Niffweed and I had a debate about this, fueled by a comment on his Wiki user list. It's sort of long, but I don't want to paraphrase and misrepresent anything.
What are other people's thoughts on this?
Ritella: also, i wanted to ask you about something you wrote on the Wiki
Niffweed17: what is your question?
Ritella: discojoe as dominant is essentially wrong. discojoe has repeatedly demonstrated his aptitude for logical analysis in various forms of argumentation and ultimately his behavior suggests nothing to do with DS other than his claims of ignorance.
Ritella: can you explain the last clause please?
Niffweed17: what do you mean
Niffweed17: how his behavior is not Te seeking?
Ritella: the part where you say "behavior suggests nothing to do with DS other than his claims of ignorance."
Ritella: it sounds like you are saying that ignorance implies Te DS
Niffweed17: one of the things is that he says all the fucking time that
Niffweed17: yesterday i was having a conversation with minde
Niffweed17: and in the course of the conversation, quite naturally
Niffweed17: she started asking me a series of questions about her computer
Niffweed17: sort of as an informational mine
Niffweed17: like it's not as though Fi people are ignorant necessarily
Niffweed17: particularly in whatever fields of specialization
Niffweed17: but i do think they often lack confidence in their ability to sort of deal with the aspects of
Niffweed17: dealing with or collecting practical information
Ritella: i think that Te DS are more likely to be uniformed on lots of things
Ritella: and blatantly ignorant about things that are not in their immediate area
Niffweed17: is your question about Te DS or about discojoe in particular?
Ritella: no, it was about your phrasing
Ritella: i don't particularly like the way it's phrased
Ritella: because i think it's subject to misinterpretations
Niffweed17: dude, deal with it
Ritella: dude, i am dealing with it
Niffweed17: i said that discojoe does not exhibit characteristics of Te DS
Niffweed17: which i don't think he does
Niffweed17: how exactly are you criticizing that phrasing?
Ritella: i'm merely telling you that i think the write up seems to imply other things with which you might not necc agree
Ritella: it sounds like you are saying that blatant ignorance is a sign of Te DS
Niffweed17: well that is not what i am saying but
Niffweed17: to the extent that such a statement contains an element of truth to it
Ritella: i understand
Niffweed17: this is not an area that can be exactly avoided
Niffweed17: i am not going to go out of my way, for example to say that
Ritella: look, imo it can be phrased differently to avoid misconceptions
Ritella: i think these things are important
Ritella: when dealing with socionics
Ritella: because stereotyping is huge
Niffweed17: "discojoe is not Te DS because he does not exhibit the type of information seeking behavior but please dont misinterpret my words please please please im not trying to denigrate Fi i swear"
Niffweed17: i'm not going to do that
Ritella: and has very disastrous potential
Ritella: forget it
Niffweed17: and frankly i'm a bit pissed off that you would bring it up
Ritella: you are taking it to an extreme
Niffweed17: you are too
Ritella: one more thing
Niffweed17: because it seems like you're intentionally trying to misinterpret me where i think that you clearly can understand where i'm coming from
Niffweed17: like my wording should be
Niffweed17: totally, perfectly clear
Niffweed17: so as to
Ritella: " discojoe as Fi dominant is essentially wrong. discojoe has repeatedly demonstrated his aptitude for logical analysis in various forms of argumentation"
Niffweed17: avoid any possible ambiguity that
Niffweed17: any moron might come up with
Niffweed17: like, no.
Ritella: no no . i am not being nitpicky on purpose. i am not "out to get you"
Ritella: it just sent off an alarm bell
Niffweed17: that's too bad.
Niffweed17: i am not seeking to offend anyone but
Ritella: look, i don't question your motives
Ritella: i don't care whether you offend people
Niffweed17: i am not going to completely change the nature of my analyses to suit your conceptions
Niffweed17: i stand by what is written there
Niffweed17: as essentially true, from my perspective
Ritella: i do care about the stereotyping that goes on in the forum and i think that when people are ambiguous it's their responsibility to clarify things to the best they can
Niffweed17: both with regards to what it says about discojoe and about the ways in which he does not exhibit Te DS behavior.
Niffweed17: this is not ambiguous.
Niffweed17: this is bordering on stereotyping, maybe, but this is not ambiguous.
Niffweed17: from the writing it should be very clear what i think about discojoe and why.
Niffweed17: that's it.
Niffweed17: do you disagree with that?
Ritella: the Te DS clause was ambiguous in terms of the phrasing. like i wasn't sure exactly what you were saying
Ritella: my main "stereotyping" concern is really the other comment
Niffweed17: i disagree with that
Ritella: when you say that he's repeatedly demonstrated his aptitude for logical reasoning
Niffweed17: a reader that understands discojoe should be able to follow me
Niffweed17: is the idea i guess
Ritella: it sounds like you are saying that this is not expected from an Fi dominant
Niffweed17: it isn't.
Ritella: that i think is a stereotype
Ritella: and a very bad one
Niffweed17: of course its a stereotype
Ritella: because it's wrong
Niffweed17: IM is all stereotype ultimately
Ritella: well it's not correct
Ritella: aptitude in logical reasoning is not T related
Niffweed17: i disagree.
Ritella: i would say the propensity to engage in logical reasoning
Ritella: or related discussions is
Niffweed17: ok, whatever
Niffweed17: i view that as essentially the same
Ritella: also, T related is the amount of confidence people have in it
Niffweed17: on a general level however
Niffweed17: i don't think this is an attribute that you can look at and say
Niffweed17: there is no difference between ethical and logical types in aptitude in logical reasoning.
Niffweed17: like, no.
Ritella: and whether they find intellectual banter personally offensive (F types tend to feel more hurt, whereas T types realize it's just debate)
Ritella: wait, so you DO think there is a difference between ethical and logical types in logical reasoning aptitude?
Niffweed17: if you want to call it "propensity to engage in logical reasoning"
Niffweed17: that's perhaps more correct
Ritella: well look
Niffweed17: but i still view it as essentially the same
Ritella: aptitude is markedly different from inclination and confidence in
Niffweed17: if you took a normal distribution of all people
Ritella: if you studied IQ scores amongst the 16 types, I doubt they'd be more highly distributed amongst T types
Niffweed17: do you think that aptitude in logical reasoning would be uniform among logical/ethical types?
Niffweed17: IQ is not aptitude in logical reasoning
Niffweed17: if you want to play this game, you'll play by the rules
Ritella: well how would you like to define it?
Ritella: pick a metric
Niffweed17: good question
Ritella: my metric was arbitrary
Ritella: and not perfect
Ritella: but it is A metric
Ritella: and it's not bad
Niffweed17: ok, fine
Niffweed17: fair enough i guess
Niffweed17: so looking at IQ tests
Niffweed17: do you think they'd be uniform among all types?
Ritella: yes, that would be my hypothesis
Niffweed17: i would not agree with that
Ritella: i know for a fact that my highest coring friends in those tests are all F types
Niffweed17: that is subjective and a limited sample
Ritella: I KNOW THAT
Niffweed17: and it doesn't standardize the tests
Ritella: i am not using it to prove my point
Niffweed17: then why bring it up?
Ritella: i am merely stating an observation
Niffweed17: and i am stating constraints on your observation
Ritella: i am well aware of constraints on my observation
Ritella: i assumed you would be too
Ritella: i highly doubt either one of us are going to have access to an ideal sampling of IQ scores (or some other test) complete with accurate socionics typing
Niffweed17: agreed, that is not likely.
Niffweed17: it doesn't for a second support your argument or change my interpretation of your hypothesis
Niffweed17: nor should it necessarily do the same for you
Niffweed17: but just so that we're on the same page here.
Ritella: I merely mentioned my observation to indicate that it serves as a possible counterexample to the view that high IQ scores ----> T type
Niffweed17: not one that remotely convinces me
Niffweed17: i mean i dont think that
Ritella: no, rather
Ritella: it IS a counterexample
Ritella: the distribution
Niffweed17: all T types are smarter than F types or something like that
Ritella: that is something that can't be shown
Ritella: with our resources
Niffweed17: well you could do experiments on it
Ritella: ok, well at least you're not that far off