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Thread: Negative traits of Gamma NTs

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    Default Negative traits of Gamma NTs.

    For niffweed and whomever to add to their future self-aggrandizing descriptions.

    ILIs:


    Are often socially bizarre, sometimes to the point of absurdity, saying and doing humiliating things whilst not giving a shit. They require a short leash at all times if this is to be prevented (e.g., at a wedding).

    Have the hygienic standards and discipline of insane wild monkeys. To ILIs, the shower is an annoying obstacle to be avoided at all costs, and they will generally only venture there every three to five days.

    Body hair is another issue, especially for the unemployed ILI, whose lack of financial incentives leads to personal, esoteric Ni endeavors being prioritized over such high-maintenance tasks as personal grooming. Body hair tends to exist in unkempt, unsightly thatches of madness all over the ILI's figure, often causing confusion and panic amongst other people if the ILI visits the zoo.

    ILIs, being aware of their awkwardness, tend to seek refuge in their intellectual pursuits, justifying their perceived weaknesses by keeping a self-image of brilliance and insightfulness, whether or not these are real aspects of their personalities.

    Cogent is not a word to describe ILIs, whose tendency to communicate in abstruse, satirical quips can lead to bewilderment and even depression in the unwary listener.

    Particularly grumpy ILIs frequently sully their personal relationships by saying outrageously tactless things with zero self-awareness. For example, if an ILI were ever to form an opinion on say, their partner's attire, (in this case, a negative opinion) they would most likely say something along the lines of, "That is an ugly shirt, and you have terrible taste if you think it looks good on you. I know I'm not the only person who thinks so." Luckily, their dual, Rocky Balboa, will think this sort of comment hilarious for some reason, and the ILI will get a pass. However, the majority of human beings will feel repulsed by such grotesque candor, and will be less likely to indulge the ILI with more of their time.

    LIEs:

    Cannot possibly carry out simple day-to-day tasks. This often leads to their homes being declared disaster areas, as the piles and piles of dirty laundry and dirty dishes, mountains of junk mail, papers, miscellaneous junk, and even garbage, often find their way into the ENTjs ever-growing accumulation of what I like to call OH MY FUCKING GOD rubbish. Luckily for them their dual, the pissy-yet-sexual ESI, will ruthlessly go about removing this junk at their own discretion, with or without the approval of the LIE.

    LIEs often feel that they need to be "more social," a noble sentiment that the LIE would do better to not ever attempt. Fearing boring or offending people with Te information, LIEs who embark on this task of socialization tend to talk too much and too fast about absolutely nothing. LIEs also possess a general inability to read social cues, such as when to end a conversation or leave a party. This unfortunate confluence of hurried discourse and social blindness can lead to feelings of inadequacy in the LIE, who worries that boring people will mean being alone.

    LIEs, preferring to strategize, often leave smaller, important tasks undone. Leaving an LIE in charge of the Overlook Hotel would be unwise, as he is liable to forget about the boiler while ruminating on his latest career schemes, resulting in calamity and the LIE's death.

    LIEs have vivid imaginations. For example, when presented with a question whose answer is evidently Yes, the LIE will imagine some ambiguity where there is none, and be unable to decide between Yes, No, and Maybe.

    LIEs have some difficulty with the concept that doing something requires that you do it. As simple as this seems, LIEs can actually fuck it up and not do the thing in question, even though all they had to do to not utterly fail was get up and do it instead of not doing it, which is what they did instead of doing it. While LIEs do tend to eventually get around to doing it, it is often too late. Fortunately, their ESI dual, who easily carries out tasks, regards this spectacle as an adorable and exotic foreign comedy, and will help their LIE companion perform these quaint trivialities.
    Last edited by discojoe; 10-10-2008 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post

    LIEs:

    Cannot possibly carry out simple day-to-day tasks. This often leads to their homes being declared disaster areas, as the piles and piles of dirty laundry and dirty dishes, mountains of junk mail, papers, miscellaneous junk, and even garbage, often find their way into the ENTjs ever-growing accumulation of what I like to call OH MY FUCKING GOD rubbish. Luckily for them their dual, the pissy-yet-sexual ESI, will ruthlessly go about removing this junk at their own discretion, with or without the approval of the LIE.

    LIEs often feel that they need to be "more social," a noble sentiment that the LIE would do better to not ever attempt. Fearing boring or offending people with Te information, LIEs who embark on this task of socialization tend to talk too much and too fast about absolutely nothing. LIEs also possess a general inability to read social cues, such as when to end a conversation or leave a party. This unfortunate confluence of hurried discourse and social blindness can lead to feelings of inadequacy in the LIE, who worries that boring people will mean being alone.

    LIEs, preferring to strategize, often leave smaller, important tasks undone. Leaving an LIE in charge of the Overlook Hotel would be unwise, as he is liable to forget about the boiler while ruminating on his latest career schemes, resulting in calamity and the LIE's death.

    LIEs have vivid imaginations. For example, when presented with a question whose answer is evidently Yes, the LIE will imagine some ambiguity where there is none, and be unable to decide between Yes, No, and Maybe.

    LIEs have some difficulty with the concept that doing something requires that you do it. As simple as this seems, LIEs can actually fuck it up and not to the thing in question, even though all they had to do to not utterly fail was get up and do it instead of not doing it, which is what they did instead of doing it. While LIEs do tend to eventually get around to doing it, it is often too late. Fortunately, their ESI dual, who easily carries out tasks, regards this spectacle as an adorable and exotic foreign comedy, and will help their LIE companion perform these quaint trivialities.
    haha, I actually agree with these (maybe not very much the last one, but perhaps it depends on what you mean)
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    5 stars imo
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    And a great read.

    Would read again.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    haha, I actually agree with these (maybe not very much the last one, but perhaps it depends on what you mean)
    Well, it's a symbiotic thing they share with ESIs, I think:

    ESI: Do this.

    LIE: Not yet. It doesn't need to be done for a couple hours. I will do it then.

    ESI: OK.

    Or:

    ESI: Do this.

    LIE: Yeah, you're right. *does thing*

    The LIE is the one who "knows" when it needs to be done, and the ESI is the one who "makes sure" it gets done, though of course it's not some tidy process that always occurs the same way.

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    5 stars imo
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    Nice ILI description. I think my colleague's would agree.

    I usually have the appearance of a homeless person when arriving at work.

    But I don't care. hehehe

    I do however go in bath everyday.

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    the ILI part seems accurate as a sort of caricature.

    i know the part about tactlessness was supposed to be funny, but i do think a lot of people misinterpret weak Fe as "tactlessness." while i wouldn't doubt that an ILI would say that sort of thing on occasion, i think being clueless about forming an opinion is more likely. so, for example, a question such as "do you like my shirt?" may elicit responses such as "hm, i guess.." or "is that handmade?" instead of a statement of strong like or dislike for the shirt. often, the lack of opinion can be interpreted as "mean."
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa View Post
    while i wouldn't doubt that an ILI would say that sort of thing on occasion, i think being clueless about forming an opinion is more likely. so, for example, a question such as "do you like my shirt?" may elicit responses such as "hm, i guess.." or "is that handmade?" instead of a statement of strong like or dislike for the shirt. often, the lack of opinion can be interpreted as "mean."
    Fwiw, this sort of thing (lack of enthusiasm about anything being discussed) does really annoy my Alpha SF dad in large doses.
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    also always remember that ESI, if male, is probably a homosexual
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    Quote Originally Posted by reyn_til_runa View Post
    i know the part about tactlessness was supposed to be funny, but i do think a lot of people misinterpret weak Fe as "tactlessness." while i wouldn't doubt that an ILI would say that sort of thing on occasion, i think being clueless about forming an opinion is more likely. so, for example, a question such as "do you like my shirt?" may elicit responses such as "hm, i guess.." or "is that handmade?" instead of a statement of strong like or dislike for the shirt. often, the lack of opinion can be interpreted as "mean."
    Yeah something actually tactless that I actually could say in that kind of situation, if I didn't think through, could be something like:"who cares what you wear". When I really mean combination of: they will like you just much regardless/just wear what you want/everything is probably just as good/that kind of preoccupation with clothes pointless/what is something that looks "good" or correct anyway/I don't know...
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warlord View Post
    Yeah something actually tactless that I actually could say in that kind of situation, if I didn't think through, could be something like:"who cares what you wear". When I really mean combination of: they will like you just much regardless/just wear what you want/everything is probably just as good/that kind of preoccupation with clothes pointless/what is something that looks "good" or correct anyway/I don't know...
    exactly.
    I remember saying something similar to my ESE mom, and she misunderstood me. I simply told her that it's ridiculous that she feels the need to cook dinner just for me, and she interpreted it as me not appreciating her efforts. not the case at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Bleck at the first paragraph. I don't want to be anyone's maid.
    NO, ALL ISFJS ARE MAIDS.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    lol. That is how you made it sound - like we happily pick up after our messy and chaotic dual. Ick.
    That's not what I meant. In my own experience, I ignore most clutter until it reaches a certain point. Then I go about removing it at my own discretion. I've gone around the house with a hefty cleanup bag and thrown away bag-fulls of stuff I didn't want to look at anymore, to Joy's chagrin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Bleck at the first paragraph. I don't want to be anyone's maid.
    I do think that ISFjs don't really like to pick up it, but they eventually do it (I also think that in the ENTjs definitely learn how to take care of their environment; the times when they(we) let everything slip if there's many things that they (we) perceive as "very important".)
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    Yeah, it's not that they like to clean up, but that they actually do it, whereas LIEs just roll around in piles of crap.

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    I would tell them to pick it up, and if they kept putting it off, I'd tell them that if they don't pick it up, than I will....and I'll do what I want with it. So if there are things you want to keep in there...you better do it yourself.


    There is a very distinct difference between the two descriptions, the LIE one being better. But I guess it's obvious why. Oh well.
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    Some days ago my LIE friend called me. He said he wanted to eat with me. I told him I was busy at the moment, but that we could eat any other day. I even called him two days after to remind him, but he also said he's busy.

    I wonder if this has to do with the negative traits listed. One being afraid of becoming alone and the other being unwilling to switch from "planning mode" to "doing mode".
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Some days ago my LIE friend called me. He said he wanted to eat with me. I told him I was busy at the moment, but that we could eat any other day. I even called him two days after to remind him, but he also said he's busy.

    I wonder if this has to do with the negative traits listed. One being afraid of becoming alone and the other being unwilling to switch from "planning mode" to "doing mode".
    Perhaps he just wanted to eat with you on day X, and on day X+2 he was busy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    Luckily, their dual, Rocky Balboa, will think this sort of comment hilarious for some reason, and the ILI will get a pass.
    That was, by far, the funniest line in this masterpiece.
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    Those are negatives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by discojoe View Post
    For niffweed and whomever to add to their future self-aggrandizing descriptions.

    ILIs:


    Are often socially bizarre, sometimes to the point of absurdity, saying and doing humiliating things whilst not giving a shit. They require a short leash at all times if this is to be prevented (e.g., at a wedding).

    Have the hygienic standards and discipline of insane wild monkeys. To ILIs, the shower is an annoying obstacle to be avoided at all costs, and they will generally only venture there every three to five days.

    Body hair is another issue, especially for the unemployed ILI, whose lack of financial incentives leads to personal, esoteric Ni endeavors being prioritized over such high-maintenance tasks as personal grooming. Body hair tends to exist in unkempt, unsightly thatches of madness all over the ILI's figure, often causing confusion and panic amongst other people if the ILI visits the zoo.

    ILIs, being aware of their awkwardness, tend to seek refuge in their intellectual pursuits, justifying their perceived weaknesses by keeping a self-image of brilliance and insightfulness, whether or not these are real aspects of their personalities.

    Cogent is not a word to describe ILIs, whose tendency to communicate in abstruse, satirical quips can lead to bewilderment and even depression in the unwary listener.

    Particularly grumpy ILIs frequently sully their personal relationships by saying outrageously tactless things with zero self-awareness. For example, if an ILI were ever to form an opinion on say, their partner's attire, (in this case, a negative opinion) they would most likely say something along the lines of, "That is an ugly shirt, and you have terrible taste if you think it looks good on you. I know I'm not the only person who thinks so." Luckily, their dual, Rocky Balboa, will think this sort of comment hilarious for some reason, and the ILI will get a pass. However, the majority of human beings will feel repulsed by such grotesque candor, and will be less likely to indulge the ILI with more of their time.

    LIEs:

    Cannot possibly carry out simple day-to-day tasks. This often leads to their homes being declared disaster areas, as the piles and piles of dirty laundry and dirty dishes, mountains of junk mail, papers, miscellaneous junk, and even garbage, often find their way into the ENTjs ever-growing accumulation of what I like to call OH MY FUCKING GOD rubbish. Luckily for them their dual, the pissy-yet-sexual ESI, will ruthlessly go about removing this junk at their own discretion, with or without the approval of the LIE.

    LIEs often feel that they need to be "more social," a noble sentiment that the LIE would do better to not ever attempt. Fearing boring or offending people with Te information, LIEs who embark on this task of socialization tend to talk too much and too fast about absolutely nothing. LIEs also possess a general inability to read social cues, such as when to end a conversation or leave a party. This unfortunate confluence of hurried discourse and social blindness can lead to feelings of inadequacy in the LIE, who worries that boring people will mean being alone.

    LIEs, preferring to strategize, often leave smaller, important tasks undone. Leaving an LIE in charge of the Overlook Hotel would be unwise, as he is liable to forget about the boiler while ruminating on his latest career schemes, resulting in calamity and the LIE's death.

    LIEs have vivid imaginations. For example, when presented with a question whose answer is evidently Yes, the LIE will imagine some ambiguity where there is none, and be unable to decide between Yes, No, and Maybe.

    LIEs have some difficulty with the concept that doing something requires that you do it. As simple as this seems, LIEs can actually fuck it up and not do the thing in question, even though all they had to do to not utterly fail was get up and do it instead of not doing it, which is what they did instead of doing it. While LIEs do tend to eventually get around to doing it, it is often too late. Fortunately, their ESI dual, who easily carries out tasks, regards this spectacle as an adorable and exotic foreign comedy, and will help their LIE companion perform these quaint trivialities.
    This is pretty funny but I don't get the ILI one, it sounds COMPLETELY like LII to me. My ILI brother is well groomed (spends more time on his hair than I do) and socially competent (can keep a conversation going when he sees a business opportunity to it).

    The other possibility is there are distinct subtypes of ILI. One is as you described, the other pays attention to his social image.

    I've definitely noticed this among ESIs, one type is really immaculate, the other is really unhygienic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blood moon View Post
    This is pretty funny but I don't get the ILI one, it sounds COMPLETELY like LII to me. My ILI brother is well groomed (spends more time on his hair than I do) and socially competent (can keep a conversation going when he sees a business opportunity to it).

    The other possibility is there are distinct subtypes of ILI. One is as you described, the other pays attention to his social image.

    I've definitely noticed this among ESIs, one type is really immaculate, the other is really unhygienic.
    The description sounds very LII to me also, but I could see any autistic or mentally ill NT fitting the description. He actually described my mentally ill ILE roommate last semester pretty well.

    Just as a disclaimer, I've met some very socially competent LIIs who don't reflect the description at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Contra View Post
    The description sounds very LII to me also, but I could see any autistic or mentally ill NT fitting the description. He actually described my mentally ill ILE roommate last semester pretty well.

    Just as a disclaimer, I've met some very socially competent LIIs who don't reflect the description at all.
    But do mentally ill individuals have a "type" ?

    And yes, not trying to make LIIs look bad. But even the one LII I've liked the most out of all LIIs I've come across, enough to even have a (very) brief hook-up with, was still hopelessly averse to showers and socially embarrassing. Great guy though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blood moon View Post
    But do mentally ill individuals have a "type" ?

    And yes, not trying to make LIIs look bad. But even the one LII I've liked the most out of all LIIs I've come across, enough to even have a (very) brief hook-up with, was still hopelessly averse to showers and socially embarrassing. Great guy though.
    It probably depends on what you mean by mentally ill. My roommate who I mentioned had depression, severe ADHD, autism symptoms, and actually a lot of schizophrenia symptoms. It was pretty clear he had a type though. I think people who have schizophrenia and other severe disorders still have a type and are (probably) typeable. However, if you are mentally retarded it's still up to question, I'd imagine.

    I should probably say that I've met LIIs who didn't have any of these traits and were really normal cool people, but I've also met LIIs who have had most of these traits. I think ILIs have their own negative traits but this post doesn't capture most of them.

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    Bang on for LIE. It's so liberating to know the inertia is Type-related. It's caused by a fear of jumping into Se mode prematurely, without 100% complete Ni information. To act at the wrong time would be wasteful...an inefficient expenditure of energy, when there are 49 other things on the To-do List. Better to apply one's energy to the List item with fixed parameters, thereby ensuring a correct execution. I often fail to act in case the parameters alter slightly, whereby Plan 16-B would have been the preferred action, as opposed to applying Te plan "14-C".

    Also, regarding daily household tasks, they must be paired with other tasks to justify giving one's time and attention to the matter. For instance--waiting until I need something from the loft before making the trek and bringing all the items piled on the stairs headed that way. And any trip from room-to-room is never to be undertaken empty handed, as there is task-related information stored in wait for just the correct timing in order to best utilize one's time &effort.

    Luckily, I have evolved to realize I do not need to be so Extraverted, that the world is fine without me trying orchestrate the fun. The best example of this is leaving Facebook and realizing how empowering it is too reclaim that time. There actually is no social obligation log book to measure up to. I don't know other ENTjs, but for myself, a more introverted lifestyle seems to be a much healthier and more natural type-related match.

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    LOL descriptions

    Quote Originally Posted by blood moon View Post
    But even the one LII I've liked the most out of all LIIs I've come across, enough to even have a (very) brief hook-up with, was still hopelessly averse to showers and socially embarrassing. Great guy though.
    I can see why some LIIs could reject to focus on mundane and trivial stuff like caring about external aspect. I remember reading some of them have certain trend to look as cavemen. But the shower thing I find it strange. One think is not giving a fuck about "irrelevant" things, and another thing is adopting a clearly unhealthy lifestile. They're Si valuers afterall.

    I cannot conceive why someone would reject (or ignore) taking a shower [bath] regularly. Beyond physical benefits, it also has psychological ones. It's like... you're not only cleaning on the outside, but also in the inside, eliminating all the negative [emotions] you've accumulated while your mind flies away to an atemporal realm. When I do not have to do it too quickly, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    Bang on for LIE. It's so liberating to know the inertia is Type-related. It's caused by a fear of jumping into Se mode prematurely, without 100% complete Ni information. To act at the wrong time would be wasteful...an inefficient expenditure of energy, when there are 49 other things on the To-do List. Better to apply one's energy to the List item with fixed parameters, thereby ensuring a correct execution. I often fail to act in case the parameters alter slightly, whereby Plan 16-B would have been the preferred action, as opposed to applying Te plan "14-C".
    Not sure how much of this is accurate (for LIEs in general) but to me this sounds a bit like micromanaging stuff in a way closer to LSEs than LIEs. Your description sounds like consciously considering all minute details about what you have to do, whereas the caricature (and I agree) describes it more like not being (totally) aware of present and mundane tasks because their minds are naturally focused in "big schemes" in an intuitive fashion and consquently cannot focus well in here and now. More like a natural and unconscious behavior that conscious decisions.

    I see it as if the LIE mind would be an engine designed for working at full speed and for long races; if you force the engine to adjust constantly to abrupt variations of speed (like slowing down for doing menial work) it could overload [overheat] and explode = EJ temperament + intuitive.
    Last edited by MensSuperMateriam; 09-04-2014 at 10:45 AM.

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    Thats pretty damn funny. Well done.

    Now this is a story all about how, my type got changed, turned upside down. Just wait for a minute and watch chatbox right there, & I'll tell how Gem became the moderator with blue hair.

    In typology central friended and praised, on the picture thread was where she spent most her days. Chilling out, selfies, relaxing all cool, And all typing some people and getting them schooled.

    When a couple of girls who were up to no good, Started annoying her & her friends in the forumhood, She got in one little flame war & got pissed off & said 'I'm moving in with that exboyfriend in the forum with the socionics toffs.

    So Gem pulls up to the forum for a year without being a hater, And yells to typocentral 'Yo creeps! Smell Ya later', Became a mod in her kingdom she was finally there, To sit on her throne as the mod with blue hair.

    InvisibruJim

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    I agree that my post reads as if I am "consciously considering all minute details". With respect to the Ego functions, I believe each type consciously knows what they're doing & why.

    According to ENTj Description by Filatova: "Ni – Creative function. In order to work rationally it is especially important to plan beforehand so as not to waste any time in vain....Introverted intuition manifests itself in his irrepressible imagination, the ability to consciously combine events and facts, within his mind, which are incompatible with reality."

    And yes, using the engine analogy, I would describe LIE's Ni as the conscious use of clutch to the Te throttle--adeptly controlling the pace of action to maximize overall fuel economy. I don't agree that this places the engine at risk for overheating, I believe the clutch's constant control of pacing will allow the vehicle to cross the finish line with an overall faster time.

    I disagree that one becomes unaware of the mundane tasks at hand in favour of a focus in big schemes. Rather, it is that the person becomes mired down &overwhelmed by a fear of choosing the wrong timing or mode of execution of the action. Thus a form of over analyzation and subsequent paralysis ensues. At no time is the action itself out of either sight or mind, indeed it remains cocked and ready for release until the ideal circumstances arise, or through time more information becomes available to renovate the plan into a more perfect form.

    An example of LIE paralysis: a friend was moving across the country and a farewell party was planned. When told of this, I purchased a card. I waited to see if I would be in town the weekend of the party, in which case I was also going to purchase a gift. When certain that I would be out-of-town and unable to attend, my plan was to take the card to a neighbour's who I knew was planning to attend, and ask her to give it to the friend. A few days prior to the party, I became stuck on whether to call and arrange a time convenient to the neighbour, in order to drop off the card. That seemed rather too formal and too much of an imposition, so I instead thought I would wait until I had time to just pop by and informally drop it off. Then I rethought that plan, since I didn't want to initiate a relationship with the neighbour where we could just pop over, as I had gotten a sense from this neighbour that she would enjoy doing so too often. In other words: I don't have "time" in my life for a neighbour who has time for popping in unannounced for various random reasons. So then I revised my plan that I would keep the card in my purse for when I ran into any of the people who I knew would be attending.

    Of course the party came and went, so I kept the card in my purse in case I ran into the friend himself before he left. By then it was too late to mail it since it would arrive after he moved. I hadn't wanted to mail it anyway since that seemed too impersonal. Then I thought about taking a picture of the card (it was humorous and amusing) and posting it on his Facebook as a farewell. However my distaste of the attention-seeking vehicle that is Facebook prevented me from making such a public spectacle of my ineptitude in giving a person a simple farewell card. Then I justified the debacle by telling myself that he had many friends closer than myself, and who was I to think that my card really mattered in the scheme of things.

    So you can see, that at no point was I unaware of this mundane task, I was just hoping for a naturally occurring time, place and opportunity to align for a Perfect Goodbye. In the end, no action was preferable at each check point where a contrived and unsatisfactory action could have been undertaken.

    Sorry for giving such a lame example. Finally...I waited until the card became physically tattered, thereby taking the option of sending it off the table. I used it to write a "To-Do List" on, thereby squeezing some semblance of functionality out of my Fail. In this way, I suppose ENTjs can resemble Myers-Briggs Ps--wait it out, and perhaps no (imperfect) decision will ever be necessary, thereby making no decision the right one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    I agree that my post reads as if I am "consciously considering all minute details". With respect to the Ego functions, I believe each type consciously knows what they're doing & why.

    According to ENTj Description by Filatova: "Ni – Creative function. In order to work rationally it is especially important to plan beforehand so as not to waste any time in vain....Introverted intuition manifests itself in his irrepressible imagination, the ability to consciously combine events and facts, within his mind, which are incompatible with reality."

    And yes, using the engine analogy, I would describe LIE's Ni as the conscious use of clutch to the Te throttle--adeptly controlling the pace of action to maximize overall fuel economy. I don't agree that this places the engine at risk for overheating, I believe the clutch's constant control of pacing will allow the vehicle to cross the finish line with an overall faster time.

    I disagree that one becomes unaware of the mundane tasks at hand in favour of a focus in big schemes. Rather, it is that the person becomes mired down &overwhelmed by a fear of choosing the wrong timing or mode of execution of the action. Thus a form of over analyzation and subsequent paralysis ensues. At no time is the action itself out of either sight or mind, indeed it remains cocked and ready for release until the ideal circumstances arise, or through time more information becomes available to renovate the plan into a more perfect form.

    An example of LIE paralysis: a friend was moving across the country and a farewell party was planned. When told of this, I purchased a card. I waited to see if I would be in town the weekend of the party, in which case I was also going to purchase a gift. When certain that I would be out-of-town and unable to attend, my plan was to take the card to a neighbour's who I knew was planning to attend, and ask her to give it to the friend. A few days prior to the party, I became stuck on whether to call and arrange a time convenient to the neighbour, in order to drop off the card. That seemed rather too formal and too much of an imposition, so I instead thought I would wait until I had time to just pop by and informally drop it off. Then I rethought that plan, since I didn't want to initiate a relationship with the neighbour where we could just pop over, as I had gotten a sense from this neighbour that she would enjoy doing so too often. In other words: I don't have "time" in my life for a neighbour who has time for popping in unannounced for various random reasons. So then I revised my plan that I would keep the card in my purse for when I ran into any of the people who I knew would be attending.

    Of course the party came and went, so I kept the card in my purse in case I ran into the friend himself before he left. By then it was too late to mail it since it would arrive after he moved. I hadn't wanted to mail it anyway since that seemed too impersonal. Then I thought about taking a picture of the card (it was humorous and amusing) and posting it on his Facebook as a farewell. However my distaste of the attention-seeking vehicle that is Facebook prevented me from making such a public spectacle of my ineptitude in giving a person a simple farewell card. Then I justified the debacle by telling myself that he had many friends closer than myself, and who was I to think that my card really mattered in the scheme of things.

    So you can see, that at no point was I unaware of this mundane task, I was just hoping for a naturally occurring time, place and opportunity to align for a Perfect Goodbye. In the end, no action was preferable at each check point where a contrived and unsatisfactory action could have been undertaken.

    Sorry for giving such a lame example. Finally...I waited until the card became physically tattered, thereby taking the option of sending it off the table. I used it to write a "To-Do List" on, thereby squeezing some semblance of functionality out of my Fail. In this way, I suppose ENTjs can resemble Myers-Briggs Ps--wait it out, and perhaps no (imperfect) decision will ever be necessary, thereby making no decision the right one.
    Lol, amazing

    Does it come to you sometimes that you get really annoyed by this and just decide to do it because it is sooooo annoying and unnerving that you'd just prefer for it to be behind you? Or you don't really care and let it pass/do nothing/don't even get any frustration out of it?
    P.S: When something like you described occur to me - wait for the right time etc, just like you mentioned - it wears me down so much (physically and mentaly) that I prefer to simply mess it up (more or less) and do it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaBallsUSA View Post
    P.S: When something like you described occur to me - wait for the right time etc, just like you mentioned - it wears me down so much (physically and mentaly) that I prefer to simply mess it up (more or less) and do it.
    Same here.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Same here.
    We are mind liked brother then.

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    I get your point, ENJoymENT. Still, what you're describing doesn't sound specifically LIE to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    And yes, using the engine analogy, I would describe LIE's Ni as the conscious use of clutch to the Te throttle--adeptly controlling the pace of action to maximize overall fuel economy. I don't agree that this places the engine at risk for overheating, I believe the clutch's constant control of pacing will allow the vehicle to cross the finish line with an overall faster time.

    I disagree that one becomes unaware of the mundane tasks at hand in favour of a focus in big schemes. Rather, it is that the person becomes mired down &overwhelmed by a fear of choosing the wrong timing or mode of execution of the action. Thus a form of over analyzation and subsequent paralysis ensues. At no time is the action itself out of either sight or mind, indeed it remains cocked and ready for release until the ideal circumstances arise, or through time more information becomes available to renovate the plan into a more perfect form.
    I could be wrong, but now what you're saying sounds to me a bit more ILI than LIE. Overthinking potential pathways, waiting for the right moment, is what ILIs tend to do in comparison with LIEs. The extroverted gamma NT is quite more proactive and impulsive; usually does not wait for the right moment. Time does not wait is their motto (Ej attitute); whereas ILIs, as Ip, adopt the go with the flow solution (for them, opportunities come to those who know how to wait).

    LIEs do not fear making mistakes, and do not act according to such fear (in comparison, not like black or white). They prefer to adapt the external cimstances, instead adapting to them (Ej vs Ip). Of course subtype could play a big role, and Ni subs would work closer to such reactive mode.

    Or maybe be're both talking about the same but expressing it in a different way.

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    @MegaBallsUSA: ohhhh yes! I would tell myself:

    "you bought the card...early even! That in itself is an impressive feat for you, for once conforming &doing the "right thing". The fact that he gets the fucking card should be more important than any perfect &naturally occurring (fought off temptation to use the word "organic") scenario that would come across as caring &sentimental, yet showing it in an original way, thereby making it more meaningful."

    I have an innate dislike for the ordinary, in that to conform gives me a discontented feeling that I'm "selling out". The whole Hallmark mentality of "it's Valentines--give her diamonds; and for every occasion, there is a card for that, so buy buy buy, everyone else is doing it, you need to do so or you'll be left behind and thought of as uncaring." That plays right into Inferior Fi...for a mere $3 you can ensure that you will be seen for the sentimental person you are underneath. However, principle ends up winning out, so I would rather forego the standard-issue card, and force myself out of my Inferior shell to show his importance to me in a real and spontaneous, as yet to be determined way. I guess I haven't let it go, and some time in the future he will know I admire and have a caring feeling for him. Further complicating things was the fact that he is male and married, so I didn't want my farewell to be perceived as a come-on or that I had feelings for him other than friendship. That is why I mentally removed a Facebook Inbox message or finding out his new address and mailing the card, from the list of viable options.

    So yes I DO get frustration out of it, yet giving in and doing it imperfectly would leave me with a greater feeling of discontent in the end. Ironically, if I had liked him less as a person, he would have gotten the card in an unsatisfactory manner, and I would have had no regrets.

    @MensSuperMateriam: Re your quote

    "not being (totally) aware of present and mundane tasks because their minds are naturally focused in "big schemes" in an intuitive fashion"

    This in my opinion doesn't describe the LIE, but rather the LII. The LIE is consciously aware of all tasks, but has prioritized them in a ranking of importance based on what kind of shelf-life or time limit each task has. The LII in my experience, will simply not turn their mind towards considering any task that doesn't directly further the progress of whatever Ne scheme they are currently deeply immersed in.
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 09-04-2014 at 07:05 PM. Reason: Misspelled "Materiam"

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    "not being (totally) aware of present and mundane tasks because their minds are naturally focused in "big schemes" in an intuitive fashion"

    This in my opinion doesn't describe the LIE, but rather the LII. The LIE is consciously aware of all tasks, but has prioritized them in a ranking of importance based on what kind of shelf-life or time limit each task has. The LII in my experience, will simply not turn their mind towards considering any task that doesn't directly further the progress of whatever Ne scheme they are currently deeply immersed in.
    Sounds plausible. You could be right.

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    @MensSuperMateriam: I used to be bolder and less fearful of making mistakes. I believe it points to a personal evolution as an ENTj to not believe I always am doing things the "right way". That, and having an ENTp father who is always there to show me an alternative way of "being right"...plus having been in a long-term relationship with a LII--who in fact IS always right!! I mean that in the most admirable way, since in my opinion Ti is always more intrinsically and unbiasedly correct than Te.

    Add to that being a female E3w2, and you have a cautious, open-minded and second-guessing ENTj. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.


    ....Perhaps being in that relationship rendered my bold ENTj-ness effectively "Extinguished".
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 09-04-2014 at 07:43 PM. Reason: Added final thought :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    @MensSuperMateriam: I used to be bolder and less fearful of making mistakes. I believe it points to a personal evolution as an ENTj to not believe I always am doing things the "right way". That, and having an ENTp father who is always there to show me an alternative way of "being right"...plus having been in a long-term relationship with a LII--who in fact IS always right!! I mean that in the most admirable way, since in my opinion Ti is always more intrinsically and unbiasedly correct than Te.

    Add to that being a female E3w2, and you have a cautious, open-minded and second-guessing ENTj. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.
    LIE dating a LII? Friends of course, but dating, long-term relationship? Are you completely sure about both your types? Sounds like a extremely uncommon match.

    Do you remember when I suggested to you considering EIE? In this case you would be semiduals, which makes much more sense. Also I'm surprised about your appreciation of Ti dom. Very unusual for a Te dom to speak about Ti in such terms, when both groups have a radical different approach to the same problems.

    And Te role (for you) instead leading sounds better for a person who self-describes as very cautious in the process of making decisions. Gotcha

    Not trying to create a discussion about your type here. But take in consideration my words, just in case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    @MegaBallsUSA: ohhhh yes! I would tell myself:

    "you bought the card...early even! That in itself is an impressive feat for you, for once conforming &doing the "right thing". The fact that he gets the fucking card should be more important than any perfect &naturally occurring (fought off temptation to use the word "organic") scenario that would come across as caring &sentimental, yet showing it in an original way, thereby making it more meaningful."
    .
    This stuff right here. When I'm in a situation like that I always end up having this (dumb, horrible and annoying) conversation with myself, reasoning it out loud and telling me why and why and why. Somehow at the end I feel better, less frustrated and I do something about it or take something in consideration to fix the problem.
    I.E: I was wondering what to do about a date, should I do this or that, should I wait before calling, should I call or text, what it'd mean if I sent a text or a call, what it'd mean if I sent it today or tomorrow, what it'd mean if I sent it in the morning or in the afternoon, etc etc. Then I'd ask myself why I would even care about that and on and on until I'm satisfied with my answers/what I've found (I guess I just dig deep in me until I'm pleased with what I find).

    Anyway, that's how I come accros this issue, I find it as annoying as possible because why would I need to do this - the discussion to myself - to feel better when I don't even know why I feel bad for stupid things like this - i.e the exemple with the date?

    Thanks for sharing thought

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    Still sexy tho, amirite?

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    @MensSuperMateriam: If you must get me yet not get me, then so be it.

    I don't believe relationships of Extinguishment are as uncommon as you assume. Radically different approaches to the same problems--yes, but more often than not, ending up with and valuing the same conclusion. And a Te Dom would absolutely speak admiringly of a Ti Dom if it had been proven, over time, that the LII was in fact more often correct. Things which can be measured over time--such as GPA, investment decisions, entrepreneurial success, an ENTj is most certainly capable of valuing, admiring and appreciating. I met the LII in business school, so right from the beginning it was apparent to me that he had a firmer grasp on internal logical reasoning, which was extrinsically valued as a necessary ingredient for business success.

    With respect to my ENTp father, I could call him any time my vehicle broke down and he would insist on meticulously explaining the repair so that next time I could perform said repair myself (as my mind glazed over). How could I not appreciate such practical eptitude, when I knew I lacked his ability, and it resulted in me getting back in my vehicle, turning the ignition key, and carrying on my way?

    As for being cautious and second-guessing myself, I shudder in embarrassment at the times in my youth where I confidently insisted I was correct, and it has now become apparent that I was not. For instance I vividly recall insisting to my father as a teen that rutabagas were the hardest vegetable, as I struggled to get a knife through it. My father responded "oh, are you sure they are...or do you think carrots are harder, yet just easier to cut since they're smaller". I insisted I was sure I was correct...however every time I slice up a rutabaga I relent that its flesh is indeed more rubbery than that of a carrot. Such measurable evidence of a capacity to believe oneself to be right, yet subsequently coming to accept that one was indeed mistaken, is undeniable, and happily accepted by the LIE; for being correct is more important than being "right". Such humility has been added to my personality model, in that I now listen more, and consider others' views as I've matured. Confidence, boldness, and acting in haste is never an adequate substitute for correctness and accuracy.
    Last edited by ENJoymENT; 09-04-2014 at 11:39 PM. Reason: Grammar

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    ILIs come with their own bag of tricks being introverted, very different from their mirrors.

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