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Thread: Ideological Revolutions vs. Practicality: conflict of ideals and reality for Betas

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Ideological Revolutions vs. Practicality: conflict of ideals and reality for Betas

    As a Beta, I've always been heavily fascinated by utopian politics. The idea of fascism, hierarchical authoritarianism, hard-line communism etcetera have appealed far more to me than the kind of people who say "Hitler was a fucker and fascism is shit! Down with the fascist pigs!". They're simplistically-minded and boring to talk to. I'd find far more pleasure in spending an afternoon discussing politics with a fascist than with a hippy student who has no clear ideals except "BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT" and "EQUALITY AND FREEDOM FOR ALL". I'm by no means an advocate of a fascist regime; it's just that if it arose, I would like the change; the challenge and the new age that had dawned.

    The problem is, my natural inclinations are completely clouded over by what is practical to live by. None of these fanciful ideas are remotely practical; indeed, no Beta system can ever last. It is a temporary thing. Without something to fight; to bring down; to take on, there is no Beta revolution. Is it practical to continuously wage war on people and endlessly propagate conflict? Of course not. Gammas introduce the practicality. Then when they get too decadent something happens. Consider Babylon; far too licentious a city; eventually conquered by the Persians. And now it is seen as a sign of total decadence and corruption. Rastas consistently speak about it. I actually own a tune called "Assault on Babylon". So, obviously, Gamma will eventually be consumed, either by Delta (as in the US "frontier") or Beta (as in said example of Babylonian corruption).

    This can't just be me. Other Betas must be even just remotely tortured by this conflict between ideals and reality. It may not even be related to politics for many of you, but political thought certainly comes into it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    I'd find far more pleasure in spending an afternoon discussing politics with a fascist than with a hippy student who has no clear ideals except "BRING DOWN THE GOVERNMENT" and "EQUALITY AND FREEDOM FOR ALL".
    lol @ hitta


    yeah, I don't know *too* much about political theory, but my vision has always revolved around some form of control and structure, and having my ESFj mom cry about individual rights - or better yet, "human" rights - only makes me want to start the extermination campaign now. whatever. guess I'm narrow-minded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I really like reading the debates and ideas discussed when the US was first starting, and even those that I disagree with I can say were considering things at a level of thought much deeper than any of the candidates running for office now would ever dream of using.
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    I am of the learned opinion that stupid people should be encouraged to sign their own death warrants in order to keep the consciences of the intelligentsia clean (their hands will be clean of course because they cannot be expected to carry out physical work).

    By the scaffold, we will build our destinies (metaphorically speaking).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    I really like reading the debates and ideasdiscussed when the US was first starting, and even those that I disagree with I can say were considering things at a level of thought much deeper than any of the candidates running for office now would ever dream of using.
    At the time, the US - like most other countries - was essentially a plutocracy. In some ways it still is, but the political elite was more or less "fixed" and so could devote itself to discussing issues rather than getting votes from the electorate at all costs. Andrew Jackson started to disrupt that.

    Nowadays discussions at the level of those between Thomas Jefferson and Alexander Hamilton would just go above the head of most people. That is why you are at the level of "change" and "prepared to lead" etc.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Beta regimes have only been successfull in very unique circumstances. And they've all managed to frack up.
    I think Castro's Cuba is a good example of this phenomenon. But, as you say, it won't last.

    Quote Originally Posted by Diana View Post
    What is frustrating to me is that so many people are too stupid to vote, and still do. They have absolutely no clue about anything, don't care that they have no clue, don't want to learn more, don't think it matters whether they have any real understanding or not, because all they have to do is choose red or blue, easy peesy, bread and cheesy. When the power is in the hands of the people, and most of the people are uninformed, well, where does that lead you? It leads you wherever you want to drag those uninformed people's emotions is where it leads you.
    Exactly. This is where authoritarianism comes from. People are too flawed to govern themselves, so there must be a strict hierarchy and a rulebook to be followed.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    This can't just be me. Other Betas must be even just remotely tortured by this conflict between ideals and reality. It may not even be related to politics for many of you, but political thought certainly comes into it.
    In retrospect, I consider my an ideologue about the ages of 15-17. I considered myself a libertarian and almost religiously believe in the tenets of the freemarket. Almost to the extent of being an anarcho-capitalist. When I was 18 and entered university my first time around, I took an intro politics class and discovered the history of liberalism along with its evolution to 'reform liberalism' - in brief terms, that the freemarket rules, but the government plays a bigger role in equity and managing wealth with the introduction of social services.

    I consider it a truth that reality is several orders of magnitude more complex than even the most detailed model. I believe ideology falls prey to this. Political philosophers may be brilliant people crafting ingenious and internally consistant ideas, but they never account for the inherent chaos of life.

    The logical progression that I see is from ideology towards reformation. You set your tenets and values of how your state should run, but soon realize that adjustments both major and minor are required on an ongoing basis. When a state starts to reform, you separate yourself from armed conflict, and instead have your battle in the courts. You go through constitional reform. All these sorts of soft changes that lends itself to practical application, towards an end of a 'mature' state.

    I think the US is an interesting case as they took some of the best enlightenment thinkers and ideas and crafted their ideal state (ideology). What I also propose is that, in general, they are still stuck in the ideology phase and are having trouble coming to grips with their own reformation. A great number of Americans, for example, see the value of socialized medicine. An equal amount (or even greater) still do not, and that's a function of defaulting to the initial American ideology. The political nature of the US is very black and white; even their system, if I'm not mistaken, precludes the existance of a coalition government. Party ideology rules over working together to solve the problems associated with the practical aspects of state governance.

    Canada, as a 'new world' state, has never really had to struggle with that progression from ideology to 'reformation'. The primary reason is because we never revolted from the British empire and the bulk of our legal tradition was adopted from British common law. The queen, for example, is still our head of state. Does that mean anything? It's mostly a symbol of our 'Si', to stretch an analogy. In terms of ideology, it means that we have a history of working through the system to effect change, as opposed to taking up arms and building it from scratch.

    Long story short, I think it's wise to allow yourself to get beyond ideology.
    SLI/ISTp -- Te subtype

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    I think it's as simple as this.

    You can tell the actual success of any society by the way it treats its intellectuals, homosexuals and women.

    And practically speaking, depending on what exactly you're talking about, we need to be as far left or right (or in the middle) as possible and not make any compromises. Health is too important. We can't keep risk losing qualified citizens because of greedy-ass inhumane drug companies. Fuck libertarianism or right-wing politics on that issue, it needs to be as hippie and far left as possible. There is no facts to get in the way. Of course it can't happen overnight but there needs to be a start.

    We need to have libertarianism politics on things like environment. If you hurt another person, we can't have any soft-hearted people. We need to come down on them hard. Rehabilitation programs and talk therapy and all those Oprah and Tyra shows don't work and are actually counterproductive. We need to have people suffer the consequence of their choices, and teach them how to make better choices (for them.) It's all about better lifestyle habits, not talk therapy or taking drugs.

    Prozac and all that was started as social control and nazi-ism. By greedy "professionals." IT IS PURELY EVIL. It needs to be DESTROYED. THEY HELP NOBODY. There is no such thing as 'mental illness' or bipolar disorder. Depression is just a sad mood for a person that hasn't decided what they want to do with themselves yet. But it isn't an illness or sickness. That stuff is physical. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

    Welfare system... and birth control (only smart girls take birth control, but these are exactly the girls that should have kids. Only stupid people have 7 kids that will grow up doing nothing with their lives, they should be *forced* not to breed), and school education. Kinda fuck everything up. These 3 systems are just so fucked up, I don't know where to begin on how to fix them, but they need to be reworked from the ground up. Education is nonsense. It keeps the smart, gifted people locked up in a jail while the destructive people run the streets in high-crime areas, or it puts all smart people together in one city to create a velvet coffin. Usually white people that are afraid of too many things.

    Transportation needs to be looked at better. Cars are getting old. There needs to be a form of underground public transformation in suburbs, not just urban areas. This would be so awesome.

    We need to train people for practical jobs at early ages, not just wait until they're 18!!! This is so fucking stupid. We need to stop feeding them so many ideas, unless they're creative enough to make a system or utilize it.

    School system, we need to recognize personality clashes in students and encourage alternative methods of education, but socialization still needs to be required or people will grow up being overly fearful of others. All to often in society, we side with the bully or the offender instead of the victims. The offenders should take counseling and therapy, not the victims- even though they will be more willing to go. We need more teachers and smaller classes in all schools, and comfortable desks. And we need to encourage more hands-on learning from an early age.

    We need to be more realistic with sex offenders.

    We need to teach kids diversity early (in a way they can understand), not just when they get to college and then all of a sudden they kiss black and gay people's asses. At the same time we have to be realistic. You are going to want to hang out with your own kind. So those overly idealistic lesbian school teachers that make johnathon play with nicky just cause john's white and nicky is black, has to go and another other Lifetime TV nonsense.

    Life is all about relationships. Instead of creating systems and structures and more stuff that will just eat up money, we need to get people to connect with like-minded individuals as much as possible. Maybe I guess you need a system or structure to do this, but let's be smart about it. Trying too hard will backfire.

    More to come later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I think it's as simple as this.

    You can tell the actual success of any society by the way it treats its intellectuals, homosexuals and women.

    And practically speaking, depending on what exactly you're talking about, we need to be as far left or right (or in the middle) as possible and not make any compromises. Health is too important. We can't keep risk losing qualified citizens because of greedy-ass inhumane drug companies. Fuck libertarianism or right-wing politics on that issue, it needs to be as hippie and far left as possible. There is no facts to get in the way. Of course it can't happen overnight but there needs to be a start.

    We need to have libertarianism politics on things like environment. If you hurt another person, we can't have any soft-hearted people. We need to come down on them hard. Rehabilitation programs and talk therapy and all those Oprah and Tyra shows don't work and are actually counterproductive. We need to have people suffer the consequence of their choices, and teach them how to make better choices (for them.) It's all about better lifestyle habits, not talk therapy or taking drugs.

    Prozac and all that was started as social control and nazi-ism. By greedy "professionals." IT IS PURELY EVIL. It needs to be DESTROYED. THEY HELP NOBODY. There is no such thing as 'mental illness' or bipolar disorder. Depression is just a sad mood for a person that hasn't decided what they want to do with themselves yet. But it isn't an illness or sickness. That stuff is physical. WAKE UP PEOPLE.

    Welfare system... and birth control (only smart girls take birth control, but these are exactly the girls that should have kids. Only stupid people have 7 kids that will grow up doing nothing with their lives, they should be *forced* not to breed), and school education. Kinda fuck everything up. These 3 systems are just so fucked up, I don't know where to begin on how to fix them, but they need to be reworked from the ground up. Education is nonsense. It keeps the smart, gifted people locked up in a jail while the destructive people run the streets in high-crime areas, or it puts all smart people together in one city to create a velvet coffin. Usually white people that are afraid of too many things.

    Transportation needs to be looked at better. Cars are getting old. There needs to be a form of underground public transformation in suburbs, not just urban areas. This would be so awesome.

    We need to train people for practical jobs at early ages, not just wait until they're 18!!! This is so fucking stupid. We need to stop feeding them so many ideas, unless they're creative enough to make a system or utilize it.

    School system, we need to recognize personality clashes in students and encourage alternative methods of education, but socialization still needs to be required or people will grow up being overly fearful of others. All to often in society, we side with the bully or the offender instead of the victims. The offenders should take counseling and therapy, not the victims- even though they will be more willing to go. We need more teachers and smaller classes in all schools, and comfortable desks. And we need to encourage more hands-on learning from an early age.

    We need to be more realistic with sex offenders.

    We need to teach kids diversity early (in a way they can understand), not just when they get to college and then all of a sudden they kiss black and gay people's asses. At the same time we have to be realistic. You are going to want to hang out with your own kind. So those overly idealistic lesbian school teachers that make johnathon play with nicky just cause john's white and nicky is black, has to go and another other Lifetime TV nonsense.

    Life is all about relationships. Instead of creating systems and structures and more stuff that will just eat up money, we need to get people to connect with like-minded individuals as much as possible. Maybe I guess you need a system or structure to do this, but let's be smart about it. Trying too hard will backfire.

    More to come later.
    <3 +100

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    Fear and consume. Fear and consume. Fear and consume.

    The cycle has to stop somewhere. *sigh*

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    I think it's as simple as this.

    You can tell the actual success of any society by the way it treats its intellectuals, homosexuals and women.
    Stop there.

    I'm going to say nothing else but this: "success" within a society is purely relative to said society's values and ideas.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    This can't just be me. Other Betas must be even just remotely tortured by this conflict between ideals and reality. It may not even be related to politics for many of you, but political thought certainly comes into it.
    So you base your ideals on fantasy, and then cry when they don't come about?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I think Castro's Cuba is a good example of this phenomenon. But, as you say, it won't last.



    Exactly. This is where authoritarianism comes from. People are too flawed to govern themselves, so there must be a strict hierarchy and a rulebook to be followed.
    There already is a heiarchy. A natural one. But we assume that there isn't in our society and that makes it disfunctional. Part of the problem though is that although we can recognize a heiarchy exists, we do not know what it means for it to exist, particularly to each other.

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