug and patronising, and is especially insulting to those who aren't very aware of their internal states and what does and doesn't affect them.

[dbmmama]

How is controlling your internal state different from controlling external objects? The difference is only really a difference in knowledge of what you're controlling. You probably have a better understanding of your internal state than external objects, so it's easier for you to control. I think sigma's analogy is a valid one. "Make a choice to be happy." That's like someone telling a sick person to simply choose health over sickness. Well, duh. But what do I have to do? Just choose. What - you mean I don't have to put any work in myself? You mean I don't have to sort through the stacks of rubbish out there pertaining to health and try to determine what is valid and what isn't? You mean I don't have to have a good knowledge of how my body reacts to things and what it best responds to? You mean I don't have to have the endurance and willpower necessary to get through the bad times, the ability to constantly keep the vision of my goal in mind?

So telling someone to just "choose to be happy" is grossly simplifying what the process entails (just like the archery contest), comes across as smug and patronising, and is especially insulting to those who aren't very aware of their internal states and what does and doesn't affect them.

i can see how that would be for someone who isn't aware of their internal states. but, for those that are, THAT reminder is exactly what works for us. at least i know it is for me. manipulating my internal states and perception is exactly what "works" for me. i can and have instantly changed my health by changing my perception of health. i can and have instantly changed many things in my life by changing my perception internally. it takes a VERY STRONG WILL to do that, i believe. i used to do that strong will outwardly and push and push others but have learned to use my will internally and the POWER that it yields ROCKS! i'm sorry if that sounds smug, but, i wouldn't choose any other way. as you wouldn't choose any other way than what makes sense to you.

[redbaron]

i can see how that would be for someone who isn't aware of their internal states. but, for those that are, THAT reminder is exactly what works for us. at least i know it is for me. manipulating my internal states and perception is exactly what "works" for me. i can and have instantly changed my health by changing my perception of health. i can and have instantly changed many things in my life by changing my perception internally. it takes a VERY STRONG WILL to do that, i believe. i used to do that strong will outwardly and push and push others but have learned to use my will internally and the POWER that it yields ROCKS! i'm sorry if that sounds smug, but, i wouldn't choose any other way. as you wouldn't choose any other way than what makes sense to you.

Yes, often all I need is a change in perspective that comes from INSIDE of ME. So it works for me too.

[dbmmama]

Yes, often all I need is a change in perspective that comes from INSIDE of ME. So it works for me too.

<3

[Rubicon]

Yeah ok ladies. (c: I'm glad it works for you. The point I was trying to make though is that 'choosing' is only the tip of the iceberg. A change of mindset may motivate you to want to do something about the state you're in, but it stops right there unless you have the power and knowledge of how to make things happen.

[dbmmama]

Yeah ok ladies. (c: I'm glad it works for you. The point I was trying to make though is that 'choosing' is only the tip of the iceberg. A change of mindset may motivate you to want to do something about the state you're in, but it stops right there unless you have the power and knowledge of how to make things happen.

the choosing and changing of perspective MAKES those things show up. for me, it does. no effort, they come. fucking cool!

[Rubicon]

the choosing and changing of perspective MAKES those things show up. for me, it does. no effort, they come. fucking cool!

your sig suggests otherwise :-P

[dbmmama]

your sig suggests otherwise :-P

i've learned, i've learned............

AND, no effort does not mean you don't have highs, lows, ups, downs, CONTRAST....all of that is what HELPS signal the need for a change of perspective....

[sigma]

i can and have instantly changed my health by changing my perception of health. i can and have instantly changed many things in my life by changing my perception internally. it takes a VERY STRONG WILL to do that, i believe.

I don't believe will will do it!
You can have changes... but is not will that's required... what is required is understanding...

For example, it is well know and well advertised that smoking kills but when someone dear to you dies because of this nasty habit, you understand... or at least you have a better chance of truly understanding... that it could kill you. And when you understand this, you stop. You don't need will, or you need very little will to just stop.

[lastdance]

this forum is dead because it is fucking booring

[dbmmama]

I don't believe will will do it!
You can have changes... but is not will that's required... what is required is understanding...

For example, it is well know and well advertised that smoking kills but when someone dear to you dies because of this nasty habit, you understand... or at least you have a better chance of truly understanding... that it could kill you. And when you understand this, you stop. You don't need will, or you need very little will to just stop.

it depends on what you seek.

[dbmmama]

this forum is dead because it is fucking booring

your avatar is cool.

[sigma]

it depends on what you seek.

How?

[dbmmama]

How?

i seek will, you seek understanding.

[sigma]

i seek will, you seek understanding.

maybe... but I KNOW that will cannot last. I know it can be used only to start things, it cannot be used to fuel things more than a short run...
I also know that will can be subordinated to a meaning... and meaning comes from understanding...

[redbaron]

What I was talking about is only a shift in perspective, not a shift in anything outside of me. What I meant was that circumstances can change and be completely out of your control but through everything, you can still choose to acknowledge the positive force of life, God or whatever that means to you, and hold on to joy even through sorrow that life will inevitably bring. I don't know if I would call that work, it's just an awareness, an acknowledgment, a gratefulness for existing and for all that is good, despite the bad. When joy exists alongside of sorrow, at the exact same instant, that is real happiness. There are things in my life that I CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT. Real life example, my favorite uncle is dying from cancer right now. He has 3-6 months to live. I can do nothing about that and I will always feel sorrow over that, for him, for his family, for my own loss, and yet I can choose to feel joy in the midst of that. I can choose to embrace the life that I have and the beauty all around me while at the same time feeling the undertow of grief about an external situation that I have no control over.

[dbmmama]

What I was talking about is only a shift in perspective, not a shift in anything outside of me. What I meant was that circumstances can change and be completely out of your control but through everything, you can still choose to acknowledge the positive force of life, God or whatever that means to you, and hold on to joy even through sorrow that life will inevitably bring. I don't know if I would call that work, it's just an awareness, an acknowledgment, a gratefulness for existing and for all that is good, despite the bad. When joy exists alongside of sorrow, at the exact same instant, that is real happiness. There are things in my life that I CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT. Real life example, my favorite uncle is dying from cancer right now. He has 3-6 months to live. I can do nothing about that and I will always feel sorrow over that, for him, for his family, for my own loss, and yet I can choose to feel joy in the midst of that. I can choose to embrace the life that I have and the beauty all around me while at the same time feeling the undertow of grief about an external situation that I have no control over.

thank you. i was grasping for the words to explain this better and was getting pissed that i couldn't. yes.

[Rubicon]

What I was talking about is only a shift in perspective, not a shift in anything outside of me. What I meant was that circumstances can change and be completely out of your control but through everything, you can still choose to acknowledge the positive force of life, God or whatever that means to you, and hold on to joy even through sorrow that life will inevitably bring. I don't know if I would call that work, it's just an awareness, an acknowledgment, a gratefulness for existing and for all that is good, despite the bad. When joy exists alongside of sorrow, at the exact same instant, that is real happiness. There are things in my life that I CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT. Real life example, my favorite uncle is dying from cancer right now. He has 3-6 months to live. I can do nothing about that and I will always feel sorrow over that, for him, for his family, for my own loss, and yet I can choose to feel joy in the midst of that. I can choose to embrace the life that I have and the beauty all around me while at the same time feeling the undertow of grief about an external situation that I have no control over.

Sorry about your uncle. <3

I see what you're saying, but I find it hard to relate really ... when you say you choose to feel joy. Unless you mean you choose to focus on things that can cause you to feel joy, but just being able to create feelings out of nowhere - how do you do that? They would be simulated feelings, not real ones. There needs to be a cause for real feelings.

And if you are choosing to focus on the things that make you happy, why is that necessarily a good thing? Maybe it's healthier to feel sad when bad things are happening in your life - to let life decide your emotions rather than trying to artificially zoom in on some things and set the "bad" things on a blur setting. I think that it's better in the long run to actually go about making some tangible changes in your life so that you aren't afraid to let your feelings represent reality rather than having to fool around with your perception before allowing yourself to experience reality. It just kinda takes away from being able to experience things spontaneously I think. Maybe it's just me, but I've tried that sort of thing before, and it's just emotionally exhausting. I'd rather just be sad when events unfold that should make me sad, and happy when something happens to make me happy. A friend of mine lost her dad to cancer a while ago, and she was obviously employing this "focus on the positives" thing - and it was just ridiculous. Trying to be really cheery at the funeral. And so she represses all these emotions that she's going to suffer for later rather than just letting herself feel what she naturally should and getting through it better.

[redbaron]

Sorry about your uncle. <3

I see what you're saying, but I find it hard to relate really ... when you say you choose to feel joy. Unless you mean you choose to focus on things that can cause you to feel joy, but just being able to create feelings out of nowhere - how do you do that? They would be simulated feelings, not real ones. There needs to be a cause for real feelings.

And if you are choosing to focus on the things that make you happy, why is that necessarily a good thing? Maybe it's healthier to feel sad when bad things are happening in your life - to let life decide your emotions rather than trying to artificially zoom in on some things and set the "bad" things on a blur setting. I think that it's better in the long run to actually go about making some tangible changes in your life so that you aren't afraid to let your feelings represent reality rather than having to fool around with your perception before allowing yourself to experience reality. It just kinda takes away from being able to experience things spontaneously I think. Maybe it's just me, but I've tried that sort of thing before, and it's just emotionally exhausting. I'd rather just be sad when events unfold that should make me sad, and happy when something happens to make me happy. A friend of mine lost her dad to cancer a while ago, and she was obviously employing this "focus on the positives" thing - and it was just ridiculous. Trying to be really cheery at the funeral. And so she represses all these emotions that she's going to suffer for later rather than just letting herself feel what she naturally should and getting through it better.

No, it's not about trying to be cheery. Let's see, how do I explain this? It's about feeling a deeper joy, a real happiness in the middle of the grief. NOT THAT you're not feeling the grief! My goodness, do you think I'm not utterly and completely sad about my uncle? Of course I am! And I cry big, real tears over it. BUT at precisely the same time, I see the beauty in life and in the world. This is not simply my imagination, it's reality. It's SEEING the affirming life that's all around me and choosing to acknowledge its existence while in the middle of your grief. This is not something I've always been able to do and maybe it comes with getting older. But I can choose to blind myself to the beauty, to the life, to God and his love for me and for the world, despite the horrible things that happen, OR I can acknowledge their co-existence. Maybe what you're saying (and correct me if I'm wrong) is that you can't feel more than one emotion at a time. Well what I'm saying is that I can feel both sorrow and joy simultaneously. Maybe it's as simple as remembering what you have to be grateful for. It's not about tricking yourself into feeling good all the time. Because believe me, I cry nearly every day. And yet, I'm happy. Very happy. (or perhaps I have a multiple personality disorder. )