View Poll Results: what is her type?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    0 0%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    1 50.00%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    1 50.00%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

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Thread: Camille Paglia (possible ENTj)

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    Default Camille Paglia (possible ENTj)

    Camille Paglia

    Not everything fits imo, but from watching her, and reading her writings and interviews over the years, I think it's the best typing.













    Last edited by silke; 12-02-2017 at 01:58 AM. Reason: updated links
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    That woman in your avatar?

    Is it Hera or someone from one of those swords-and-sandals/biblical epics of which there was a spate in the '60s?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    That woman in your avatar?

    Is it Hera or someone from one of those swords-and-sandals/biblical epics of which there was a spate in the '60s?
    What does she have to do with Camille Paglia?

    The woman in my avatar is Honor Blackman - better known for her role as Pussy Galore in Goldfinger - playing, yes, Hera in Jason and the Argonauts.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Creepy-Pied Piper

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    Removed at User Request

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    ESTp.

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    Te?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sevjenn View Post
    Te?
    I think a lot of pantywaist Delta NFs who like to bemoan "rape culture" or whatever would find her very troubling company indeed.

    "I identify not with those who seek comfort and contentment, but with those 'strained and starved for the saber'" are not the words of a Si user, methinks.

    EDIT: Just watched that video at the top, holy shit, she is not nearly as charismatic a speaker as she is on the page. Almost seems dithering here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoobie77 View Post
    I think a lot of pantywaist Delta NFs who like to bemoan "rape culture" or whatever would find her very troubling company indeed.

    "I identify not with those who seek comfort and contentment, but with those 'strained and starved for the saber'" are not the words of a Si user, methinks.

    EDIT: Just watched that video at the top, holy shit, she is not nearly as charismatic a speaker as she is on the page. Almost seems dithering here.

    this reminds me of an interview i read yesterday here

    http://www.theguardian.com/music/200...arty-interview

    this guy is probably EIE and has been lou reed's protégé


    "In Europe, culture isn't homogenised, the way the media have made it in America. I love the sense of locality, the way it produces different reactions to me. We started in Scandinavia. In Norway, everyone was on the same page as me about the environment; when I talked to people they asked such clear, clean, beautiful questions. Then in Switzerland, I'd get these twisted Jungian queries about identity. A journalist asked me, 'Why should we trust you? You put yourself out there as so vulnerable, you want us to take care of you.' I thought that was very Swiss: so suspicious and paranoid."

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    delta loves Camille!

    but I think shes a good example of Fe polr in dominant intuition

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    ILI-Te sx/sp 5w6 afaik.

    The "seducer", emotionally hyper-charged and overflowing sx subtype.

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    hi. i think i've kinda fallen in love with her.
    Last edited by bgdjf; 01-30-2018 at 12:50 PM.

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    I have mixed feelings about her but I find her the opposite of boring and I appreciate that..

    I'm partial to ILI after I saw @silkes post because she reminds me of @Scapegrace a little but I haven't devoted brainpower to it.

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    sp/sx 8w9


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    "Literature and art are never created for scholars but for a universal audience. If academics cannot see that audience, the cannot see art.”

    “In America, Rousseauism has turned Freud’s conflict-based psychoanalysis into weepy hand-holding. Contemporary liberalism is untruthful about cosmic realities. Therapy, defining anger and hostility in merely personal terms, seeks to cure what was never a problem before Rousseau. Mediterranean, as well as African-American, culture has a lavish system of language and gesture to channel and express negative emotion. Rousseauists who take the Utopian view of personality are always distressed or depressed over world outbreaks of violence and anarchy. But because, as a Sadean, I believe history is in nature and of it, I tend to be far more cheerful and optimistic than my liberal friends. Despite crime’s omnipresence, things work in society, because biology compels it. Order eventually restores itself, by psychic equilibrium. Films like Seven Samurai (1954) and Two Women (1961) accurately show the breakdown of social controls as a regression to animal-like squalor.”

    "If sexual physiology provides the pattern for our experience of the world, what is woman's basic metaphor? It is mystery, the hidden. Karen Horney speaks of a girl's inability to see her genitals and a boy's ability to see his as the source of "the greater subjectivity of women as compared with the greater objectivity of men." To rephrase this with my different emphasis: men's delusional certitude that objectivity is possible is based on the visibility of their genitals. Second, this certitude is a defensive swerve from the anxiety-inducing invisibility of the womb. Women tend to be more realistic and less obsessional because of their toleration for ambiguity which they learn from their inability to learn about their own bodies. Women accept limited knowledge as their natural condition, a great human truth that a man may take a lifetime to reach.
    The female body’s unbearable hiddenness applies to all aspects men’s dealings with women. What does it look like in there? Did she have an orgasm? Is it really my child? Who was my real father? Mystery surrounds women’s sexuality. This mystery is the main reason for the imprisonment man has imposed on women. Only by confining his wife in a locked harem guarded by eunuchs could he be certain that her son was also his.”

    “Eroticism is mystique; that is, the aura of emotion and imagination around sex. It cannot be 'fixed' by codes of social or moral convenience, whether from the political left or right. For nature's fascism is greater than that of any society. There is a daemonic instability in sexual relations that we may have to accept.”

    "Charisma is the numinous aura around a narcissistic personality. It flows outward from a simplicity or unity of being and a composure and controlled vitality. There is gracious accommodation, yet commanding impersonality. Charisma is the radiance produced by the interaction of male and female elements in a gifted personality. The charismatic woman has a masculine force and severity. The charismatic man has an entrancing female beauty. Both are hot and cold, glowing with presexual self love.”

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    ILI sounds good

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    I'm very divided about her, can't understand what she's up to... LIE doesn't seem off

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    ENT*
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    ^ I have a similar stance on paglia but it changed ever-so-slightly when I watched this video (courtesy of bgdjf)



    she's a lot more coherent when she interacts with people who respect her views, if you compare the above interview with the following interview:



    there's a pretty big difference in how she expresses herself when she feels as if she's automatically thrust into defensive mode. wendy mesley kept cutting off paglia with loaded questions that misconstrued what paglia was actually saying ("oh, you don't believe rape is wrong?" - "no, I'm distinguishing between rape and exaggerated accounts of sexual assault" - "oh, so you don't believe sexual assault is a problem?") I feel like her suppressed frustration comes from dealing with people like mesley on a daily basis but, even then, I find it hard to sit through her interviews when she gets carried away in her monologues because they're overshadowed by her chaotic speech patterns. I still find myself agreeing with some of her views because there's no denying she's a smart woman, but she'd probably garner more support if instead of building her entire personal ideology on attacking her adversaries, she just advocated her own views. there's always going to be intellectual opposition, but I feel like she's just fueling the controversy because she's afraid of fading into the background. I think it was lungs who posted a video of paglia freaking out after an interviewer told her that a modern feminist (susan sontag) claimed not to know of paglia's work, but there's something about the way she freaked out. I get that she was mainly upset by sontag lying since there's no way she hasn't heard of paglia, but it was trademark narcissistic rage. I guess that's the unfortunate byproduct of growing up in a room full of idiots.



    I just finished watching a few videos of temple grandin so I compared their speech patterns in my head, which is probably why I'm so opposed to paglia's speech patterns. paglia is a shaking ball of misdirected energy, whereas grandin has always had a penchant for expressing herself calmly and coherently.

    EDIT: uh I forgot to type her. I just picked up on high intuition and Ne-Si valuing, but she's definitely not beta, so gamma NT fits the mark pretty well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    I still find myself agreeing with some of her views because there's no denying she's a smart woman, but she'd probably garner more support if instead of building her entire personal ideology on attacking her adversaries, she just advocated her own views. there's always going to be intellectual opposition, but I feel like she's just fueling the controversy because she's afraid of fading into the background.
    I feel like in her zeal to be relevant and make money she can come off like a soundbite-generating entertainer like coulter and she's too good for that. It makes her a little less trustworthy to me but! I am entertained! (even if I'm mentally making jerkoff motions). And maybe theres something to your more sympathetic idea that being noisy is how she's able to get her controversial ideas pushed through an unwelcoming ether, actually god knows I can relate to that.

    What do you mean by narcissistic rage?

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    my first "younger" paglia interview:

    i've only watched half of this so far, but i'm coming up with a bunch of reasons how and why she comes across somewhat differently here (some already mentioned, like she seems matched with Maher and respects him, but i think age, experience, and where society/she was at the time are the main things). but here's another interview in which i'm digging her vibe. i'm missing the crazy cat lady thing a bit lol, but you can see it's seeds.

    (she comes across much happier, although the setting could be some of that)



    there's moments in this where she's reminding me of hillary clinton (maybe it's just a facial and expressions thing, but could be different because politician vs cultural critic)...(lol she just started talking about hillary and why she doesn't have much respect for her)
    Last edited by bgdjf; 01-31-2018 at 04:54 AM.

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    great analysis wasp! and thanks

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    I love how she called out gender studies for not incorporating biology into their course outline

    I've watched most of the videos on this thread (save for the videos on transgender mania and bgdjf's recent trump addition) and I've seen quite a few examples of categorical Fi judgments, specifically in reference to her reactions to celebrities that she deems regressive influences on the feminist movement. there was one specific example in expat's video ("universities are an absolute wreck right now") where she takes a jab at beyonce for publicizing jay-z's infidelity despite the fact that they have a child together. it's a common behavioral pattern in paglia's controversies with public figures, she takes issue with them on a moral basis just as often as she takes issue with them on an intellectual basis. paglia's controversial persona aside, I feel like it's pretty obvious that she's firmly grounded somewhere on the Fi-Te axis, which is supported by her authentic style of self-expression, which resembles what I think might be Fe PoLR. on top of that, I think she exemplifies gamma values, but I don't think she's LIE if only because I can't, under any circumstances, see her as a positivist (if you adhere to reinin's dichotomies) but she's the poster-woman for The Critic, so for now I'm leaning ILI-Te.

    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I feel like in her zeal to be relevant and make money she can come off like a soundbite-generating entertainer like coulter and she's too good for that. It makes her a little less trustworthy to me but! I am entertained! (even if I'm mentally making jerkoff motions). And maybe theres something to your more sympathetic idea that being noisy is how she's able to get her controversial ideas pushed through an unwelcoming ether, actually god knows I can relate to that.

    What do you mean by narcissistic rage?
    there's a term coined by freud ("narcissistic injury") which refers to ego blows that provoke indignation in the narcissist after their delusions of grandeur have been questioned and/or shattered. their reactions vary from faux-aloofness to violent outbursts following their "fall from grace", which seemed to match up with paglia's reaction to sontag being (seemingly) unaware of paglia's identity and/or work. "how could she NOT know who I am after all that I've done?" but I'm hesitant to commit to that read because there's a slim chance that paglia's issue was less about her own relevance being questioned and more about sontag lying to maintain her public image since it's unlikely that any well-read feminist wouldn't be aware of paglia's influence on the feminist movement, but I still think her thought process was more like, "I've played an unquestionable role in the feminist movement, that's how I know that sontag is lying!" instead of: "if sontag is a well-read feminist, then I think it's unlikely that she's unaware of my role in the feminist movement."

    I know that's a verbose explanation, but the distinction between the two thought processes is very subtle. the former stems from paglia having a heightened perception of herself, which is unceremoniously questioned, whereas the latter stems from paglia having a respectable perception of sontag, along with a relatively humble perception of herself. I'm leaning toward the narcissistic thought process because even in her interview with nick gillespie ("universities are absolutely a wreck right now") throughout the interview, gillespie tries to be respectful toward paglia, but somewhere around the 29:43-30:03 mark, paglia immediately cuts off gillespie after he expresses slight disagreement with her views. that behavioral pattern plays out in a lot of her interviews because it seems like she's searching for a mindless echo chamber instead of an open and productive two-way discussion. it's like she perceives any sort of disagreement as a direct threat to her ego, instead of realizing that sometimes people have different views independent from her own views.

    I like watching her videos, regardless if she's controversial, but she's definitely got some stronk narcissistic leanings. I've just always attributed her narcissistic edge to the fact she probably is smarter than most of her interviewers, it was probably a similar dynamic with the people she grew up with, but over time it morphed into this heightened self-perception that devalues all the (perceived) naysayers, even if she herself is a compulsive naysayer
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    Quote Originally Posted by wasp View Post
    I've watched most of the videos on this thread (save for the videos on transgender mania and bgdjf's recent trump addition)
    i deleted the post to avoid flooding the thread (or something, idk... don't quite remember why now) but reposting it for reference and so you don't look crazy . the trump stuff is just a part of this interview, it's also her explaining her thinking behind her statements in some clips and opinions (generally glowing) on tv shows produced by one of the guys she's talking to (i think Real Housewives).


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    ILE-Ti 1w2 so/sp

    Too much monkey mind for LIE. It's Ne. Ne cognition uses a lot of synthesis; hence, the monkey mind. In contrast, Te cognition is more calculative.

    Good luck finding the Te behind her viewpoints. She's a visionary. Facts are irrelevant for paglia unless they confirm her vision. Ne-dom gives off the presumption that "who needs facts when you have intuition". In contrast, the particular strength of Te makes for a good business owner and business builder. The type of cognition Paglia has is not conducive for business ownership because it largely relies on a guessing game. She is all about stepping into the unknown (i.e. the world of possibility). In reality, her ideas are a form of gambling or speculating, the facts and evidence might be there to confirm what she's saying or they might not and the percentages don't seem to be in her favor a lot of the time. Jack the business owner (LIE) is a far more calculating brain. Hers is a synthesis cognition.

    Perfect example in the clip below, which I set at the point she begins doing exactly what I just described.

    Last edited by Kill4Me; 01-31-2018 at 04:36 PM.

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    Camille Paglie - INTP - Balzac


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    the title made me spit out my coffee

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    got a headache from watching this!


    Jee wasp your analysis came to be so true over this, which is so old compared to the other videos, she's discussing with this other feminist and every time brings back the fact that she appeared here and there on the mags, and ooo I had the front page!! wtf... she is just the perfect guest to every talk show.. raises the audience. I'm starting to think she might actually be a EIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kill4Me View Post
    Facts are irrelevant for paglia unless they confirm her vision.
    its interesting you type her Ne and then go onto say this when to me this is the opposite of Ne, which is to say radical openness to all facts, aka: the opposite of tunnel vision. maybe you meant something else by the above quote, but I think its a weird attribution to Ne dom

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    She seems LSI-Se af
    8w7 7w8 3w2

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    Introvert of any sort is just a dumb typing.

    both paglia and scapegrace are xntp. but scapegrace is an introvert. paglia is an extrovert.

    Too much word vomit and imprecise verbal diarrhea for an ILI or LSI. Though, the LSI typing accounts for her hair-splitting pedantry better than ILI does.

    (Ni/Te isn't pedantic). However, Ti-creative can engage in hair-splitting pedantry. ILE makes the most sense.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-16-2018 at 11:03 AM.

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    From Jung on the Extraverted Intuitive (Ne):

    "The intuitive's morality is governed neither by thinking nor by feeling; he has his own characteristic morality, which consists in a loyalty to his vision and in voluntary submission to its authority."

    "He brings his vision to life, he presents it convincingly and with dramatic fire, he embodies it, so to speak. But this is not play-acting, it is a kind of fate."


    Here is the dramatic fire Jung is referring to:





    She's too zealous in the presentation of her ideas for an ILI and not as penetrating of the environment. She's more embodying the ideas and trying to present it in a convincing manner. It lacks the ILI's detached orientation.

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    who's scapegrace

    btw there's a method to detect Jung personality types from astro charts, developed by 2 psychologists (Eysenck and Tyl), and Paglia is a rational dominant, well split between T and F, but no emphasis in sensing or intuition whatsoever.

    i'm saying this cause paglia is all into astrology as well (she actually has written much about archetypes keeping in mind the lessons of astrology)

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    Scapegrace is an ILI-Ni 5w4 sx/so who used to post here.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 03-16-2018 at 05:27 PM.

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    this is pagglia's chart
    Camille Paglia.png
    explanation:
    all charts are divided by 2 axis, Ascendant (on the left=it's the East!)-Descendant (on the right= it's West); and MCoeli (on top=South!)-ICoeli (on the bottom=North). They divide each chart in 4 quadrants.

    The ASC/DC axis is about introversion extroversion, things South are "outside"= extroverted; things North are introverted.

    The MC/IC axis is about individuality/self-reliance or sharing/submission, things East are more egoistic; things West less so (remember the reference points are all inverted).

    So the bottom left of the chart, North-East, is the most Introverted; the upper right of the chart, South-West, is the most extroverted.

    The reading of all charts follows an anticlockwise motion, we start from the ASC (first house marker), to the 12th. The 4 quadrants are one following the other: Intuition, Feeling, Sensing, Thinking.

    The importance of each part is given by the number and the quality of the planets involved. The Moon is the most important part of our essence.

    In Paglias' case the Moon is in the T quadrant, somewhat extroverted, the Sun (as important as the Moon but less telling of personality), is on the F side, somewhat introverted.

    It's a somewhat balanced chart, but even extremely rational.

    The quality of the planets (4 are retrograde!) is even telling, the retrograde planets are considered a sign of introversion, and they all occupy the upper side of the chart in the T quadrant, with a bit of N.

    retrograde planets are even more potent (they're closer to Earth) than normal ones, and require a greater work of integration...

    It's a rather complicated situation for Paglia, she's extremely rational (it shows!) but she seems to be so at a fault... she somehow represses her feeling side, because the 2 parts are in opposition so only one can win, so to speak.

    The other 2 quadrants, I'd favor Jupiter, on the N side, it's retrograde= more powerful, but even more Introverted.

    TeNi )

  36. #36
    Bertrand's Avatar
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    I dunno, insufficiency to me says accent on a weaker function. so the word vomit thing doesn't necessarily mean strong anything its probably weak something

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    actually good point. but even what we're best at, and can label as "good", can become "bad" if we over-do it. that overdoing then will show, at the opposite side of the spectrum, what we're missing, and what we miss can work as a great lever in a process known as "compensation": what we miss the most is what drives us greatly, but that's usually what Jung defined the unconscious (DS in socion), and the element to be compensated is indeed unconscious to the subject, althoug it can be very apparent to an outside observer..
    Last edited by ooo; 03-16-2018 at 05:27 PM.

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    not only that but calling something bad isn't necessarily bad it may be a projection, in other words "word vomit" is assuming something about the transmission (in this case its probably more or less "agreed" upon) but a lot of times it may be a reflection of our inability to pick up on what is really going on, so like we call stuff [negative characterization] it may just be that we're not getting it. so like people should be careful about making absolute statements rooted in their subjective assessment of a person, calling it this or that, it may say more about the person making the call than the subject of the judgement. strong functions may appear insufficient to others just because the other can't appreciate it and only projects how they'd like comport themselves, meanwhile the person is changing the world and the critic is off being mediocre. I think you see this a lot where people tear others down and try to put themselves on their level when its obvious they're reaching to punch up and their criticisms ought to be taken with a grain of salt. if someone was truly such a good judge of others that should be reflected in their own life commensurate to the breadth of the claims they make

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    Just as Ti-creative can engage in hair-splitting pedantry, so to can Ne-creative engage in "Word Vomit"...the fire is not as dramatic as Ne/Ti.

    Exhibit A:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    not only that but calling something bad isn't necessarily bad it may be a projection, in other words "word vomit" is assuming something about the transmission (in this case its probably more or less "agreed" upon) but a lot of times it may be a reflection of our inability to pick up on what is really going on, so like we call stuff [negative characterization] it may just be that we're not getting it. so like people should be careful about making absolute statements rooted in their subjective assessment of a person, calling it this or that, it may say more about the person making the call than the subject of the judgement. strong functions may appear insufficient to others just because the other can't appreciate it and only projects how they'd like comport themselves, meanwhile the person is changing the world and the critic is off being mediocre. I think you see this a lot where people tear others down and try to put themselves on their level when its obvious they're reaching to punch up and their criticisms ought to be taken with a grain of salt. if someone was truly such a good judge of others that should be reflected in their own life commensurate to the breadth of the claims they make

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    can you explain, I don't see what you're getting at

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