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Thread: What validates the label 'pragmatist' for LSIs/ISTjs?

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    Default What validates the label 'pragmatist' for LSIs/ISTjs?

    According to the wiki, one of the synonyms for LSI is 'Pragmatist'. I have a hard time understanding that, since I do not consider the LSIs I know pragmatists. In fact, I see pragmatism as a feature of Te, not Ti.

    As I have mentioned before, I have a new manager at work who I believe is LSI. She's hired as an interim manager with the task of changing the IT dept. into something more structured, a department that follows procedures and systems (such as ISO, ITIL etc.), and in fact, she's 'good' at it. Bad side to it, is that she's bringing in new people who are more on her side: people who, like her, are better at following procedures (and think that they have done a good job if they have followed the procedure regardless of its outcome).

    I was talking to a colleague yesterday who recently joined our department. I believe he's a rational Gamma. He started bitching about the new people and their procedure-oriented attitudes and especially how they are not result-oriented. I thought it was so funny, it was a typical complaint of a Te-valuing person against a Ti approach. I could only concur.

    My question is: what is it that validates the label 'pragmatist' for LSIs? I don't see it.
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    It doesn't matter about synonyms.

    LSIs are as pragmatic as any ST.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    It depends primarily on the result that you're seeking. An LSI seeks very different results, than, say, an LIE would. An LIE's primary concern would be the efficiency of the procedures and how well said procedures meet the ends in mind. An LSI, on the other hand, sees keeping the order and structure of the system in place as a priority, which, although not efficient per se, is intended to keep the structure so as to continue the working nature of the system towards whatever end is in mind. The LSI attempts to preserve and protect the system to the best of their ability, and the LIE to perfect the system and procedures in ways that make it more efficient. Without the LSI's protection, the system which the LIE attempts to perfect wouldn't exist--therefore, the LSI can be viewed as practical in that manner, being geared towards preserving the system they see as meeting whatever ends they have in mind.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

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    And the IEI would quit the stupid corporate cocksucking job to hang out with cool homeless people, after constantly being supervised by the LIE.

    Nah I'm just being pessimistic. That wouldn't necessarily happen. =p

    It's cool that you used the word 'protect' because honestly that's how I view all Betas, the ability to protect one another. So the LSI would protect the IEI from the LIE's constant attacks that he feels defenseless against.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    It depends primarily on the result that you're seeking. An LSI seeks very different results, than, say, an LIE would. An LIE's primary concern would be the efficiency of the procedures and how well said procedures meet the ends in mind. An LSI, on the other hand, sees keeping the order and structure of the system in place as a priority, which, although not efficient per se, is intended to keep the structure so as to continue the working nature of the system towards whatever end is in mind. The LSI attempts to preserve and protect the system to the best of their ability, and the LIE to perfect the system and procedures in ways that make it more efficient. Without the LSI's protection, the system which the LIE attempts to perfect wouldn't exist--therefore, the LSI can be viewed as practical in that manner, being geared towards preserving the system they see as meeting whatever ends they have in mind.
    I largely agree with what you are saying here, but it is not clear to me how this behavior by an LSI would qualify as 'pragmatic'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    It depends primarily on the result that you're seeking. An LSI seeks very different results, than, say, an LIE would. An LIE's primary concern would be the efficiency of the procedures and how well said procedures meet the ends in mind. An LSI, on the other hand, sees keeping the order and structure of the system in place as a priority, which, although not efficient per se, is intended to keep the structure so as to continue the working nature of the system towards whatever end is in mind. The LSI attempts to preserve and protect the system to the best of their ability, and the LIE to perfect the system and procedures in ways that make it more efficient. Without the LSI's protection, the system which the LIE attempts to perfect wouldn't exist--therefore, the LSI can be viewed as practical in that manner, being geared towards preserving the system they see as meeting whatever ends they have in mind.
    Fair enough, but to an EIE, an LSI is pretty pragmatic.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    That was actually the point I was attempting to convey. The matter of pragmatism in this case is a matter of perspective.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Hm... I don't know where that label came from. In Russian socionics the label is almost universally "inspector." Maybe some fringe socionics site lists "pragmatist" as the label for the type, and someone carried it over onto the wiki page.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hostage_Child View Post
    Inspector is a much, much better name.
    I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    The matter of pragmatism in this case is a matter of perspective.
    ...

    That's what I said.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    ...

    That's what I said.
    And I was agreeing with you. I was trying to illustrate that was my point with the entire post.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    And I was agreeing with you. I was trying to illustrate that was my point with the entire post.
    Shit, sorry. I misread your original post. I thought you said "That wasn't actually the point I was attempting to convey." My bad.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Hm... I don't know where that label came from. In Russian socionics the label is almost universally "inspector." Maybe some fringe socionics site lists "pragmatist" as the label for the type, and someone carried it over onto the wiki page.
    Well, that explains a lot. I will ignore the 'pragmatist' label, since to me it feels like a contradiction in terms in the context of LSI. But 'Inspector' is what I can agree to wholeheartedly!
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Well, that explains a lot. I will ignore the 'pragmatist' label, since to me it feels like a contradiction in terms in the context of LSI. But 'Inspector' is what I can agree to wholeheartedly!
    I mean. Every ST type is a pragmatist, it's not a classification exclusively tailored for LSIs. Maybe LSIs are the least pragmatic of all pragmatists.
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    I just deleted "pragmatist" (LSI) and "empath" (EII) from the wiki as being nicknames for these types.
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Fair enough, but to an EIE, an LSI is pretty pragmatic.
    true enough.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    Hm... I don't know where that label came from. In Russian socionics the label is almost universally "inspector." Maybe some fringe socionics site lists "pragmatist" as the label for the type, and someone carried it over onto the wiki page.
    I think I found where it came from: socionics.com. Go figure
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    true enough.
    Okay, I'm inclined to believe Betas see it that way, but can you perhaps explain it so other quadras understand it as well? E.g. by providing an example of how an LSI acted in a manner that qualifies as pragmatic.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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