Annoyance at INFj-EII stereotypes (rant)

[Lobo]

I'm writing this because I'm finding it incredibly annoying at such EII stereotypes such as (not limited to):

- EII are push overs.
- EII have to be forced to do things otherwise they wouldn't do anything.
- EII are hypocritical.

When I read stuff like this it bothers me at how much bullshit it is to me... I can see how this applies to earlier stages of life but all EIIs being like this? give me a fucking break... (Yes, I used the word "fuck," but I'm not supposed to right? Se!! ) I don't feel like writing much more in terms of how these stereotypes piss me off because to me it is not a good discussion in terms of actual socionics, not to mention EIIs might read these stereotypes and then think to themselves "OH SHIT, this is me!!! now I have to comform to this!!" Say "NO" to ignorance, people... And also, I find the whole "stereotypes have an element of truth though" as the lamest excuse for not finding the whole truth about something.

[unefille]

I agree with you that stereotypes are a very unproductive side effect of socionics. Your post was probably a rant, so I have no intention to correcting you in anyway. Everyone needs space to vent. However, all types are faced with ridiculous and often hurtful stereotypes, none the least being that all EIEs are tarred with the brush of being ******s-in-the-making; that we're ingenuine, fake and manipulative drama queens (worse yet for male EIEs I suppose).

Stereotypes serve a practical purpose in distilling complicated information into very roughly-hewn outlines. As an Asian immigrant in a predominantly Anglo-Celtic society, I can't even pretend that socionics stereotypes bother me that much. Nevetheless, there is no better way of dispelling stereotypes than to be yourself, unapologetically.

[UDP]

Thanks for your comments

[Lobo]

I agree with you that stereotypes are a very unproductive side effect of socionics. Your post was probably a rant, so I have no intention to correcting you in anyway. Everyone needs space to vent. However, all types are faced with ridiculous and often hurtful stereotypes, none the least being that all EIEs are tarred with the brush of being ******s-in-the-making; that we're ingenuine, fake and manipulative drama queens (worse yet for male EIEs I suppose).

Stereotypes serve a practical purpose in distilling complicated information into very roughly-hewn outlines. As an Asian immigrant in a predominantly Anglo-Celtic society, I can't even pretend that socionics stereotypes bother me that much. Nevetheless, there is no better way of dispelling stereotypes than to be yourself, unapologetically.

Yes, my post is 100% rant in disapproval. I don't usually rant, but I find this whole stereotyping thing completely ridiculous.

[UDP]

You know what, I'm tired of how LSE's are basically supposed to be ESEs, who "think more".

You can say whatever you want.

[unefille]

You know what, I'm tired of how LSE's are basically supposed to be ESEs, who "think more".

You can say whatever you want.

Doncha mean 'ESEs who are meaner and bake less yummy food?'

lol, I'm sure ESEs are sick of being LSEs who 'think less' aka lobotomised.

[cracka]

You know what, I'm tired of how LSE's are basically supposed to be ESEs, who "think more".

You can say whatever you want.

You know what, I'm tired of how ESE's are basically supposed to be LSEs, who "don't think".

You can say whatever you want.



Edit: Shit... you beat me to it.

[UDP]

*clap clap clap*

[unefille]

Edit: Shit... you beat me to it.

[Lobo]

Remember, LSE = wife-beaters as well from what I've heard.

[ann2430]

- EII are push overs.
- EII have to be forced to do things otherwise they wouldn't do anything.
- EII are hypocritical.

I understand your frustration because those stereotypes would bother me too. The second one is not true of me at all. I mean, i suppose I have my lazy days like anyone else, but i don't like to sit around and do nothing all the time. The other two might have some element of truth, but in general they don't really apply to me. I suppose there are stereotypes about every type though. This is a good example of why we have to try and avoid making general statements about the socionic types. Not every person of the same type is the same or even very similar. I suppose those stereotypes might apply to some EII's, but certainly not all.

[ann2430]

Remember, LSE = wife-beaters as well from what I've heard.

That's a really bad stereotype, and doesn't seem true of LSE's at all. I'm sure there are some who are, but there are probably people of every type who abuse their wives. That has more to do with emotional/interpersonal health than anything else.

[ann2430]

[quote]

Doncha mean 'ESEs who are meaner and bake less yummy food?'

I think LSE's are usually pretty good cooks, actually :-)

[unefille]

I think LSE's are usually pretty good cooks, actually :-)

Ya, but they make less of it, because Fi doesn't want to feed everyone the way Fe does. ESEs want to feed you till you all have to roll down the hill to get away, ya know. They like, cause obesity.

[The Greeter]

This has been on my mind for a very long time and I was thinking of making a topic about it but I never bothered. Some people do perceive me as a pushover but some people also see me as being pushy and even stubborn.

Also, I rarely ever do anything because I was forced. The saying that "EII can never say no" does not tell the whole story. If I know I cannot do something, I will not. But the reason I have a hard time saying no is because in my mind, I always think that I can without putting unreasonable strain on myself. So basically, if somebody asked me if I can help them and I think I can: I either say yes and tell the truth, or say no and end up lying.
Of course, there are times I overestimate my abilities and that is usually when somebody might see me stressed (I usually do not complain if I am in such a situation) and people just love to point out my "lack" of a backbone during those moments.

I think the "EII are hypocritical" claim stems from the fact that INFjs are perceived as judgemental. Well, I will admit that I am. But the things is, nobody is exempt from my judgement, not even myself. In fact, most of the time I am much more harsh with myself than I am with other people. People can easily shrug off my judgement of them, but I cannot ever escape from it. I also think that this is one of the reasons why INFjs are seen as "goodie two-shoes."

In all honesty, if you have something against an INFj, talk to them personally and let them explain themselves as they will usually have a complex explanation for almost all their behaviour. Of course, you have to be patient as it takes us time and trust to welcome you into our mind.

[The Greeter]

Ya, but they make less of it, because Fi doesn't want to feed everyone the way Fe does. ESEs want to feed you till you all have to roll down the hill to get away, ya know. They like, cause obesity.

That is actually one of the things that frustrates me about food and Fe.
I will eat until I am full and when I am, I will stop. Yes, I may be lean but I am healthy. Delta STs seem to understand this concept.

[ann2430]

[quote]

Ya, but they make less of it, because Fi doesn't want to feed everyone the way Fe does. ESEs want to feed you till you all have to roll down the hill to get away, ya know. They like, cause obesity.

LOL, talk about stereotypes. I guess we can blame ESE's for the obesity epidemic!

(I'm totally kidding)

[unefille]

Stereotypes are totally fun. I'm going to buy a t-shirt that says: Hi, I'm a victim. Please dominate me now.

[ann2430]

[quote]

This has been on my mind for a very long time and I was thinking of making a topic about it but I never bothered. Some people do perceive me as a pushover but some people also see me as being pushy and even stubborn.

I'm not sure that anyone really sees me as pushy, but I can definitely be stubborn at times. I don't really push anyone else into doing things though.

Also, I rarely ever do anything because I was forced. The saying that "EII can never say no" does not tell the whole story. If I know I cannot do something, I will not. But the reason I have a hard time saying no is because in my mind, I always think that I can without putting unreasonable strain on myself. So basically, if somebody asked me if I can help them and I think I can: I either say yes and tell the truth, or say no and end up lying.
Of course, there are times I overestimate my abilities and that is usually when somebody might see me stressed (I usually do not complain if I am in such a situation) and people just love to point out my "lack" of a backbone during those moments.

Overall, this is an excellent post. I can totally relate to everything you said here. I generally have a very hard time saying no, but i will if i really know i cannot do something. But i feel bad saying no if it's just an inconvenience for me, so I usually end up doing it.

I think the "EII are hypocritical" claim stems from the fact that INFjs are perceived as judgemental. Well, I will admit that I am. But the things is, nobody is exempt from my judgement, not even myself. In fact, most of the time I am much more harsh with myself than I am with other people. People can easily shrug off my judgement of them, but I cannot ever escape from it. I also think that this is one of the reasons why INFjs are seen as "goodie two-shoes."

Wow, this describes me so well. I know I can come across as judgmental, but the truth is that i am definitely hardest on myself. I am really pretty accepting of others once i truly get to know them, but I have a hard time being accepting of myself. There is always some aspect of my life i could be improving or some moral impurity. Not that I consider myself to be a saint or anything, but I do think God has standards and I am expected to live up to them. When I fail, i can be extremely hard on myself and it probably makes me seem like a goodie-two shoes or something, but I suppose other people can think what they want to about me.

In all honesty, if you have something against an INFj, talk to them personally and let them explain themselves as they will usually have a complex explanation for almost all their behaviour. Of course, you have to be patient as it takes us time and trust to welcome you into our mind.

Very good point. INFj's are complex people and there is usually more than meets the eye. I think this quality can make it easy for others to misunderstand us. It definitely takes me awhile to really open up to people and share my true thoughts and feelings.

[ann2430]

Stereotypes are totally fun. I'm going to buy a t-shirt that says: Hi, I'm a victim. Please dominate me now.

Haha, i would be really scared to wear that out in public. You never know what type of guys you would attract wearing something like that.

[The Greeter]

Glad we agree.

I'm not sure that anyone really sees me as pushy, but I can definitely be stubborn at times. I don't really push anyone else into doing things though.

I am not pushy in a physical sense or anything, it is a little more abstract. I guess the best way to describe it, as a friend of mine puts it, is that I am a sort of guide to people who may feel a little lost in their life.

The times I am pushy in the "getting people to do things" sense is with an ENTj I have known for almost 7 years. I personally think it is a victim thing where he likes feeling wanted. So when I am adament about wanting him to join me in some outting, he himself told me he finds it very flattering and appreciates it. It took awhile for me to get this, as in the early stages of our friendship when he refused, I usually stopped asking, but I have known him for a long time and have learnt the ways (hehe). This, of course, happens only on the rare occasion because I get exhausted.

[machintruc]

- EII have to be forced to do things otherwise they wouldn't do anything.

I thought EII's were lazy

[Jarno]

I'm writing this because I'm finding it incredibly annoying at such EII stereotypes such as (not limited to):

- EII are push overs.
- EII have to be forced to do things otherwise they wouldn't do anything.
- EII are hypocritical.

I hadn't heard about these, but they are indeed strange stereotypes because:

EII are rather (silent) controllers themselves.
They usually work hard and see it as their duty. (that's how I perceive it)
They are not hypocritical, on contrary.

[redbaron]

Ya, but they make less of it, because Fi doesn't want to feed everyone the way Fe does. ESEs want to feed you till you all have to roll down the hill to get away, ya know. They like, cause obesity.

I thought SEIs caused obesity.

[redbaron]

Stereotypes are totally fun. I'm going to buy a t-shirt that says: Hi, I'm a victim. Please dominate me now.

Fun! I'll buy one too

[redbaron]

I thought EII's were lazy

My EII mother is both lazy (I say it in a very affectionate way, as I am at least as lazy as her, if not more so) and judgmental. Judgmental I am not.

[redbaron]

Haha, i would be really scared to wear that out in public. You never know what type of guys you would attract wearing something like that.

hahaha see, that's something my EII mother would say. My mom is always worried about what people think, what sorts of "wrong types" you might run into and what kind of trouble might be just around the corner. that just doesn't cross my mind. (perhaps it should!)

and btw, I'll bet unhealthy SLEs could be wife-beaters too. So the LSEs shouldn't feel badly.

[Lobo]

I understand your frustration because those stereotypes would bother me too. The second one is not true of me at all. I mean, i suppose I have my lazy days like anyone else, but i don't like to sit around and do nothing all the time. The other two might have some element of truth, but in general they don't really apply to me. I suppose there are stereotypes about every type though. This is a good example of why we have to try and avoid making general statements about the socionic types. Not every person of the same type is the same or even very similar. I suppose those stereotypes might apply to some EII's, but certainly not all.

Yeah, for example the lazy one does not fit me, I'm a hard worker and don't like being idle for extended periods. If I'm not doing something physically, I'm working the brain in some way, but I'm never in a state of complete inactivity for long. Also, how can Te dual seeking even be related to laziness? Maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but to me, it doesn't make socionical sense for someone to be lazy and have Te as either 1st or dual seeking function...

Also, I rarely ever do anything because I was forced. The saying that "EII can never say no" does not tell the whole story. If I know I cannot do something, I will not. But the reason I have a hard time saying no is because in my mind, I always think that I can without putting unreasonable strain on myself. So basically, if somebody asked me if I can help them and I think I can: I either say yes and tell the truth, or say no and end up lying.
Of course, there are times I overestimate my abilities and that is usually when somebody might see me stressed (I usually do not complain if I am in such a situation) and people just love to point out my "lack" of a backbone during those moments.

I think the "EII are hypocritical" claim stems from the fact that INFjs are perceived as judgemental. Well, I will admit that I am. But the things is, nobody is exempt from my judgement, not even myself. In fact, most of the time I am much more harsh with myself than I am with other people. People can easily shrug off my judgement of them, but I cannot ever escape from it. I also think that this is one of the reasons why INFjs are seen as "goodie two-shoes."

I certainly was judgmental to a considerable degree when I was younger, as well as being stubborn as a mule on some things. But, I grew out of it... My point, though I didn't even mention that I had a point to begin with, is that such things that can be "fixed," or improved to a point where it's almost nonexistent, are unrelated to socionics. At least, that's what I believe.

[munenori2]

When I work I'm 110% there. When I'm not I'm the laziest dude ever (unless people are doing stuff and want me to join in). As strong as my work ethic is, so goes my play ethic.

I'd also say I'm not that hypocritical (I am to the extent that everyone ultimately winds up being). I try to minimize it, especially when people point out to me how I might be. I put a lot of weight into looking at that. Maybe I could see pushover because I gravitate so much to what people are expecting of me generally, but if I don't like someone I usually don't budge much.

[Park]

When I work I'm 110% there. When I'm not I'm the laziest dude ever (unless people are doing stuff and want me to join in). As strong as my work ethic is, so goes my play ethic.

I am basically the same way.

[ann2430]

My EII mother is both lazy (I say it in a very affectionate way, as I am at least as lazy as her, if not more so) and judgmental. Judgmental I am not.

Haha, that's funny because my mom is IEI and I am EII. I actually think she is more judgmental than I am, but we have different ways of being judgmental. She can be more stereotypical and can often judge people or things based off stereotypes. I may seem judgmental at first but once i understand why people act the way they do, i rarely pass judgments. My mom doesn't openly share her judgments the way i do sometimes, so i guess that probably makes me seem more judgmental, but in reality i think the opposite is true.

[ann2430]

Yeah, for example the lazy one does not fit me, I'm a hard worker and don't like being idle for extended periods. If I'm not doing something physically, I'm working the brain in some way, but I'm never in a state of complete inactivity for long. Also, how can Te dual seeking even be related to laziness? Maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but to me, it doesn't make socionical sense for someone to be lazy and have Te as either 1st or dual seeking function...

Yeah, i am the same way. I definitely prefer working my brain rather than doing physical labor, however. I also agree that an ESTj would not be attracted to laziness at all.

I certainly was judgmental to a considerable degree when I was younger, as well as being stubborn as a mule on some things. But, I grew out of it... My point, though I didn't even mention that I had a point to begin with, is that such things that can be "fixed," or improved to a point where it's almost nonexistent, are unrelated to socionics. At least, that's what I believe.

I think that being judgmental/stubborn probably has something to do with being INFj, especially since several of us on this board share the same qualities. However, i think that all of us can improve our weaknesses, even if they are related to socionics. According to MBTI, we develop our weak functions as we get older (and yes, i know MBTI is different than socionics, but i still think it's true).

[ann2430]

I am not pushy in a physical sense or anything, it is a little more abstract. I guess the best way to describe it, as a friend of mine puts it, is that I am a sort of guide to people who may feel a little lost in their life.

The times I am pushy in the "getting people to do things" sense is with an ENTj I have known for almost 7 years. I personally think it is a victim thing where he likes feeling wanted. So when I am adament about wanting him to join me in some outting, he himself told me he finds it very flattering and appreciates it. It took awhile for me to get this, as in the early stages of our friendship when he refused, I usually stopped asking, but I have known him for a long time and have learnt the ways (hehe). This, of course, happens only on the rare occasion because I get exhausted.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, i think i understand what you mean about being pushy. I guess I can be that way sometimes too, especially if i think someone really needs to do something to improve their life. Although I definitely never push people to do things with me. I hate rejection so if someone rejects me once, i usually won't try again. But it's interesting and somewhat strange that your ENTj friend likes you to be adament about doing things together.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Do people ever complain when their types (or themselves for that matter) are given positive stereotypes?

[Mariano Rajoy]

I'm writing this because I'm finding it incredibly annoying at such EII stereotypes such as (not limited to):

- EII are push overs.
- EII have to be forced to do things otherwise they wouldn't do anything.
- EII are hypocritical.

When I read stuff like this it bothers me at how much bullshit it is to me... I can see how this applies to earlier stages of life but all EIIs being like this? give me a fucking break... (Yes, I used the word "fuck," but I'm not supposed to right? Se!! ) I don't feel like writing much more in terms of how these stereotypes piss me off because to me it is not a good discussion in terms of actual socionics, not to mention EIIs might read these stereotypes and then think to themselves "OH SHIT, this is me!!! now I have to comform to this!!" Say "NO" to ignorance, people... And also, I find the whole "stereotypes have an element of truth though" as the lamest excuse for not finding the whole truth about something.

Despite these stereotypes, I can't think of anyone that does not like EIIs. Does anyone dislike them?

[Christy B]

Despite these stereotypes, I can't think of anyone that does not like EIIs. Does anyone dislike them?

We are hard enough on ourselves to make up for it ...

[ann2430]

Despite these stereotypes, I can't think of anyone that does not like EIIs. Does anyone dislike them?

I've had people dislike me in the past. Although they usually disliked me because of my personal views and beliefs, so i'm not sure it's really related to me being EII.

[redbaron]

I don't dislike them, but there is a disconnect between us that makes it difficult, no matter how hard we try, to be close. My mom and I have a good relationship but we're far from being "best friends" or anything like that. I don't turn to her for any sort of help when I'm down. And I know some other EIIs that I like but that I wouldn't confide in too much. They're extremely likable, it's just that the relationship *I* have with them, isn't ideal.

[munenori2]

I am basically the same way.

Brothers from different mothers, we are.

[The Greeter]

Haha, that's funny because my mom is IEI and I am EII. I actually think she is more judgmental than I am, but we have different ways of being judgmental. She can be more stereotypical and can often judge people or things based off stereotypes. I may seem judgmental at first but once i understand why people act the way they do, i rarely pass judgments. My mom doesn't openly share her judgments the way i do sometimes, so i guess that probably makes me seem more judgmental, but in reality i think the opposite is true.

I have an ISFp/SEI mother and she is judgemental in a stereotypical way also. As for me, once I do understand the why of someone, I become less judgemental of them. Actually, everybody knows I am judgmental but they also say I am one of the most accepting people they know. Without this accepting quality, I do not think anybody would confide in me with their insecurities and such. But yes, I am more openly judgemental than my mother.

Yeah, i think i understand what you mean about being pushy. I guess I can be that way sometimes too, especially if i think someone really needs to do something to improve their life. Although I definitely never push people to do things with me. I hate rejection so if someone rejects me once, i usually won't try again. But it's interesting and somewhat strange that your ENTj friend likes you to be adament about doing things together.

Well, the ENTj, when we first met took most of the initiative. I think he had more confidence in himself back then but most of us are at a state where we are thinking about what we are going to do in our life and so forth. Plus, without giving too much information, he has had some problems with relationships.

I certainly was judgmental to a considerable degree when I was younger, as well as being stubborn as a mule on some things. But, I grew out of it... My point, though I didn't even mention that I had a point to begin with, is that such things that can be "fixed," or improved to a point where it's almost nonexistent, are unrelated to socionics. At least, that's what I believe.

I agree, things can be fixed. I guess you could say my judgement determines what exactly needs to be fixed and if the person is willing to work on it, I will be there to support and help them. If not and they have good reason for it, then I will leave them alone and probably not even care about my initial judgment, depending how strongly I feel.

Despite these stereotypes, I can't think of anyone that does not like EIIs. Does anyone dislike them?

People who do not know me very well do not like me, I think. Actually, back in high school, some girls thought I was, pardon the language, as they described me as a bitch. Mainly because I was quiet and did not emote much. One day, one of these girls made a sarcastic joke towards me and I laughed. We all became friends afterwards.

Do people ever complain when their types (or themselves for that matter) are given positive stereotypes?

Generally no, but they do still bother me. The "goody-goody" sterotype bothers me a little. I mean, I just want people to understand why I am that way. The "saint" stereotype is just how people perceive us, not how we perceive ourselves. It can be uncomfortable having that stereotype pinned on to you.


By the way everybody, great discussion.