Enneagram Type 6s and attaining self-confidence

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Anybody know how an enneagram type 6 can achieve self-confidence? I know by asking others how to improve my own confidence... is a bit contradictory, but I'm a 6 I don't know what else to do. I tend to easily self-sabotage everything for myself. Then people can't believe I do this, as they see how capable I really am. I still always rely on others to tell me what to do. It's really pathetic but it's my natural Achilles heel so I don't know how to overcome it. It's the inherent darkness that I was born with. I'm finally starting to make decisions for myself though and it is improving my relationships with others.

I can give easily of myself (and am so good at being an advocate for people), but without boosting up my own strengths sometimes there's nothing to give.

I always think I gotta tell people too much or ask for their advice and opinion. If I'm making a big life change it's stressful because I always think I need to ask 15 people what I should do and if I'm really doing the right thing. It's pathetic. How can I listen to my OWN fucking voice for once, because once I do, I'm almost always right.

I never really learned how to build my own confidence. I've always placed it in other people and their compliments of me. =/ I just realized this, and why my life is kinda always fucked up and how I ruin things for myself.

I guess it all comes down to thrusting myself and doing things I don't want to do, to build up character from challenges. (but see this isn't really it either because sometimes I can do really dangerous things just to shock and wake my body up. I can be brave, but also recklessly stupid.)

It would make me too anxious to be a specialized professional though. I need variety and a hybrid life of many experiences to find true peace, I feel.

[force my hand]

I always think I gotta tell people too much or ask for their advice and opinion. If I'm making a big life change it's stressful because I always think I need to ask 15 people what I should do and if I'm really doing the right thing. It's pathetic. How can I listen to my OWN fucking voice for once, because once I do, I'm almost always right.

In your daily life, maybe try doing things without anyone's knowledge. Going somewhere? Just go. You're doing what you want to do with no one's approval, disapproval, or input, and you're perfectly fine with, and capable of dealing with it on your own terms.

A small part of this is also recognizing that nearly all the decisions you make regarding something in your life aren't as big as they seem at the time. Unless you are doing something dangerous or reckless, there are very few choices you can't change, erase, or remake.

[strrrng]

I am presently imbibing coffee. I am uncertain of the roast, but I know that it is one of the more elite versions, possibly even a specialty, which my mom is known to purchase on occasion. If it is simply an elite version that we usually get, I am content; if it is special, I am very happy. This is because I am a coffee expert, and have very high standards. Once you engulf yourself in something, your tastes become ever-increasingly extravagant. I might soon find myself in some hispanic land, growing the beans myself, and slurping down a nice cup of jo with pedro. The cream I am using is cinnamon brullette (or some shit) and gives the coffee a soft zestiness - like an ENFp girl with some intensity.

Oh yeah.

As per YO 6 DILEMMA NIGGA...I really don't know what to say. It's clear that you're self-aware, in many ways, and you have already evinced all the necessary information. It is up to you to take that leap into the darkness, and have faith that you will come out the other side - scathed or not.

And when I drink the coffee, I have a very specific technique. I abandoned straws a few months ago, but I have yet to see even the remotest change in my pearly whites. I softly press my lower lip to the mug, give it a subtle tilt - the momentum it takes to move a feather - and position my jaw such that my front teeth, for the most part, evade the barrage of the brown gold. I relish every last drop of this gift to mankind.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[idolatrie]

I am presently imbibing coffee. I am uncertain of the roast, but I know that it is one of the more elite versions, possibly even a specialty, which my mom is known to purchase on occasion. If it is simply an elite version that we usually get, I am content; if it is special, I am very happy. This is because I am a coffee expert, and have very high standards. Once you engulf yourself in something, your tastes become ever-increasingly extravagant. I might soon find myself in some hispanic land, growing the beans myself, and slurping down a nice cup of jo with pedro. The cream I am using is cinnamon brullette (or some shit) and gives the coffee a soft zestiness - like an ENFp girl with some intensity.

Oh yeah.

As per YO 6 DILEMMA NIGGA...I really don't know what to say. It's clear that you're self-aware, in many ways, and you have already evinced all the necessary information. It is up to you to take that leap into the darkness, and have faith that you will come out the other side - scathed or not.

And when I drink the coffee, I have a very specific technique. I abandoned straws a few months ago, but I have yet to see even the remotest change in my pearly whites. I softly press my lower lip to the mug, give it a subtle tilt - the momentum it takes to move a feather - and position my jaw such that my front teeth, for the most part, evade the barrage of the brown gold. I relish every last drop of this gift to mankind.

Oh my god. You're a complete nutcase, and I love it.

To Bullets&Doves: any advice you get here is just going to be more of asking other people their opinions to let you justify your own action or inaction. You seem to already know that you need to just take ownership of your life decisions, but asking other people if you should do this (which is what this thread seems to be directed at doing) is just falling into the previous problem you identified. I can't tell you to jump, you've got to decide to do that yourself. You believe your own voice is right, so just listen to it.

I am no expert on 6s, I don't know how they work or what they need. But that's just my opinion on what you've written here.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

In your daily life, maybe try doing things without anyone's knowledge. Going somewhere? Just go. You're doing what you want to do with no one's approval, disapproval, or input, and you're perfectly fine with, and capable of dealing with it on your own terms.

Hey, that is really helpful. Thanks.

Also I self-sabotage myself by bringing up old issues that everybody else has long forgotten. I ALWAYS do this in my close relationships and it's always bit me on the ass lol. Once I learn to let go and really learn about what makes other people tick, it seems to help. My greatest good is seeing the unity/connection in everything.

A small part of this is also recognizing that nearly all the decisions you make regarding something in your life aren't as big as they seem at the time.

Oh yes, that makes sense.

[strrrng]

Oh my god. You're a complete nutcase, and I love it.

<333

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I can't tell you to jump, you've got to decide to do that yourself. You believe your own voice is right, so just listen to it.

Yeah the reason why I ask other people so much is because if things really go to shit, I don't trust myself to handle it well. (6s inherent nature is to be protected.) If I can somehow get over this though, I know I will be like really super successful in life. Right now though I'm about a 4 (ambivalent state) then a 1 though.

And it makes me really dorky to get other people's opinion over a simple choice. I just have to stop doing this and not telling people everything I do. lol.

[mikemex]

What you describe is usual business for IEEs. It doesn't mean that you're wrong, but rather shows some of the inherent characteristics of your type, for example, perfectionism.

Other people isn't really that concerned about doing the right thing so they usually don't spend as much time when it comes to decision making. They are simply contempt about a more or less positive outcome.

While it may make you to feel "pathetic" - and believe me, it is wrong to compare yourself to others - it does have its bright sides. For example, when I'm going to purchase a product for my personal use, I tend to inform myself about the choices, the pros and cons of each one and finally make a choice that seems to best balance all the possible characteristics. This ability of mine is praised by everyone who knows me and I'm often asked to make such decisions for others.

In Socionics terms, it's seeking Te while lacking Ti. You could deduct a lot of things from logic, but since logic is weak, then you must find out from outside sources. That's why you tend to mistrust your own opinions: you're afraid that your conclusions have nothing to do with reality.

Thing is, there is no "cure" because there is no problem in the first place. The older you become, and the more time spent observing the world and learning about it, the more "factual" information you have to feed into your Fi and the more confident about your own opinions you become.

[Phaedrus]

I really don't know how to be any other way, and unless I get so bad that I turn into Phaedrus or something, I'm not too worried. As for advice. . . what force my hand said sounds good.

The lack of self-confidence in ISFj 6s is a problem I am very familiar with. I have lost count of how many times I have tried to help them be more self-confident and assertive and to get out of their depressive streaks.

The Phaedrusian way doesn't seem to work for an ISFj 6 though. They tend to feel too anxious and uneasy if they act as aggressively as I sometimes do, but I also think that the 6s usually feel better when they manage to be slightly more assertive than their normal self. It's mostly a matter of practice. A 6 can shine if he or she starts to believe in themselves just a little bit more. Focus on what you are good at, protest against unjustice, demand to be treated with respect at work. Don't do others work if you don't really feel like it. You don't get more respect in the eyes of others if you always act like a convenient servant to them.

[strrrng]

What you describe is usual business for IEEs. It doesn't mean that you're wrong, but rather shows some of the inherent characteristics of your type, for example, perfectionism.

What he describes are 6 qualities and have very little to do with ENFp's, other than some passing similarities. Any type can be perfectionistic; stop aggrandizing yourself, delta boy.

Other people AREN'T really that concerned about doing the right thing so they usually don't spend as much time when it comes to decision making. They are simply contempt about a more or less positive outcome.

That's correct. To me, the ends matter. I don't think you can attribute this to socionics type, though. I hope you're not suggesting that Fi = morals.

While it may make you to feel "pathetic" - and believe me, it is wrong to compare yourself to others - it does have its bright sides. For example, when I'm going to purchase a product for my personal use, I tend to inform myself about the choices, the pros and cons of each one and finally make a choice that seems to best balance all the possible characteristics. This ability of mine is praised by everyone who knows me and I'm often asked to make such decisions for others.

"This ability" of yours? It's called natural reason. Anyone can do this when they're making a decision. lol big time @ you praising yourself for it.

In Socionics terms, it's seeking Te while lacking Ti. You could deduct a lot of things from logic, but since logic is weak, then you must find out from outside sources. That's why you tend to mistrust your own opinions: you're afraid that your conclusions have nothing to do with reality.

Absolutely retarded. This is not function-related at all. What he described is 6 related; stop turning functions into stupid behaviors. You obviously don't understand them at all.

Thing is, there is no "cure" because there is no problem in the first place. The older you become, and the more time spent observing the world and learning about it, the more "factual" information you have to feed into your Fi and the more confident about your own opinions you become.

You've managed to spin this around into some convoluted train of thought (although I am wary to use the word "thought" when describing your post) about ENFp's being great, lol. This is about 6's for the last fucking time, so stop tainting threads with your flawed understanding of socionics.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[FDG]

The lack of self-confidence in ISFj 6s is a problem I am very familiar with. I have lost count of how many times I have tried to help them be more self-confident and assertive and to get out of their depressive streaks.

Well you don't have to talk with 6s about their problems in order to make them get out of their depressive streaks. You have to talk about anything else, mostly useless bullshit that will make them forget problems (given that most of the problems they're speaking about don't really exist in reality anyway).

[Phaedrus]

Not to derail. . . but I'm obviously not a 6. And B&D isn't ISFj.

Every ISFj is obviously a 6, so you have no choice in the matter. Either you are a 6 or you are not an ISFj.

[marooned]

The lack of self-confidence in ISFj 6s is a problem I am very familiar with. I have lost count of how many times I have tried to help them be more self-confident and assertive and to get out of their depressive streaks.

The Phaedrusian way doesn't seem to work for an ISFj 6 though. They tend to feel too anxious and uneasy if they act as aggressively as I sometimes do, but I also think that the 6s usually feel better when they manage to be slightly more assertive than their normal self.

Are you sure these are ISFjs??? I'm getting the "passive doormat" image, which I wouldn't have associated with ISFj as a type necessarily (though individual ISFjs could act that way depending on who they are). I mean you can say I don't have enough real-life interactions or I'm being a moron, but do ILIs normally go about trying to engender self-confidence in aggressive ways to their activity partners? (I know that is not precisely what you said - I seem to be exaggerating it.)

A 6 can shine if he or she starts to believe in themselves just a little bit more. Focus on what you are good at, protest against unjustice, demand to be treated with respect at work. Don't do others work if you don't really feel like it. You don't get more respect in the eyes of others if you always act like a convenient servant to them.

I don't disagree with these sentiments. (6 or not)

Every ISFj is obviously a 6, so you have no choice in the matter. Either you are a 6 or you are not an ISFj.

[implied]

I see 6 as more of an STj thing. I think E1 and IxFj makes a lot of sense.

fwiw, i wouldn't have agreed with you until after actually reading the big riso-hudson book. like i barely see myself as a six anymore after reading it.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I think a 6 is a good fit for an ISFj, but as enneagram and socionics are two different systems, I don't think we can say *all* ISFj's are 6's, although Phadders will probably shoot me for that. Infact a 1 could be an ISFj as well..meh

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

This is kind of more anxious/reactive thing than being a doormat though. I challenge authority figures all the time if I feel they're being wrong. I live in a suburb of Detroit, so I'm used to people trying to intimidate me. It's really more complicated than that.

I'm not a doormat. I do have self-confidence issues, but a doormat is something a little different imo. I'm more passive-aggressive and campy/very angry (sometimes). Sometimes I'll even do reckless things just to shock myself up. In my mind, a doormat would just avoid anything that is confrontational. I just have a hard time taking reasonable risks and calming myself down so I don't lash out on others or beat myself up. I know how to be assertive in social situations, although they still bother me.

I love to get counsel, but then again - I also hate being told what to do, so it's a constant conflict. The only way to get rid of this is to simply trust myself more. However, my close friends and family are so used to me telling them what I'm doing that they become nosy if I'm being too quiet about my own life. It's a hard pattern for me to break, but you guys are right, it's not everybody's business what I do lol.

[marooned]

This is kind of more anxious/reactive thing than being a doormat though.

I didn't mean to imply you were being a doormat! (just in case :-))

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Ah, okay. Thank you. Just clearing things up. =)

[Phaedrus]

I see 6 as more of an STj thing. I think E1 and IxFj makes a lot of sense.

Clearly wrong. If you compare type 1 with type 6, you will see that type 1 is described as logical and type 6 as ethical. I have investigated exactly this problem some years ago, and the conclusion is inescapable. If we want to blur the distinction between T and F, we might say that both ISTjs and ISFjs can be either type (1 or 6), but the prototypical 6 is still an ISFj, and the prototypical 1 is still an ISTj (or IXTj).

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Says you. There is no evidence to back that up. Enneagram and socionics are two different things. You're making connections when there isn't any. I probably should have posted this in another section to avoid the confusion though.

[Phaedrus]

Says you. There is no evidence to back that up.

Of course there is. So you haven't read any books about the Enneagram and the Enneagram types? You haven't read any articles on the Internet? I suggest you read some articles on the Enneagram types right away. Your attitude here is despicable, because you refuse to check the facts.

Enneagram and socionics are two different things. You're making connections when there isn't any. I probably should have posted this in another section to avoid the confusion though.

Your infantile prejudices are disgusting. Saying that there are no connections between the Enneagram and Socionics is like saying "I'm the ultimate idiot, and I know nothing, therefore you nohing either."

[strrrng]

Your attitude here is despicable, because you refuse to check the facts.

lol

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Sorry Phaed, but any connection you make between enneagram and socionics is your own doing. They are not connected. I've read plenty of articles on both socionics and enneagram types too, btw. You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim. Don't make me press the cartoony 'flush me' button here.

Insults will get you nowhere, my child.

Yeah lol me too. I almost always regret it, because I know the best choices already. I know what I want, what I need. But there's always like this compulsive desire to check things out with other people. But then they don't agree with me or react in a way I hadn't anticipated, and that makes me even more confused and angry at myself and others and shit. Dunno. I have to tell myself, "don't ask, don't ask, don't ask. just do, do it, go for it, etc".

Yeah, see there's this guy I really like and I want to ask like the whole world if I should call him or not. He's probably already been assassinated by evil homophobes because I didn't just go ahead and call him myself. Grr.

[Ezra]

A good practice for Sixes is to go with your gut impulse. Sixes are prone to a lot of second-guessing and self-doubt. But if you don't give your mind time enough to voice said self-doubt/second-guessing, you will end up doing what you really need to do. Eventually it will become a habit, and you'll sail through life with confidence.

[strrrng]

Sorry Phaed, but any connection you make between enneagram and socionics is your own doing. They are not connected. I've read plenty of articles on both socionics and enneagram types too, btw. You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim. Don't make me press the cartoony 'flush me' button here.

Actually they are correlated. There are about 2-4 possible enneagram types for a given socionics type. Have you ever met an ENTj 2w3?

[Phaedrus]

Sorry Phaed, but any connection you make between enneagram and socionics is your own doing.

Sorry, Bullet, but any lack of ability to see the obvious connections between the socionic and the Enneagram types is a clear sign of low IQ. You can't help that you are unintelligent of course, but you wouldn't look like such an idiot if you realized that your capacity to understand things is limited.

They are not connected. I've read plenty of articles on both socionics and enneagram types too, btw.

And understood nothing. Well, that's too bad for you, but if you don't understand you don't understand.

You still haven't provided any evidence to support your claim.

The evidence is in the Enneagram type descriptions, which you claim that you have read and not understood. So there's not much to do about the fact that you can't see what's right in front of your eyes.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

A good practice for Sixes is to go with your gut impulse.

Hmm. Is it that simple? I feel if I do that I will feel like I'm being arrogant and like I'm always right. If you take a depressed Six and mix in inevitable life mistakes, they may not even see the point of getting on the horse in the first place. But I'm learning if you just go through the dark night of the soul you usually come out on the other side a stronger person. In fact, since normal stuff *is* actually harder for me, if I just go ahead and find some way to do it on my own, I usually become a leader -- because I already got all the other stuff down. Telling me I'm like everybody else doesn't help me though, as well, it's clear that I'm not like everybody else if I'm having these unique issues, but oh well.

There are also many life situations where gut instincts don't come into play, where you have to have a rational sense of practicality. We might be right in our ideal life and what's best for us, but actually getting there is frustrating, but something we do have to do on our own.

Actually they are correlated. There are about 2-4 possible enneagram types for a given socionics type. Have you ever met an ENTj 2w3?

.... That's very strange to me. What authority decided they were connected like this? If this is something that Expat and you guys just dabbled in cause you were bored one day, that is NOT a real connection. So again, where are the facts to back that up?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

And understood nothing. Well, that's too bad for you, but if you don't understand you don't understand.

lol. It's clear that you are the one that can't understand if you can't answer a simple question correctly. I'm used to this my whole life though. As a Six, I may lack self-confidence but I also know how to challenge a bad authority better than anybody else- so get off your high horse, scum. You do not know more about socionics than me.

All I'm asking for is factual evidence for this claim. So far I'm not getting anything other than 'Duh! The Sky is blue just cause it's blue!' responses.

[strrrng]

.... That's very strange to me. What authority decided they were connected like this? If this is something that Expat and you guys just dabbled in cause you were bored one day, that is NOT a real connection. So again, where are the facts to back that up?

There isn't any systematic formulation; the correlations are just consistent. You have to see it for yourself, I guess, but certain E-types are definitely more prominent for certain socionics types.

[Ezra]

Hmm. Is it that simple? I feel if I do that I will feel like I'm being arrogant and like I'm always right.

Don't. Those who are afraid of becoming arrogant practically don't stand a chance of actually doing so. The same applies to those who have a problem with looking as if they think they're always right. Anyway, even if it comes to that (which, for a modest guy like you it won't), what's the problem? Negative perceptions of you from other people? Who gives a shit what people think.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Well er, thank you for your insight Ezra. It's always much appreciated. =p

It all depends on what you really want out of life I guess. Love feels so much better than power to me. *shrug*

What doesn't help me though is the typical psychological response that 'we all care about what other people think of us.' Well uh, actually - there are times where I really don't, and other times that I do, so how is it that simple? It's just some catch phrase they teach all psychologists when dealing with new clients. Boring.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Those who are afraid of becoming arrogant practically don't stand a chance of actually doing so.

Well that can't be totally true anyway, as I've had friends tell me before they thought I was being arrogant. It felt like the world's worst insult. Arrogant? Little old moi? It's a matter of perception. More ideals that depend on who you ask, really.

It's not that I'm easy to offend, not really at all. It's just when something does happen to offend or catch me off guard, I can't exactly rehearse my response, that's what makes relationships so difficult.

I'm probably thinking about things too much. But I'm tired of playing video games and masturbating like everybody else.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[strrrng]

Being called arrogant isn't really an insult. Most people just say it when they're frustrated because they know that they can't change your mind. My sister called me "stubborn and hardhearted" the other day for the same reason, and I get called "arrogant bitch" almost regularly around here. What people call arrogant, egotistical, etc. and think they're insulting you is really just saying, "I'm upset that you're sure of yourself, because I'm not!"

Or maybe they tell you you're arrogant because you are being insular and presumptuous. There's a difference between being certain of yourself and ignoring other peoples' points of view and twisting their words around to fit your own pre-determined answer. But I guess you just demonstrated that lol.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[strrrng]

Don't be an idiot. When I've presumed something falsely I correct my view accordingly. And I don't twist people's words around, so fuck off.

Thanks for proving my point

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Everybody says that self-confidence is the most important thing. It's truly touted (annoningly so) as the most important trait to have in the West.

How can you do anything really, without self-confidence? Well you can - but you feel dead doing so, disconnected from your own will. And the results will always feel skewered and sloppy no matter how much you perfected the award or goal. That is the inherent core issue with 6s. Need guidance from others, we do it because a book, a mentor, a friend told us to do - and we still feel so blah. We try to do just what we want, but that doesn't work either- because we know their advice is actually right, we *need* to do what they're saying but just in our own way, a way that still feels like we're being 'us', we want the own willpower to truly want this for ourselves.

So until 6s somehow naturally have that, kind of a subtle glow of their own will and intent- they'll always scare themselves back to shittier ways of thinking, living, doing, being and breathing. Until they somehow connect themselves with their own core, a 6 is basically eternally somebody else's bitch.

It doesn't mean we're always right, it's just- we kinda stop letting stupid trivial shit that doesn't matter get in the way of fulfilling our destiny. All the little detailed obstacles that were tremendously difficult for us to accomplish, now we're doing it.

6s can get lots of peace (and power) from finally trusting people and listening to others true - finally stop all the fucking debating, playing devil's advocate, challenging others. But that's more of a healthy 6 on a 2 or 3 level. A 6 that achieved true liberation, is such a connection for humanity that they basically are so in tuned with what they want and who they are, it just keeps coming with nothing holding them back. They've achieved true internal security, so liberation comes naturally. And they can actually challenge people but this time, it's like - people start, for the first time ever, begin to truly listen.

Most 6s still believe that there is somebody else that can give them *self*-confidence, that it comes from a relationship, a career, finally having this and that etc. Until enough inner moppet is spanking is properly dolled out, a 6 will never really be who they are destined to be. Always clinging onto those times when other people protected them. It's so sweet. It feels so romantic, the 6 feels so loved and taken care for. But wait. How do they keep this person that made them feel good. By always staying weak, helpless? The person they fell in love with doesn't want that of course. They have to change. But how. The 6s have to do it. They hate this. They can't ask for advice. THEY ALREADY KNOW THE FUCKING ANSWER THEY'RE JUST BEING CUTE AND AVOIDY AND SILLY.

6s to me, are the most challenging type to be in the enneagram and why the type descriptions tend to describe us a lot more negatively than other types. Because it's *true* (Otherwise I would have a 'life' a lot easier than other people, and I don't =p Not blaming or making excuses, just understanding the innate psychological process of why this occurs) We are the true saviors of humanity when at the top, but even an average 6 is so obviously self-destructive that it doesn't seem to be the case. Most potential heroes fall, given into their own demons in their minds- refused to awakened.

We are given all these trust, all this superficial external power, all this glory from society by listening to them finally and caving in to their ideals, others find us very likeable and endearing and honest and 'safe' (especially professionals and authority figures) - all this belief in OTHER PEOPLE but totally stripped away from our own sense of what it is *we* want to do. It's so brutally heartless, that only a 6 truly understands.