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Thread: Conversion between Socionic and MBTI types

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    Default Conversion between Socionic and MBTI types.

    Since this topic continues to pop up, and most people seem tired of trying to describe, I've decided to make a post about it to be able to get my point across in one clear, logical format: stop switching the J and P!

    1. It's a myth that the J and P are supposed to switch.

    Original Socionic types in Russia were labeled with acronyms such as SLI, EIE, etc... not the four letter acronym. The four letter is the MBTI acronym, and the goal of converting the Socionic types into the MBTI acronym was to make them more usable and compatable (for us in the West). They (people like Segei Ganin from socionics.com) labeled the SLI as an ISTp, the EIE as an ENFj, etc... because they were supposed to line up to the MBTI type. They were the most compatible. If the SLI was the same thing as the MBTI ISTJ, then the Socionists would have called the SLI an ISTj, not an ISTp.

    Also, keep in mind that the definitions for the Judging/Perceiving scales are pretty much the same thing.

    So, why are the functions different?


    2. The two systems define the functions differently.

    Duh.

    They both define the functions in ways to fit their systems. If you read through the functional description on different MBTI and Socionic sites, you'll see the differences. In MBTI, your outer world determines your J/P, whereas in Socionics, it’s your dominant function. Socionists claim that if your base function is a perceiving one, then you are a perceiver, and if your base function is a judging one, then you are a judger. In MBTI, if you have Se or Ne then you are a perceiver… always, no matter if it is you base or secondary function.


    3. The differences between the definitions of the functions in the systems.

    One example is the function Ti. Socionics defines Ti as structural, or systematic logic. It’s about those things, logical systems, laws, and rules, and also analytical thought (when it’s the dominant function). Ti closes itself off from the outside world of facts and production to be able to manipulate them into this logical structure that they have in their heads, conscientiously seeing that system; looking through it.

    Te in Socionics is a little bit different. I like to think of it as “logical juxtaposition”, other words thrown around to describe it have been “positivism”, “producing”, “practical”, “concrete logic”, etc… Te takes what happens in the outside, objective world, and reasons things off of observed behavior, how they actually are, as opposed to following their systems. Te types can often collect different types of “facts” or "evidence”, and then they try and weigh those side by side to make a comparison, and eventually a decision (exactly like what I’m doing now, this is Te.)

    Here are both short Socionic and MBTI definitions of Te and Ti. Note that they are somewhat different.

    Jung's function: Introverted Thinking

    Socionics function: white logic - logic - logic of correlation

    objective, outwardly measurable relationships between objects - laws, regulations, rules, categories, quantifiable properties, logic, analysis, belonging, authorship, hierarchy, subordination, objective judgments

    Positive(short range):
    Reality, detail, detailed study, carefulness, severity, place in hierarchies, laws, decisions, instructions, a choice of the best variant, logic of the organization,

    Negative (long range):
    abstraction, generality, universality, system, classification, typology, the general laws, objectivity, true, validity, the analysis, logic of a science, criteria.

    Jung's function: Extraverted Thinking

    Socionics function: black logic - profit - business logic

    external activity of object - actions, events (what, how, where), facts, activity or work, algorithms, procedures, logic of objects’ measurable outward behavior

    Positive(short range):
    Advantage, benefit, profitability, technology, the facts, purchases, accumulation, the purchase, savings, putting in order, a practicality;

    Negative (long range):
    Uselessness, unprofitableness, use, application, deterioration, charges, expenditure, risk, experiment, sale, trade, actions in conditions of chaos, an ingenuity.

    MBTI Definition.

    Introverted Thinking - Analyzing, categorizing, and figuring out how something works. Introverted Thinking often involves finding just the right word to clearly express an idea concisely, crisply, and to the point. Using introverted Thinking is like having an internal sense of the essential qualities of something, noticing the fine distinctions that make it what it is and then naming it. It also involves an internal reasoning process of deriving subcategories of classes and sub-principles of general principles. These can then be used in problem solving, analysis, and refining of a product or an idea. This process is evidenced in behaviors like taking things or ideas apart to figure out how they work. The analysis involves looking at different sides of an issue and seeing where there is inconsistency. In so doing, there is a search for a "leverage point" that will fix problems with the least amount of effort or damage to the system.

    Extraverted Thinking - Organizing, segmenting, sorting, and applying logic and criteria. Contingency plaiming, scheduling, and quantifying utilize the process of extraverted Thinking. Extraverted Thinking helps us organize our environment and ideas through charts, tables, graphs, flow charts, outlines, and so on. One woman labeled the shoeboxes for her 100 pairs of shoes for color, height, style, and comfort. Sometimes the organizing of extraverted Thinking is more abstract, like a logical argument that is made to "rearrange" someone else's thinking process! An example is when we point out logical consequences and say, "If your do this, then that will happen." In written or verbal communication, extraverted Thinking helps us easily follow someone else's logic, sequence, or organization. It also helps us notice when something is missing, like when someone says he or she is going to talk about four topics and talks about only three. In general, it allows us to compartmentalize many aspects of our lives so we can do what is necessary to accomplish our objectives.

    4. MBTI people don’t admit that their functional ordering is wrong.

    People have been using Meyes’ functional model for so long that they don’t even see where they contradict themselves anymore, yet it’s there in plain sight. This is one example of Introverted Sensing (in MBTI terms), written by Lenore Thompsen (I’ll just post a segment here.)

    EDIT/// I had to remove the segment here upon request... if anyone wants the link, I could still pm it to you. I'll still leave my interpretation of it here, though:

    She is contrasting the ESxJs and the ISxJs. You can go through and look at how she compares them, and notice there is actually differences between Si and Se in these descriptions (at least in the way that Socionics defines it). One example she gives is how the two types are different in maintaining the “status quo”. She claims that the ISxJs are more stable with it, while the ESxJs actually change as it fits. This can easily be explained by the differences between Se and Si. We know that the Se function respects the status quo, because you can see it as it compares in the ESxP types and the ISxP types. It’s not uncommon to see ESxPs appeal to authority, or suck up to their superiors, and at least play the role of the good guy to keep things in order. ISxPs are the opposite (even MBTI descriptions will tell you that!). In a weird way, the ISxPs are actually more similar in regard to their sensing function with the ESxJs then the are with the ESxPs, although MBTI typology models ignore this. What was described here is the difference between the Si-Ne and the Se-Ni axis. They also mentioned how ISxJs often feel like they weren’t “different” in anyway, whereas the ESxJs felt more “odd” in the way that they do things. Again, Ne-Si axis as compared to the Se-Ni axis. You can check this one, too, by comparing them to their perceptive cousins.

    5. No matter how you try, the models never equate, ever.

    People talk about the dominant functions all the time, but they often forget about the third and fourth functions in the models. For example, an ENTP in MBTI has the order of Ne-Ti-Fe-Si. In Socionics, it is, Ne-Ti-Se-Fi. The ENTJ in MBTI is Te-Ni-Se-Fi. In Socionics, it is, Te-Ni-Fe-Si. You can see, there is somewhat of a split between the models. An example of an Introvert would be ISFP (MBTI), Fi-Se-Ni-Te, whereas in Socionics it is, Si-Fe-Ni-Te. The ISFJ (MBTI) is, Si-Fe-Ti-Ne, and in Socionics, it is Fi-Se-Ti-Ne. Again, you can see that none of the functional model translate 100%. There are a ton of little nuisances to consider, as it is not black and white.

    6. Models can’t explain everything!

    Most people have a hard time determining their type in the first place, let alone try and pinpoint every function they are conscious of using. Remember, models themselves are limited. They are an attempt to describe the microscopic world, on the macroscopic level. They are generalizations, simplifications, and often times wrong. It’s a fact of life, so we can't sit back and let the models describe everything, as they are merely a guide.




    Thanks.
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    Hmmm, I will have to read through this and comment sometime today ..

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    Well done, "Master" . Hope this article helps others clear out the confusion, or at least get a better understanding...

    Ah, it would have been great if I didn't notice the spelling mistakes. Besides that, great job.
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    Default Re: Conversion between Socionic and MBTI types.

    [quote]
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Since this topic continues to pop up, and most people seem tired of trying to describe, I've decided to make a post about it to be able to get my point across in one clear, logical format: stop switching the J and P!

    1. It's a myth that the J and P are supposed to switch.

    Original Socionic types in Russia were labeled with acronyms such as SLI, EIE, etc... not the four letter acronym. The four letter is the MBTI acronym, and the goal of converting the Socionic types into the MBTI acronym was to make them more usable and compatable (for us in the West). They (people like Segei Ganin from socionics.com) labeled the SLI as an ISTp, the EIE as an ENFj, etc... because they were supposed to line up to the MBTI type. They were the most compatible. If the SLI was the same thing as the MBTI ISTJ, then the Socionists would have called the SLI an ISTj, not an ISTp.

    Also, keep in mind that the definitions for the Judging/Perceiving scales are pretty much the same thing.
    I disagree that solid definitions for J and P are even needed for socionics (even though socionics.com did list some), and I think it is contradictory and confusing to even attempt to make them since a determinination of a first function in itself is good enough to determine that. Unless of course people wanted to waste their time digging through unnecessary stereotyping that might just confuse them in the end. Also, I think the definitions should just be thrown out if people are going to continue using MBTI type accronyms, that might make it less confusing.

    But then again, some may just assume that socionics is like MBTI and do it anyways ... Hmmmm ...

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    As always, I agree with like everything Rocky said here. Bravo!
    , Se-sub
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    I think there are two easy steps to solve confusion in the matter.

    1.) Stop stereotyping and giving definitions to Judgement and Perception
    2.) Abandon MBTI type typing styles ...

    If atleast one or both of these happened, it would be an improvement ...

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    Actually, I've tried that before, remember? It didn't work out, because, no matter how hard we try, people are so influenced by the MBTI typing system, they're familar with it, and the don't have the patience to understand the Russian acronyms. I know that doesn't sound so great, but it's what's happend. We tried using the three letter acronyms, but it never caught on past the semi-regular users on this forum. The new people were like, "WTF's an EII?".
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    There's no need for acronyms

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo
    There's no need for acronyms
    Shit, your avatar made me look twice.
    , Se-sub
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    We've been through this before...

    oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=988

    ISTp?

    or SLI?

    or SiTe?

    or Sensory-logical Introvert?

    or "Master"

    or Introverted Sensing with Thinking?

    etc...


    I personally like the full names, but it would be too long to type those out every time, so using one of the acronyms is useful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Then the only other way is to try to convince people that there are no solid definitions for J and P other than what could be assumed to be a determination of their first functions, which is essentially for the most part an agreement on the manifestations of behaviours caused by the 1st and 7th functions in a type together.

    Sadly, I am speculating that probably is not going to be any more successful than getting people to revert back to the russian acronyms.

    Maybe a better idea is to make a compromise, I suppose someone could try to write socionic J and P definitions based entirely on the 1st and 7th functions of each type. The only problem is that most people might have a hard time recognize that those defintions are diffrent than MBTI defintions for J and P. I think it is worth considering compared to our other options, though.

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    http://www.socionics.us/theory/rat_irr.shtml

    That's a start, although I don't agree 100%, it's still pretty good.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by rmcnew
    I think there are two easy steps to solve confusion in the matter.

    1.) Stop stereotyping and giving definitions to Judgement and Perception
    2.) Abandon MBTI type typing styles ...

    If atleast one or both of these happened, it would be an improvement ...
    Since the acronyms and Functions are meant to describe processes, how about simply defining/describing our Information Processing Styles with verbs instead of with nouns/adj.?
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Fine, from now on, let's just call Ti "Systemizing", and Te "Juxtaposing".
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Fine, from now on, let's just call Ti "Systemizing", and Te "Juxtaposing".
    I'm sure some people will debate the semantics of it, but for now, I am using "Analysing" for Ti and "Systemizing" for Te. One has suggested "Extrapolating" for Ti (which actually seems to fit better, so I'll most likely change to it).

    I also now use "Evaluating" for Fi and "Envisioning" for Fe.
    Etc.

    The more I use verbs to describe my Functioning and observations, the closer I come to understanding Socionics.
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    Good job, Rocky.
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    Actually, I do like the verb idea. We can always try and brain storm somethings. How's this?

    Te- formulizing (Jung attributed much of Te to "Intellectual formula").
    Ti- analyzing.
    Fi- evaluating.
    Fe- expressing.
    Se- expending.
    Si- extracting.
    Ne- chasing.
    Ni- predicting?
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Actually, I do like the verb idea. We can always try and brain storm somethings. How's this?

    Te- formulizing (Jung attributed much of Te to "Intellectual formula").
    Ti- analyzing.
    Fi- evaluating.
    Fe- expressing.
    Se- expending.
    Si- extracting.
    Ne- chasing.
    Ni- predicting?

    Te - defining? outlining?
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    Rocky, do/did you horizontally flip your avatar?


    maybe I'm thinking of something else.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    Actually, I do like the verb idea. We can always try and brain storm somethings. How's this?

    Te- formulizing (Jung attributed much of Te to "Intellectual formula").
    Ti- analyzing.
    Fi- evaluating.
    Fe- expressing.
    Se- expending.
    Si- extracting.
    Ne- chasing.
    Ni- predicting?
    Te - Formulizing
    (I like Formulizing much better than Systemizing. Thank You.)
    Ti - Analyzing

    Fe - Expressing
    (At first glance it didn't seem right, but upon a little reflection, it seems to fit quite well.)
    Fi - Evaluating.

    Se - Expending, Experiencing, or ???
    (I have used "Experiencing", it may need to be changed, but i don't think "Expending" would be the best term.)
    Si - Extracting
    (I had used "Recall" before, but i think Extracting works better)

    Ne - Generating?
    (...I love the chasing image but it's not quite right.)
    Ni - predicting
    (seems to fit)

    (edited a couple of times, sorry)
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    Ne - Connecting?
    Ni - Not predicting...perhaps...conceptualizing? Formulating? Yes, I like that: Formulating
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gilligan87
    Ne - Connecting?
    Ni - Not predicting...perhaps...conceptualizing? Formulating? Yes, I like that: Formulating
    No to the Ne - Connecting.
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    Ne-exploring?




    RE: Si- Recalling and Se-experiencing.

    yeah, that works.

    (oh, and Ne is the antithesis of "connecting")
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    Actually, I think juxtaposing works pretty well for Ne: objectively seeing two or more opinions/points of view, and balancing the + and - of both to see which one is "better" (which is defined by either or )
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    As far as acronymns go, I am trying to use the IEI, SLI etc. but it is difficult to fully convert when other people keep using them! I keep slipping back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    Quote Originally Posted by UDP
    Rocky, do/did you horizontally flip your avatar?


    maybe I'm thinking of something else.
    Hugo mirrored it (flipped on vertical axis) and used it as his -- he hasn't answered my question of why yet.

    Ahh, I thought something was going on
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I used to use them, but no one understood what I was talking about. Some people kept on complaining about it, so I switched back. I think the problem is that we would understand them, but newbies wouldn't.

    Unless of course we could start interest going again for the Russian acronyms.


    Actually, I noticed that Rick uses the Russian ones on his site. Maybe they will become more common/accepted in the future.

    http://www.socionics.us/index.shtml
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    Quote Originally Posted by vague
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    Maybe we could get into the habit by typing IEI/INFp, SLI/ISTp etc. instead of only using one. And that way if we ever slip-up and use the 3-letter scronymn by itself people should have some idea of what we're talking about.

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    Rocky,

    I discovered that I have a big problem with Fe as "Expressing". I fought for it, cuz in a way it made sense, but as I applied it to my observations, my entire system began breaking down...but not in that "Ah-ha" kind of way. When I switched back to "Harmonizing", clarity began coming back. I think the reason why is because Ti and Fe..."go together"... if you are breaking information down into categories there must be some kind of crosschecking system to determine which categories a piece of information goes into. Basically, checking for matching and mismatching information is Fe-ing. And yet, I think that it is also a (or the)contributor to what we sometimes call the "gut reaction", that feeling of...get this...something isn't quite right. Perhaps this is what you meant by "expressing"?

    In a similar sense, Te and Fi go together. In attempting to formulize, we have to somehow evaluate that information to determine priority and location within the formula.

    Ni and Se go together...one perceiving the concrete stimulus from the outside world, the other the inner abstract.
    Ne and Si go together...one perceiving the abstract stimulus from the outside world, the other the inner concrete.

    We have Se as Experiencing, and Si as Recalling, in order to figure out Ni and Ne, we need to consider how each works with its partner.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    Creepy-Paul

    Default Re: Conversion between Socionic and MBTI types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    1. It's a myth that the J and P are supposed to switch.

    Original Socionic types in Russia were labeled with acronyms such as SLI, EIE, etc... not the four letter acronym. The four letter is the MBTI acronym, and the goal of converting the Socionic types into the MBTI acronym was to make them more usable and compatable (for us in the West). They (people like Segei Ganin from socionics.com) labeled the SLI as an ISTp, the EIE as an ENFj, etc... because they were supposed to line up to the MBTI type. They were the most compatible. If the SLI was the same thing as the MBTI ISTJ, then the Socionists would have called the SLI an ISTj, not an ISTp.

    Also, keep in mind that the definitions for the Judging/Perceiving scales are pretty much the same thing.

    So, why are the functions different?
    In Socionics, NiTe is INTp. In MBTI, it is INTJ. At least in that case, if you keep the major and minor functions constant, J and P flip.

    Paul

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    I think it's the fact that the functional ordering in MBTI produces a hybrid of a certain type and its quasi-identity that allows for the j/p dichotomy to either change or remain the same.
    Lyricist

    "Supposing the entity of the poet to be represented by the number 10, it is certain that a chemist, on analyzing it, would find it to be composed of one part interest and nine parts vanity." (Victor Hugo)

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    escaping anndelise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise
    Rocky,

    Ni and Se go together...one perceiving the concrete stimulus from the outside world, the other the inner abstract.
    Ne and Si go together...one perceiving the abstract stimulus from the outside world, the other the inner concrete.

    We have Se as Experiencing, and Si as Recalling, in order to figure out Ni and Ne, we need to consider how each works with its partner.
    I noticed that I had made a mistake in an earlier post. I am currently using "Envisioning" for Ni. I have used "Brainstorming" for Ne, but "Generating" feels better (for now), however, it's more important to me to consider how the Se/Ni and Ne/Si work together.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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    I like this topic. I haven't myself studied the MBTI system in great depth -- just enough to realize that it's a different system based on different assumptions.

    On my site I do use only the socionics names (IEI, LSE, etc.) and do not intend to add the MBTI ones. I am very stubborn and will not write anything that I believe is incorrect. In fact, as I was developing my site concept, I wrote to Sergei Ganin and warned him I would be using the "more correct" original terms, but did not receive a reply.

    I believe the socionics terms will eventually win out. Here's why. Whenever things are translated from Russian, they will tend to use the socionics terms. Translating between languages tends to keep the terminology close. These terms will tend to be the same or nearly the same in Spanish, Chinese, German, etc. -- not only English. Second, eventually there will be more and more people interested in socionics who do not know about the MBTI system, and they will not care whether SLE or ESTP is used. Actually, they will prefer SLE because it better fits together with other socionics concepts.

    Patience, my friends. It's all a matter of time.

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    Regarding alternate names for the information elements...

    I wrote a little article in Russian about the "innate spirituality of the types" where I tried to formulate the natural spiritual inclinations of the types by their leading function. These are not definitions of functions, but describe how the types tend to understand spirituality and what they strive for in a "spiritual" sense, based on my personal experience. At the same time, these descriptions correlate well with the actual function descriptions themselves.

    - learning without bounds
    - developing personal power
    - worthy service (i.e. of God and society)
    - emotional coalescence (i.e. with God and with one another)
    - contact with Higher Forces
    - health of body and soul
    - allegiance to truth
    - moral perfection

    Hope this doesn't complicate things more I just thought it'd be interesting in the context of this discussion.

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    Default Re: Conversion between Socionic and MBTI types.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Rocky
    1. It's a myth that the J and P are supposed to switch.

    Original Socionic types in Russia were labeled with acronyms such as SLI, EIE, etc... not the four letter acronym. The four letter is the MBTI acronym, and the goal of converting the Socionic types into the MBTI acronym was to make them more usable and compatable (for us in the West). They (people like Segei Ganin from socionics.com) labeled the SLI as an ISTp, the EIE as an ENFj, etc... because they were supposed to line up to the MBTI type. They were the most compatible. If the SLI was the same thing as the MBTI ISTJ, then the Socionists would have called the SLI an ISTj, not an ISTp.

    Also, keep in mind that the definitions for the Judging/Perceiving scales are pretty much the same thing.

    So, why are the functions different?
    In Socionics, NiTe is INTp. In MBTI, it is INTJ. At least in that case, if you keep the major and minor functions constant, J and P flip.

    Paul
    Oh dear, then you missed my point...

    ...and if you start claiming that you are an INTp in socionics, then I'd have to disagree. You sound very Ti right now, not Te at all. If you are saying that you are an INTj in socionics, but were an INTP in MBTI, then it's possible you switched, but that's not common. Actually, going from MBTI to socionics, some people change their types completely... but I think that has to do with how subjective MBTI is, and not having to do with J/P.

    Here, take a look at this thread:

    oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=2416
    MAYBE I'LL BREAK DOWN!!!


    Quote Originally Posted by vague
    Rocky's posts are as enjoyable as having wisdom teeth removed.

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    Creepy-

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    @Rocky: I'm glad you like that thread

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    The simplest means to stop the confusion is, as with Keirsey's temperament, stop utilizing Myers-Briggs' codes. However, that would be too easy. What most fail to understand is, socionics and temperament will always be viewed as step children as long as the systems continue to dangle to MBTI coat tails.

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    WOW what can I say, I'm lucky. I only know socionics. Didn't know it was such a mess Socionics and MBTI


    Quote Originally Posted by Rick
    Regarding alternate names for the information elements...

    I wrote a little article in Russian about the "innate spirituality of the types" where I tried to formulate the natural spiritual inclinations of the types by their leading function. These are not definitions of functions, but describe how the types tend to understand spirituality and what they strive for in a "spiritual" sense, based on my personal experience. At the same time, these descriptions correlate well with the actual function descriptions themselves.

    - learning without bounds
    - developing personal power
    - worthy service (i.e. of God and society)
    - emotional coalescence (i.e. with God and with one another)
    - contact with Higher Forces
    - health of body and soul
    - allegiance to truth
    - moral perfection

    Hope this doesn't complicate things more I just thought it'd be interesting in the context of this discussion.
    Rick your descriptions are COOL very meaningful.

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