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Thread: The Alternative Problem as a potential proof of Dual-type theory

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    Default The Alternative Problem as a potential proof of Dual-type theory

    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?

    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.

    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.

    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.

    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    awww man. the suspense is killing me.
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    there are different styles of drawing. it may be a matter of the information you observe, but it has less if nothing to do with how you process that information.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?

    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.

    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.

    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.

    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    this is interesting. I have an SEI friend who used to draw a lot (now he does graphic design work). he was apparently quite good at it and did his thesis in college on M.C. Escher. he's also better at expression his emotions indirectly, through either art or body language/positioning and there have been times I've wondered if he's ISTp. I guess he could be ISTp exertion type. So I don't really understand much of the theory here but I can see something similar going on with the SEI artist I know.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?
    self-indulgent

    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.
    what?

    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.
    yes

    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.
    unless theyc hange their language for the allies of their enemies.

    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    how do you get from what you said to this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    how do you get from what you said to this.
    The exertion elements exist. That's beyond dispute. However there is a question of whether they have function positions a la model A. Functional position in a cognition ring is the substance of a differentiated type. The reason the ego block takes precedence, in model A, over the superego block is because one isn't as good with the superego block as with the ego block. Therefore to prove the existence of a second type -- an energy processor whose input/output the information processors described by model A search for relational commonality -- the selection of energy itself must be demonstrated as offering various advantages or disadvantages.

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    the advantage would be the self confirming bias we have regarding our opinions and ideas which comes from and is maintained by a uniformity of information observed. ultimately this acts as a defense mechanism with the goal of maintaining ones current mode of awareness. it is a way of ignoring certain observations, holding oneself back from the ideal form of observation: those observations which directly contradict ones conclusions. The fear of truth, and simplicity; which threatens to destroy and reform our awareness.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The exertion elements exist. That's beyond dispute. However there is a question of whether they have function positions a la model A. Functional position in a cognition ring is the substance of a differentiated type. The reason the ego block takes precedence, in model A, over the superego block is because one isn't as good with the superego block as with the ego block. Therefore to prove the existence of a second type -- an energy processor whose input/output the information processors described by model A search for relational commonality -- the selection of energy itself must be demonstrated as offering various advantages or disadvantages.
    Sorry, could you say that in english.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mercutio View Post
    Sorry, could you say that in english.
    Do not post in my threads.

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    Thinking about it...

    -Fi+Se over -Ti+Ne: directed emotional outrage (channeling) is preferable to choices which create misdirected effects.

    -Ti+Ne over -Fi+Se: precise, targeted selection of causes to invoke for intended effect is preferable to disproportionate force which may result in unanticipated emotional reaction.

    -Si+Te over -Ni+Fe: specific use of work to put a problem to rest is more effective than pleading with others to get the job done.

    -Ni+Fe over -Si+Te: giving others direct orders to perform specific tasks is more effective than fumbling around trying to set things in order by yourself.

    *TENTATIVE*
    +Fe-Ni over +Te-Si: performing a part which sends a wide signal for others to do theirs is preferable to constantly realigning oneself to unstable external conditions just to make a living.

    +Te-Si over +Fe-Ni: aligning oneself with the surrounding work flow is preferable to going out on your own in the vain hope that someone will notice.

    -Ne+Fi over -Se+Ti: concerted appeal to definitive personal values as the criterion for choicemaking has greater reliability than does trying to compell action from a position of nebulosity.

    *TENTATIVE*
    -Se+Ti over -Ne+Fi: exerting proportionate will from a suitable position is preferable to vain overtures which may or may not persuade people to make the necessary choice.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 10-17-2008 at 07:05 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Do not post in my threads.
    You can't own a thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?

    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.

    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.

    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.

    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    Wow dude. Lay off the pseudo-existentialism crap.

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    did you read through the cognitive styles book?
    honestly, I thought your dual-type theory was bollocks...but the book sort of explains the underlying structure for different combinations of jungian functions..ie so what your trying to express here with socionic tools is inefficiently expressing the real life phenomena because the phenomena is at a layer Beneath this. the 8 functions.

    also, if you would read the second book, http://www.cognitivestyles.com/y/book2/Book__c.htm, this explains using the terminology from the first book, how different types can be integrated.

    All that is left to be done is to use the compatibility and the jungian features in the first book and explain socionics in those terms..trust me, it will begin to make a lot more sense, but at the expense of the resoluteness of socionics as we know it. Trust me. you'll love the books, specially the second book if you've read the first.



    ps. sorry for being rude earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Do not post in my threads.
    He has a point. If dual-type theory is to be understood by the socionics community at large, it needs to be made more reader-friendly.
    We can see that the theory is a work of great insight and conceptual organisation...but...it's so hard to understand how everything fits together and what exactly the analogy refers to. Concrete examples would help a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Therefore to prove the existence of a second type -- an energy processor whose input/output the information processors described by model A search for relational commonality -- the selection of energy itself must be demonstrated as offering various advantages or disadvantages.
    Would an individual's selection of an energy processor be dependent, to a large extent, on the nature of their environment/their view of their environment? As the external world has a big say in what outputs are advantageous/disadvantageous.
    And with that, can an individual's energy processor change according to the person's judgement of the needs of the situation/their own needs? Eg. if you take an NF and put them in an NT environment, like say, neuroscience researcher, would they 'regear' to an NT energy processor after a period of time?

    What are the possible combinations of IM/EM? Has this question been answered yet, cos i can't seem to find the info (could someone please direct me to a link)?

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    @ tcaudillig, are you sure you're not using dual-type theory as a way of maintaining your base type? I have tried going through some of your writing, and as much as you say that there may be differences within types that effectively lead to differing thought processing etc, there still has to be a similarity in how you get to a conclusion that should be shared within people of the same type and assuming my self-typing is correct, I do not get that with you.
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?

    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.

    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.

    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.

    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    lmfao


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    For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.
    This is only one side of the coin.

    If you are expected to win, and even the nation which it expects to fight expects you to win, the allies will defect. Logically.

    Because in reality, there exists such a thing as loyalty, it is often necessary to plant spies and use propaganda within the enemy's allies' territory to wield the people against its own nation. When the people are against its leaders, the leaders have no power, and the nation falls.

    Therefore this is what you should expect if you are expected to win:
    1) some of your enemy's allies' defect to your side immediately because they value survival over loyalty.
    2) some of your enemy's allies defect to your side after covert operations because they value survival over loyalty.
    3) some of your enemy's allies willingly assimilate into your enemy's nation due to loyalty, self-sacrificial tendencies, and leadership/manipulative capability on your enemy's part.

    The only way to prevent 3 is to assassinate the enemy, or his allies (depending on which is easier), then wage war.

    This also assumes that you do not have the power to defeat both your enemy and his allies. If you do, then you won't be expecting help from his allies in the first place. A choice of life and death are placed before them. If they are not against you, they are for you. And if they are for you, they live.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckland View Post
    @ tcaudillig, are you sure you're not using dual-type theory as a way of maintaining your base type? I have tried going through some of your writing, and as much as you say that there may be differences within types that effectively lead to differing thought processing etc, there still has to be a similarity in how you get to a conclusion that should be shared within people of the same type and assuming my self-typing is correct, I do not get that with you.
    Yea, I'm also LII and don't understand anything of his theory. My English is not very good but that doesn't seem to be the problem in this case...

    Nevertheless, Tcaud is probably LII.

    Quote Originally Posted by socionics.com
    If there were Weirdness Olympics between all 16 types then INTj would be an unbeatable gold medallist. In fact INTjs are so weird that they do not just appear weird to people who don't know them, but to other INTjs as well.

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    I'm not sure Buckland can be convinced because I think he may have that syndrome McNew has of filtering out ideas he disagrees with without actually proving them wrong first.

    I'm not sure he can see the big picture.... I make a policy of avoiding contact with people who "don't get it" because they NEVER get it. Saves a lot of time and makes you much more productive.

    Of course I could be wrong and mistaken, but after what he's already said the ball's in his court to correct my supposed misimpression.

    The case of a person not being able to assimilate the whole picture is provided for by a disfunction of the belief processors.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I'm not sure Buckland can be convinced because I think he may have that syndrome McNew has of filtering out ideas he disagrees with without actually proving them wrong first.

    I'm not sure he can see the big picture.... I make a policy of avoiding contact with people who "don't get it" because they NEVER get it. Saves a lot of time and makes you much more productive.

    Of course I could be wrong and mistaken, but after what he's already said the ball's in his court to correct my supposed misimpression.

    The case of a person not being able to assimilate the whole picture is provided for by a disfunction of the belief processors.
    I genuinely have tried reading through the material you have posted on this thread as well as on the political types thread (repeatedly)to see if I have missed anything, and nothing seems to turn up. I don't know you, and don't really have anything against you so me criticizing this material is based on nothing more than I don't agree with it. You may think that I am closed off to the possibility of me being wrong, but considering this theory is your creation and you have spent quite a while on it, you have to admit that you're just as, if not more, biased towards being closed off as I am.

    With dual-typing, these all seem to be superficial manifestations of various types based on the relative strength of their functions, emotional and intellectual capabilities as well as upbringing and current environment. Now they could be true, and this thread in particular does not seem to have too much information, but going purely on what you have written before:

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Why do artists enjoy drawing? Why draw as opposed to doing something else? If artistry is conducted with SiTe energy (and SiFe) then how is artistry better than taking the NiFe route?
    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    NiFe, exerted, is emotional response to meaning which sets the course of whatever is around it. SiTe exerted is work which facilitates the exchange of aid. (or creates a sensory impression). If you don't piss people off, then they won't be set on paths apart from you and you won't have to work to get their assistance. Keeping your cool saves you work later.
    I get the initial bit, just re-stating the functions though relatively simplistic, but it is in the context of exertion so... However, the rationale for the SiTe exertion, really? How can you boil it down to simple a reason? So because an Si exertion type wants to maintain/create a sensory state, they will draw instead of verbally expressing their emotions as a way of reducing potential threats? What if art is merely a way of expressing the inexpressible? That emotions being so qualitative, leaves art as the best representation . Here's an example, Welcome to SaveDelara.com. She had nothing to lose from normal expression, why would she choose art?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Drawing is primarily a +Ti affair. Positioning things offers one emotional release. It's just how we work. Certainly the position one takes (body language) infers an emotion held, even one which we are trying to supress. It just so happens that those positions convey a sense of spacing, which in turn conveys imagery because we imagine the positions to be working together.
    How do you come to this conclusion? Drawing=emotional release=Ti? Positioning things (I'm guessing you're talking about pencils, clay or whatever is being used to create the art) is not the target and the art just happens to be a fortunate mistake. The art is the main focus. Whatever you're trying to convey here is definitely lost on me. You should probably expand on this for my sake?

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Expressing your emotion through the medium of art is an alternative to expressing emotion directly, which in turn could put you on a path contravailant to those around you. That divergence of paths could drive a wedge which prevents the receipt of assistance. For example, the nation which prepares for war should not expect assistance from the allies of the nation it expects to fight.
    This, though relatively unrelated, is why I doubt your LII typing. This war imagery, and almost constant referral to good and evil just does not sound like alpha NT. Frankly, it's more similar to B&D posts than what I would consider typical LII behavior. That is partly why I doubt your dual-type theory, because it seems to be a means for you to justify your type. Now my type could be wrong, and if that's the case all of this is off, but I highly doubt that.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Do we have a proof of dual-type theory? Not yet, but getting closer.
    You're narrating a story here. Not exactly conclusive proof, but this is a recurring theme in your posts. I saw previous posts you made where you considered ENFj, what happened?
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnDo View Post
    Yea, I'm also LII and don't understand anything of his theory. My English is not very good but that doesn't seem to be the problem in this case...

    Nevertheless, Tcaud is probably LII.


    The actual material isn't what I am focusing on, it's how he gets to his conclusions that causes me to doubt his type. And being weird and LII are not synonymous. Neither is endless theorizing.
    LII?

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    You have the same condition that Freud and Skinner had, in that you reject permanence that has not been externally cultivated. You have no faith in an even relationship between conditioning and biogenetics -- nor can you even conceptualize of what such a thing would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You have the same condition that Freud and Skinner had, in that you reject permanence that has not been externally cultivated.
    I have very little knowledge on those 2 and whatever positions they may have held and most likely will not read any further into them. However, to a great extent you're right that I do believe that permanence (in terms of psychological structure, memory etc if that's what you mean) is externally cultivated with the exception of the more fundamental traits such as type. These then determine your susceptibility to whatever you eventually become which is controlled by nurture. This is what you're political theory is trying to say, the only difference is that I can't see the reason for the belief processors etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You have no faith in an even relationship between conditioning and biogenetics -- nor can you even conceptualize of what such a thing would be.
    As I said, I have tried going through all of this and spent ages yesterday trying to show you exactly what I had problems with. Was anything that I posted incorrect, because so far all you seem to be saying is that I do not understand your theory rather than addressing what I've written and pointing out the flaws in my arguments (this includes my opinion on your type).
    LII?

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    #1, it's really bad form to argue with someone about their type. You should stop that.

    #2, all I'm proposing is that belief types exist in the same sense that sociotypes exist. Necessarily then, you need brain functions to process beliefs, hence the belief processors.

    #3, that I know of there are no situations where an external signal can permanently alter the functional permanence of a human mind. Although a minority of people will allow trauma to effect their behavior to the extent they are conscious of it, this is a behavioral indicator and not an indicator that the person's actual preferences to act. A person's preferences are static, but not their choices.

    In essence, the desire to be behaviorally molded by past traumas can itself be a preference, if the person has such a belief type as to befit this desire. If this desire it present, it will nonetheless endure because if you think about it, no signal could force its undoing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    #1, it's really bad form to argue with someone about their type. You should stop that.
    I don't see how that's offensive but I guess to each his own. Though you have to concede that if I'm right, then you'd have to reconsider a lot of what you write. I will pm you on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    #2, all I'm proposing is that belief types exist in the same sense that sociotypes exist. Necessarily then, you need brain functions to process beliefs, hence the belief processors.
    Fair enough, but your basic assumption is that belief types exist, something that I have trouble with. This is what's getting me, you've been unable to show what necessitates belief types that is not accounted for in the basic model. Beliefs in my opinion are nothing more than an interaction between your past teachings,experiences etc and your functional preferences. You've created a relatively intricate model, but if that basic assumption is false then the rest is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    #3, that I know of there are no situations where an external signal can permanently alter the functional permanence of a human mind. Although a minority of people will allow trauma to effect their behavior to the extent they are conscious of it, this is a behavioral indicator and not an indicator that the person's actual preferences to act. A person's preferences are static, but not their choices.
    What do you think happens in conditioning? A signal does not have to be as strong and sudden as trauma is to impose a print. A relatively weak but repeated "signal" can cause exactly that. Had I grown up in a predominantly Se environment, surely who I am now would be remarkably different but none the less LII. I don't disagree that functional permanence would be innate, however exertion types which is what dual type seems to describe don't seem inborn. They are likely the consequence of previous events.
    LII?

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    You're not right. I see you've not read my posts on progressivesocionics.co.cc, or you would have read my rationale for my LII self-typing. I care not to repeat it here.

    Fair enough, but your basic assumption is that belief types exist, something that I have trouble with. This is what's getting me, you've been unable to show what necessitates belief types that is not accounted for in the basic model. Beliefs in my opinion are nothing more than an interaction between your past teachings,experiences etc and your functional preferences. You've created a relatively intricate model, but if that basic assumption is false then the rest is irrelevant.
    This just shows you have absolutely no grasp of socionics.

    What do you think happens in conditioning? A signal does not have to be as strong and sudden as trauma is to impose a print. A relatively weak but repeated "signal" can cause exactly that. Had I grown up in a predominantly Se environment, surely who I am now would be remarkably different but none the less LII. I don't disagree that functional permanence would be innate, however exertion types which is what dual type seems to describe don't seem inborn. They are likely the consequence of previous events.
    I think it's very interesting that you waste time trying to disprove my view instead of demonstrating the supposed universal truth of your own. I see that in a lot of journals and the only thing the publishers of those articles have in common is lack of citation, respect, and stature.

    Doubt yourself before doubting others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    This just shows you have absolutely no grasp of socionics.
    A statement like this is useless. What part of it was wrong? I am open to criticism as long as there's backing to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I think it's very interesting that you waste time trying to disprove my view instead of demonstrating the supposed universal truth of your own. I see that in a lot of journals and the only thing the publishers of those articles have in common is lack of citation, respect, and stature.

    Doubt yourself before doubting others.
    I don't have to create a theory of my own for yours to lose credibility. Neither am I suggesting that I hold within me some universal truth. Every single reply I have written to one of your posts has been dealt with by trying to denounce my knowledge in socionics. You have not once attempted to show me where I am wrong. For as long as that continues, how could you possibly expect me to accept your ideas? It just seems like you have created a solution with all of this to a problem that does not exist.
    LII?

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    You're an extremist. My thesis is proven. The conversation is over.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    You're an extremist. My thesis is proven. The conversation is over.
    When was your 'thesis' proven?

    All I'm saying, which with probably any other person who was not so personally invested in an idea, is show me where I'm wrong. I keep asking for that which has now earned me an "extremist" label. If you're unable to do that, then you should at least acknowledge the POSSIBILITY that you're wrong.
    LII?

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    Eh heh. *block*

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