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Thread: SLI-LSE mirror relations and social niceties (ISTp-ESTj)

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    Twist-Tie Spider iAnnAu's Avatar
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    Default SLI-LSE mirror relations and social niceties (ISTp-ESTj)

    An issue has arisen between my LSE SO and I.
    I have a hard time responding to social niceties like "How are you doing?" and "Have a nice day!" when they are said by a person I don't know and am in fact unlikely to interact with again. I think I've explained this elsewhere on the forum; I think of such things as "making nonthreatening noises" rather than an actual exchange of information or intent, and I don't feel obliged to respond in kind.
    The problem is, the LSE dislikes this. He has several times offhandedly mentioned how different it is to him that I don't say "Fine" and "You, too" automatically. He was raised to always be polite and pleasant to people who are making the same effort. And while he's never said that I should be more this way ... he's brought it up at least six times now. Once or twice, OK - just an observation. Over and over again - oh shit, this really bothers him!
    What he doesn't seem to understand is that I dislike insincerity. While I no longer bother to actually feel a measure of disapproval when others exhibit this behavior, I can't actually go all the way to the point of inspiring the behavior in myself except as an afterthought.

    Someone says "Having an OK day?" while they swipe my groceries across the reader.
    My brain goes "OK - so she's not meeting your eyes, you're likely to be out of her line and thus her life within two to five minutes, and you know she's not actually asking for a rundown of the ups and downs of this period of sunlight with a conclusion as to your satisfaction with its balance. The appropriate response in your record banks to this query is 'Fine, thanks. And you?'"
    ... and even though all of that happens essentially with no lapse in measurable time, I know my response will be contrived, not sincere. And if it's contrived, then why bother?
    We both live in a civilized society, and in any case, if I meant to do her harm, neither her remark nor some preprogrammed response by me would dissuade that intent, so what's the point of making such "nonthreatening noises"? Hell, I usually pay with my debit card, and my total shows up on the screen of the card reader, so the brief time we spend together requires no spoken transaction whatsoever. Why complicate that?

    I have tried to explain why I actually dislike being expected to respond to such frivolous social proddings every time he brings it up, and instead of understanding me, every time he cuts off my explanation earlier. I get the message: he thinks I'm rude. But I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to avoid being insincere!!!
    I doubt it would even bother me except that he's one of the few people whose respect matters. And also, I'm 33 years old. I doubt at this age I'm going to have much success programming myself past this block. Either he's got to accept me as I am, or this is going to be a sticking point between us.

    Does this have more to do with E versus I and/or J versus P, or more to do with upbringing, or maybe something about being LSE and having been brought up a certain way? I really wish he'd just understand me ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    Topaz's Avatar
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    Hi iAnnAu,
    Your post is interesting. It gives me something to think about. Since my own wiring and possibly upbringing is so different I would not have come to the same conclusion as you. You are certainly within your rights to choose how you respond to people. However, I have to be honest with you, the other person will form opinions about you based on the outward expressions of your logic and that includes your SO. These social niceties although seemingly useless actually do serve a function in society. They are a form of shorthand for what used to be more lengthy rituals. In olden times people used to have to rely much more on each other and so showing personal interest was very important. In todays societies we are less connected, less involved and much more independent but as a society in whole we still need each other, esp. in times of crisis when the system breaks down (ie earthquakes, floods, fires etc.).

    I think this acknowledging others, even in small ways, give us reassurance that we are indeed part of a whole and not just isolated individuals with no one or nothing to fall back on. That if things got really bad or you needed help then even a stranger would help you.

    Personally, if whenever my attempts at being friendly with people are blown off my feelings toward them become negative. I would not personally harm them but I'd think twice about doing something nice for them or helping them. After all, if they cant bring themselves to say hello or smile or even nod to me why should I help them with their packages or give advice on how to get a deal on something or help them find their way? It would seem like an intrusion. It feels like they have put up and invisible barrier that cuts them off from me.
    On the other hand when someone is friendly to me, I am friendly to them and I am more willing to do them a good turn if it is within my power to do so, even at the slightest suggestion. I have benefited from the kindness of strangers too many times to say its not necessary.
    Im not saying these things to criticize you on how you think but to help you see the other side of the coin. If your SO is actually SLE he may subconsciously know the importance of even though its not his strong area. He feels that weakness keenly perhaps and it just doesn't bother you. I suppose I would have similar feelings of frustration if I was with my mirror type and they did not care about at all.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    strrrng's Avatar
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    Ann, I won't chastise your position, but I will say that the application of it is kind of pointless. If you want to rationalize why it's right/wrong, that's fine; but you'll encounter contradictions in practice. And plus, it can be fun to play off of the mundane. When I'm in some public place, it's typically boring as hell, but I can smile at people who walk by in different ways, and gauge their reactions, and derive entertainment from it. To each his own, I suppose.

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    I'm exactly the opposite in some ways - I don't think it's as insincere as you seem to, I guess. Sure when I saw: 'hey, how's it going,' I don't necessarily have a vested interest in you and when you walk away, I might not think about you again, but for the moment, when we're interacting, you're there and you're human and I'm taking an interest.

    I don't know why an interest has to be everlasting or permanent to be considered genuine. It's genuine as I say it, isn't that enough?

    When I get asked things like that, I have a tendency to take them literally as being interested in me even for a few seconds and I'll say something like 'Awful, I want to kill myself' or 'I've having the worse day ever, but I think a coffee will solve all that' - ok, you're not going to get any huge insight into who I am as a person, but we're both humans and we're both thrust into a situation where we're interacting, so why not make it the most of it? But sometimes the other person looks really surprised when I give them an answer that's more than 'Fine, and you?' and I have this sudden horrible feeling that they were being insincere and just saying it because it's an automatic response for them, but I won't say anything, I'll feel slightly embarrassed though.

    And I get hurt/hate responses from people that are sort of dismissive and civil, like, 'well, I'll only know you for ten minutes of my life, so why bother making an effort?' I'm a PERSON and that's enough reason as far as I'm concerned for them to make an effort.

    And I don't get the sincerity/insincerity dynamic. If I make someone smile or make their life one tiny fraction brighter, then that's pretty awesome as far as I'm concerned, and um, I might not want to suddenly become best friends for life with you, but I am sincerely wanting to make your day a little nicer/brighter? And I might not succeed...but that doesn't mean I'm insincere.
    ()
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    strrrng's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    When I get asked things like that, I have a tendency to take them literally as being interested in me even for a few seconds and I'll say something like 'Awful, I want to kill myself' or 'I've having the worse day ever, but I think a coffee will solve all that' - ok, you're not going to get any huge insight into who I am as a person, but we're both humans and we're both thrust into a situation where we're interacting, so why not make it the most of it? But sometimes the other person looks really surprised when I give them an answer that's more than 'Fine, and you?' and I have this sudden horrible feeling that they were being insincere and just saying it because it's an automatic response for them, but I won't say anything, I'll feel slightly embarrassed though.
    Basically most people are attached to appearances. They invest themselves in the facile creations of day-to-day experience, and don't expect anything more. Contrived emotion is real to them because its form is more believable (because you create it), whereas real emotion tends to fly over their heads because of how subtle it is, and how unaware they are to its existence. So, if you do give a genuine answer to any of their questions, they'll be taken aback, or even worse, react as if you had said nothing out of the ordinary. But then there are people who are detached from the day-to-day appearances, and only appreciate the internal substance of a person, and thus tend to recognize the real emotion when it is expressed. They are more likely to ignore petty banter (unless they want to have fun, like me), while maintaining an understanding of the internal essence over time. But, based on this, who is really detached?

    And ftr this is not type-related, but I'd like to watch people stumble over themselves attempting to tie it to Fe and Fi.

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    These social niceties although seemingly useless actually do serve a function in society. They are a form of shorthand for what used to be more lengthy rituals. In olden times people used to have to rely much more on each other and so showing personal interest was very important. In todays societies we are less connected, less involved and much more independent but as a society in whole we still need each other, esp. in times of crisis when the system breaks down (ie earthquakes, floods, fires etc.).
    Holy crap, Topaz. I PM'ed Anna and said almost the exact same thing. 0_0
    IEE

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    Holy crap, Topaz. I PM'ed Anna and said almost the exact same thing. 0_0
    thats cause great minds think alike.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    I hate that kind of shit but I know it eventually leads to people having warm feelings toward and/or fucking me, so I just roll with it.

    The correct response to "how are you?" is "fine." I don't care if your house just exploded, say "fine." Took me a long time to stop taking the question literally.
    ILE - Ti.

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    Quote Originally Posted by diljs View Post
    I hate that kind of shit but I know it eventually leads to people having warm feelings toward and/or fucking me, so I just roll with it.

    The correct response to "how are you?" is "fine." I don't care if your house just exploded, say "fine." Took me a long time to stop taking the question literally.
    It doesn't have to be "fine" all the time, but if its going to be something else be prepared for some small talk. If you hate small talk then, yeah, stick to "fine".
    Small talk is not always bad, by the way. Its a way of gradually getting to know people. The world is smaller than we think. We may bump in to the same person several times esp. if they work in some sort of public function.
    One time I was taking a flight and I started having small talk with the person checking me in at the airport. I asked, jokingly, if there were some extra seats in first class because I knew the rest of the cabin was overbooked. The check in guy said 'yeah, here, Im going to put you in first class' . I couldn't believe it. Anyway, a year later Im flying the same airline and guess who I ran in to? YEP. He remembered me too! We chatted and laughed a bit and he bumped me into first class again!!! ( hmmmm...now that Im writing this Im wondering if he was coming on to me and I just didn't get it, yikes ??? Oh well. The point is..... I forget .... nevermind.

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Twist-Tie Spider iAnnAu's Avatar
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    You guys have given me some food for thought, but for the most part I had already come to recognize the "nicety" part of "social niceties" - like I said, that's why I call it "nonthreatening noises." It's not about exchanging information, it's about establishing an environment.
    The thing is, I just feel it's not necessary. Sure, people can do it if they want. But why is it automatically expected? If anything, I feel like I'm leaving those of you who want the small talk to it - so leave me to my preference of none. Although there's no reliable way to establish who has which preference among strangers, it could be as simple as noticing the other person didn't respond AND NOT TAKING IT THE WRONG WAY.
    I'm absolutely certain that many people aren't being strictly insincere when they ask "how are you?" - my point is that *I* feel insincere in my response. Why should I be expected to leave my comfort zone when the underlying intent of small talk is supposed to be the opposite?
    FTR, when acquaintances and coworkers do this, I do say "morning" or "fine" - for some reason knowing/having repeated interactions with the person softens the feelings of contrivance and allows me to at least do that much without inwardly squirming. Although I'm sure at least some of them notice I never say things first (or "and how are you") ...
    And lastly, I don't mean to criticize, but I do not think that small talk contributes to feelings of connection so as to foster support in times of crisis. Actually knowing a person will (such as in the case of a fight, or a drug intervention), or actually recognizing an immediate large-scale need will (such as in the case of an earthquake, hurricane, the events of 9/11, etc). But you're either going to help your friend, or you're going to help your fellow human, or you're going to distance yourself completely. Because the person was blithely and noncommitally chatty when you paid for your groceries in her checkout lane is not going to make a difference.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    There is good in formality sometimes. However, I don't agree that people should do things that are uncomfortable or don't feel right "just because." In this case though, I would say that not feeling comfortable about responding to a question of "how are you?" to a stranger can mean one of at least two things: you feel that the stranger doesn't really care about the answer or you just don't feel the need to be answering those types of questions. Although you might say this only happens to strangers, I have a feeling that it also might be happening with friends and family when they ask you similar questions. The reason I say this is because I've known ISTps who do this, saying that they don't want to sound like they are complaining by telling people how they really feel, which to them there is always something to be complaining about.

    Personally I think the best way to handle it is to be honest, but never "not say anything" or just repeat a formal response because to me that's just plain rude if the person is genuinely interested. Regardless if I feel bad, when a stranger genuinely asks me "how's it going?" even though they don't know it's a bad day for me, at that moment I do feel good for having been asked that so I have no problem in replying "good, and you?" It doesn't mean I have to go into any details but it's just a way of recognizing that we're both in the same location and it opens up further communication too. You can also put humor to it as well. When an acquaintance asks me "how's X thing going?" I might say: "Oh man, now why'd you have to ask me about that? It's going X,X,X..." And if that's not the amount of info they wanted to hear, then that's too bad, they asked for it . Next time they might not even ask you that question again because they don't want to get a big response, or they might be more interested in knowing more about you which is a good thing?

    When you receive an e-mail for example, wouldn't you think it's rude to have someone just ask what they want without adding any sort of "hello" at the beginning or "thanks" at the end? You could say that's formality too, and that person might not really mean it, but does it really matter? At any moment a person might not mean something they say, but it's good to respond to it anyway IF you know that even though at that specific moment you don't "feel" like doing it, it doesn't mean that deep down you don't feel it. I think this is the gist of Fe and Fi working together.

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Not really got any advice for you, I can understand were you are coming from as if someone asks me how i'm doing or how my day is going at the checkout, I sometimes think to myself-well it's none of your business. Maybe one day i'll tell them all my problems, whatever they happen to be at that time just to see how they react lol. Well they did ask..

    But at end of day they are only doing their job. In saying that though I had one asking me about a magazine I had picked up in my shopping and if I read it a lot, which started to make me think they were lonely and looking for a friend.

    With them being like this, with the general pleasantries, has got to be better than the opposite of one who is being rude. Which a shop I've used sometimes the guy is quite rude. End of day you can't win. As a solution..there are some supermarkets here were you scan your grocery through yourself and then insert your card to pay. It's only for baskets though. Maybe they'll catch on..and do people out of a job!

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    This is something deep. Very, very deep. Rooted in the primitive instincts every human being possess.

    Professional psychologists - last I heard - use a technique involving recognizing figures in ink stains. The stains possess no real shape because they are random, but the purpose of the test is to allow the patient to express his/her repressed feelings and ideas.

    I believe that the reason why there are so many societal expectations about politeness and protocols is that most people have repressed fears and they ease them through such rituals. Their negative and repressed feelings will erupt if they can't get an explicit confirmation; this is why SLIs -being mostly inexpressive- have so bad reputation among highly social individuals.
    [] | NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)

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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    This is something deep. Very, very deep. Rooted in the primitive instincts every human being possess.

    Professional psychologists - last I heard - use a technique involving recognizing figures in ink stains. The stains possess no real shape because they are random, but the purpose of the test is to allow the patient to express his/her repressed feelings and ideas.

    I believe that the reason why there are so many societal expectations about politeness and protocols is that most people have repressed fears and they ease them through such rituals. Their negative and repressed feelings will erupt if they can't get an explicit confirmation; this is why SLIs -being mostly inexpressive- have so bad reputation among highly social individuals.
    I agree with this.

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    I agree that people shouldn't have to talk or say "hi" if they don't want to. However, we do a lot of stuff we don't want to in order to live in a society and not on an island off somewhere. No one likes taxes, or stop lights, etc, but you pay them and stop because you know that as a whole, it works better that way. Greeting a check out clerk means you are not ruining their day. You never know...maybe that check out clerk has had a horrible day and you not answering their question of "how's your day going?" might make them go home and cry. That would be sad. Isn't it easier to just say "fine and you?" Being polite means avoiding hurting people's feelings, because it sucks to be rejected by strangers, right?

    It's not about being obligated to do it, but it's about choosing to do it because you know it is the kind thing to do, even if you'd rather be quiet. Yes, it is a choice and there is no law that says you need to be polite. But the more you are polite and kind to others, the more they will be to you, and the better day everyone will have.

    I think a lot of this could even be shyness...I used to be very shy and didn't like to say anything and would sometimes stare at my shoes instead -- and I got tons of negative attention for doing that. I think you'll find that a simple quiet "thanks and you?" gets you noticed a lot less and gives you a lot less crap to deal with than if you refuse to say anything. If you want to be left alone, a simple quiet polite response works better.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    An issue has arisen between my LSE SO and I.
    I have a hard time responding to social niceties like "How are you doing?" and "Have a nice day!" when they are said by a person I don't know and am in fact unlikely to interact with again. I think I've explained this elsewhere on the forum; I think of such things as "making nonthreatening noises" rather than an actual exchange of information or intent, and I don't feel obliged to respond in kind.
    The problem is, the LSE dislikes this. He has several times offhandedly mentioned how different it is to him that I don't say "Fine" and "You, too" automatically. He was raised to always be polite and pleasant to people who are making the same effort. And while he's never said that I should be more this way ... he's brought it up at least six times now. Once or twice, OK - just an observation. Over and over again - oh shit, this really bothers him!
    What he doesn't seem to understand is that I dislike insincerity. While I no longer bother to actually feel a measure of disapproval when others exhibit this behavior, I can't actually go all the way to the point of inspiring the behavior in myself except as an afterthought.

    Someone says "Having an OK day?" while they swipe my groceries across the reader.
    My brain goes "OK - so she's not meeting your eyes, you're likely to be out of her line and thus her life within two to five minutes, and you know she's not actually asking for a rundown of the ups and downs of this period of sunlight with a conclusion as to your satisfaction with its balance. The appropriate response in your record banks to this query is 'Fine, thanks. And you?'"
    ... and even though all of that happens essentially with no lapse in measurable time, I know my response will be contrived, not sincere. And if it's contrived, then why bother?
    We both live in a civilized society, and in any case, if I meant to do her harm, neither her remark nor some preprogrammed response by me would dissuade that intent, so what's the point of making such "nonthreatening noises"? Hell, I usually pay with my debit card, and my total shows up on the screen of the card reader, so the brief time we spend together requires no spoken transaction whatsoever. Why complicate that?

    I have tried to explain why I actually dislike being expected to respond to such frivolous social proddings every time he brings it up, and instead of understanding me, every time he cuts off my explanation earlier. I get the message: he thinks I'm rude. But I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to avoid being insincere!!!
    I doubt it would even bother me except that he's one of the few people whose respect matters. And also, I'm 33 years old. I doubt at this age I'm going to have much success programming myself past this block. Either he's got to accept me as I am, or this is going to be a sticking point between us.

    Does this have more to do with E versus I and/or J versus P, or more to do with upbringing, or maybe something about being LSE and having been brought up a certain way? I really wish he'd just understand me ...
    i have a few similar thoughts sometimes
    ENTP:wink:ALPHA

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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    An issue has arisen between my LSE SO and I.
    I have a hard time responding to social niceties like "How are you doing?" and "Have a nice day!" when they are said by a person I don't know and am in fact unlikely to interact with again. ...

    Imho, not nature but nurture. Probably also very much dependent on culture. Fwiw, I have had a lot of interaction with Americans, and one of the 'complaints' of many Dutch people who have interacted with Americans, is that to us, they too easlity say such things as "How are you doing?" and "Have a nice day!", when it is not really meant. Typically, when an unexperienced Dutch person is asked "How are you?" by an American the first time, they don't get it's just a greeting, not a question. So we typically answer sincerely with "Not very well actually, my mil passed away last week, my wife got hospitalized with a sore toe.... etc.etc". This, in return, often annoys Americans, of course, who do not understand why the Dutch go into so much detail about their personal lives.

    What pisses me off the most, is at the McDrive (in the Netherlands), with their 'Good Evening, welcome at McDonalds, can I take your order please?" in a tone of voice that reveals it's just a memorized line of text, and not a sincere personal greeting.

    So a lot of it is just differences in learned behaviors, not type inclinations.

    Now before anyone takes offence: this post is not meant to bash Americans
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    I've been waiting for you Satan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    An issue has arisen between my LSE SO and I.
    I have a hard time responding to social niceties like "How are you doing?" and "Have a nice day!" when they are said by a person I don't know and am in fact unlikely to interact with again. I think I've explained this elsewhere on the forum; I think of such things as "making nonthreatening noises" rather than an actual exchange of information or intent, and I don't feel obliged to respond in kind.
    Hey I'm here. .. You're here ... Let's just show that we're okay with each other ..

    The problem is, the LSE dislikes this. He has several times offhandedly mentioned how different it is to him that I don't say "Fine" and "You, too" automatically. He was raised to always be polite and pleasant to people who are making the same effort. And while he's never said that I should be more this way ... he's brought it up at least six times now. Once or twice, OK - just an observation. Over and over again - oh shit, this really bothers him!
    FWIW, I don't think I'm ESTj, but I used to do that kind of thing a bit soemtimes too. I was "kind" of raised up to be polite and pleasant, but my manners can slip at times.

    What he doesn't seem to understand is that I dislike insincerity. While I no longer bother to actually feel a measure of disapproval when others exhibit this behavior, I can't actually go all the way to the point of inspiring the behavior in myself except as an afterthought.
    So it helps if he points it out at the time.

    Someone says "Having an OK day?" while they swipe my groceries across the reader.
    My brain goes "OK - so she's not meeting your eyes, you're likely to be out of her line and thus her life within two to five minutes, and you know she's not actually asking for a rundown of the ups and downs of this period of sunlight with a conclusion as to your satisfaction with its balance. The appropriate response in your record banks to this query is 'Fine, thanks. And you?'"
    Oh, I tend to ignore people unless they make eye contact, or otherwise seem like they're there. If they really want to know they'll ask again.

    ... and even though all of that happens essentially with no lapse in measurable time, I know my response will be contrived, not sincere. And if it's contrived, then why bother?
    I've been thinking about this recently. So many people ask me how I'm doing .. how I am .. how's my day been .. up to much etc .. blah blah ..

    And I don't know them that well ..

    I'm actually pretty closed with these kinds of things. I don't really like people trying to intrude upon my life.

    Recently I've been pretty busy, and stressed out. And I "changed" my response. . to say "Not so great" .. or "Not so good", and twice umm ,.. yesterday .. I got *positive* responses from such. More so than usual.

    One girl, at the end of our interaction gave me a nice warm smile. The other one was trying to relate more.

    We both live in a civilized society, and in any case, if I meant to do her harm, neither her remark nor some preprogrammed response by me would dissuade that intent, so what's the point of making such "nonthreatening noises"? Hell, I usually pay with my debit card, and my total shows up on the screen of the card reader, so the brief time we spend together requires no spoken transaction whatsoever. Why complicate that?
    Sometimes I do no speaking .. some people get pretty nervous when I do that though.

    I have tried to explain why I actually dislike being expected to respond to such frivolous social proddings every time he brings it up, and instead of understanding me, every time he cuts off my explanation earlier. I get the message: he thinks I'm rude. But I'm not trying to be rude, I'm trying to avoid being insincere!!!
    I remember having issues with this when I was younger, with some people not liking my style of constant social prodding..

    Sometimes it's like I just poke people every now and then .. I like a response every time. .

    Why try to avoid?

    I doubt it would even bother me except that he's one of the few people whose respect matters. And also, I'm 33 years old. I doubt at this age I'm going to have much success programming myself past this block. Either he's got to accept me as I am, or this is going to be a sticking point between us.
    To be honest, there were two groups of people I used to have this problem with. One group tended to suddenly leave situations without known reason or cause. The other would just be kind of grumpy.

    The first could usually change. But would sometimes try to explain how they're like that with other people. The second just wanted to be left alone for the most part. So I'd leave them alone. Including if they wanted something from me.

    Does this have more to do with E versus I and/or J versus P, or more to do with upbringing, or maybe something about being LSE and having been brought up a certain way? I really wish he'd just understand me ...
    Why do you think he doesn't understand you. You don't seem to be making things much better for him.

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    update: after reading the responses here and in PMs and having a few more days to have more such interactions ...
    1. I think I was blowing the SO's reaction a little out of proportion. I just realized that it was about the sixth time he'd brought it up, so I wondered if I was missing some signal he was trying to send. But if he's gonna keep concluding with "forget about it" - maybe I should.
    2. I am never intentionally rude - I will often smile briefly while looking straight at them, so if they're paying attention, they should see that I just don't feel like speaking. If such a pale response causes someone to go home and cry, then they've got much bigger problems than I could possibly blame myself for contributing to.
    3. The circumstances surrounding the small talk have a lot to do with how I feel about responding. For instance, I went to the bank yesterday, and I needed help with three different things. I was obviously going to be talking to the teller for ten to fifteen minutes, maybe more. For whatever reason, I had no trouble giving him a "good morning" at the beginning and a "thanks, you too" at the end after he said "have a nice day."
    4. Sometimes circumstances trump small talk even in a short-term interaction. Also yesterday, I went to Smoothie King, and the SO and I had to wait quite a long time before the attendant finished our order. She came to the window after about five minutes' absence and apologized, fretting that she was all alone and things were pretty busy. My spontaneous response to this was to smile, look at her, and tell her "I've been there before, too. Just do one thing at a time and you'll get through this. Anybody who complains, let 'em know you're doing your best." Jon handled the goodbyes, where he thanked her and wished her luck, so I left it at that. Again, for whatever reason, I was able to extend her that expressed support with no inner contradictions.
    5. I agree that Americans are trained to parrot certain greeting/closing phrases, especially in service-type jobs. That's probably part of my problem in trying to respond. One thing I absolutely despise is suggestive selling - the "would you like fries with that" kind of bullshit. What a waste of air. If I can actually tell that someone is greeting me or thanking me according to a script, it makes me want to give a nonstandard response to shake them up, but since I rarely enjoy the consequences of making such waves I usually go with my standard no response at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Bukowski
    We're all going to die, all of us, what a circus! That alone should make us love each other but it doesn't. We are terrorized and flattened by trivialities, we are eaten up by nothing.
    SLI

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    My problems are specific and complex, and more importantly *my* problems so when somebody asks 'how are you?' it's just a common social greeting thing to me, so I just say 'Fine.' If it's clear I'm not fine and I can't hide my sadness, I'd probably avoid seeing people altogether.

    The stains possess no real shape because they are random, but the purpose of the test is to allow the patient to express his/her repressed feelings and ideas.
    I think you're taking this a bit too far. That clearly doesn't work either by the way. If you don't want to share something with somebody you won't, no matter how many ink blots you see. Your own instincts usually guide you to how much you can trust a person with information. A therapist naturally, is there for you to open up more stuff than you would tell anybody else but there's still roadblocks.

    I don't know. Sometimes I've shared personal crap with strangers. It kind of really surprised them. But I don't think it's THAT repressed. I'd rather act primal than fake anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I think you're taking this a bit too far. That clearly doesn't work either by the way. If you don't want to share something with somebody you won't, no matter how many ink blots you see. Your own instincts usually guide you to how much you can trust a person with information. A therapist naturally, is there for you to open up more stuff than you would tell anybody else but there's still roadblocks.
    This isn't always true. Sometimes we communicate things, whether we want to or not.

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    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    Most of the time everyone keeps things to themselves, but every once in awhile I have a day that I must look especially sympathetic, because people will just start telling me things. On one such day, one person I had never met before told me all about a friend of his who suddenly committed suicide, and then later a lady told me all about her husband's failing health and how they were terribly struggling with finances. And I've had people I barely knew grab me by the arm out of nowhere to confess something to me in whispered tones. I don't know why that sometimes happens. But it will be several people, all in one day when it does.
    This is interesting. Despite my ideological lack of empathy with so many things, I typically will listen attentively to someone who simply starts telling me something personal - whether I know them or not. Like, I kind of figure that it's important to them and respect that they had the balls to put themselves out there like that. I also think I identify with them on some level, as if I wish I could be that open about personal things and have someone care. So, through my projection lol, I will listen to them and give advice and genuinely hope for them to feel better. It feels a lot better than some contrived, egocentric setting where I have to deal with someone's deluded rants. I guess I sort of empathize with the down-trodden. Call me a 4 lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    My problems are specific and complex, and more importantly *my* problems so when somebody asks 'how are you?' it's just a common social greeting thing to me, so I just say 'Fine.' If it's clear I'm not fine and I can't hide my sadness, I'd probably avoid seeing people altogether.



    I think you're taking this a bit too far. That clearly doesn't work either by the way. If you don't want to share something with somebody you won't, no matter how many ink blots you see. Your own instincts usually guide you to how much you can trust a person with information. A therapist naturally, is there for you to open up more stuff than you would tell anybody else but there's still roadblocks.

    I don't know. Sometimes I've shared personal crap with strangers. It kind of really surprised them. But I don't think it's THAT repressed. I'd rather act primal than fake anyway.
    B&D I cant imagine anything you would supress. I think out of all the people on this forum you have revealed the most. Whether we asked for it or not . Is this some kind of therapy for you?

    Topaz
    The artifact which is the source of my power will not be kept on the Mountain of Despair beyond the River of Fire guarded by the Dragons of Eternity. It will be in my safe-deposit box. The same applies to the object which is my one weakness.

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    Is this some kind of therapy for you?
    Maybe. But I don't view it as such lol.

    And I really have 'revealed the most' huh? Well I'm glad.

    I think I'm better with the stuff that can be taken offensively. Before I would do personal shit just to see how people would respond, like the opposite of the social politeness. I would purposefully tell inside jokes in front of people and watch them go 'Huh?' and be amused that I confused them. But then I kinda realized how teenagery and destructive that was, so I grew out of it.

    If you think I'm bad now you should have met me when I was 14. I was a total spaz. =D

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    He doesn't want to understand you. He wants you to do what he thinks is right and correct. Please read my signature.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    He doesn't want to understand you. He wants you to do what he thinks is right and correct. Please read my signature.
    Who are you talking to, Maritsa? IAnnAu hasn't visited this forum for over five years!
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    Who are you talking to, Maritsa? IAnnAu hasn't visited this forum for over five years!
    I put my response out for others to see

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I put my response out for others to see
    Sure...
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    iAnnAu

    I don't think that mirror relations can form very strong partnerships, which goes against recognized Socionics theory. Most mature types can find a way to get along on a casual basis; however, as partners, these two will normally differ greatly on priorities and objectives, and ways of achieving objectives. The reasons for most partnerships are similar goals, priorities and or visions/directions. The only way I can see a mirror partnership succeeding is under a manager who is able to divide the labour and mediate. And, ISTps can be very reactionary while ESTjs can be in-your-face aggressive so I can foresee much head-butting with this pairing.

    a.k.a. I/O
    Last edited by Rebelondeck; 03-20-2016 at 06:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iAnnAu View Post
    update: after reading the responses here and in PMs and having a few more days to have more such interactions ...
    1. I think I was blowing the SO's reaction a little out of proportion. I just realized that it was about the sixth time he'd brought it up, so I wondered if I was missing some signal he was trying to send. But if he's gonna keep concluding with "forget about it" - maybe I should.
    2. I am never intentionally rude - I will often smile briefly while looking straight at them, so if they're paying attention, they should see that I just don't feel like speaking. If such a pale response causes someone to go home and cry, then they've got much bigger problems than I could possibly blame myself for contributing to.
    3. The circumstances surrounding the small talk have a lot to do with how I feel about responding. For instance, I went to the bank yesterday, and I needed help with three different things. I was obviously going to be talking to the teller for ten to fifteen minutes, maybe more. For whatever reason, I had no trouble giving him a "good morning" at the beginning and a "thanks, you too" at the end after he said "have a nice day."
    4. Sometimes circumstances trump small talk even in a short-term interaction. Also yesterday, I went to Smoothie King, and the SO and I had to wait quite a long time before the attendant finished our order. She came to the window after about five minutes' absence and apologized, fretting that she was all alone and things were pretty busy. My spontaneous response to this was to smile, look at her, and tell her "I've been there before, too. Just do one thing at a time and you'll get through this. Anybody who complains, let 'em know you're doing your best." Jon handled the goodbyes, where he thanked her and wished her luck, so I left it at that. Again, for whatever reason, I was able to extend her that expressed support with no inner contradictions.
    5. I agree that Americans are trained to parrot certain greeting/closing phrases, especially in service-type jobs. That's probably part of my problem in trying to respond. One thing I absolutely despise is suggestive selling - the "would you like fries with that" kind of bullshit. What a waste of air. If I can actually tell that someone is greeting me or thanking me according to a script, it makes me want to give a nonstandard response to shake them up, but since I rarely enjoy the consequences of making such waves I usually go with my standard no response at all.
    He's saying "forget about it" because he wants to keep the integrity of the relationship despite how your behavior is different.

    SLI are introvert and thus interactions and talking alone drain their energy but the way that your energy and that of EII is directed is different. I think it's a must to follow formalities and show polite manners because energy in that way doesn't drain me.

    As a relationship ethics I have certain morals regards to actions of others.

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