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Thread: EIE/ENFj descriptions by Meged and Ocvharov

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    Default EIE/ENFj descriptions by Meged and Ocvharov

    Preface: Although we should type by functions, descriptions are still very useful to help people 'recognise' their type. I thought I would clean up some of the machine-translated descriptions because the garbled language obscured a lot of meaning. I've started with EIE because I think I understand this type the best. In addition to straightening out the language, I've elaborated on the descriptions for clarity. I'll do the others later if I find time.

    --

    Ethical Intuitive Extravert

    This is the most contradictory and most varied type of personality both internally and outwardly.
    Most frequently variable, but not running, but a somewhat scattered view of eye they are expressive in Eie: they transfer first internal emotional incandescence, then is melancholy. Usually these emotions are not so much caused by real state of affairs, as they speak about the increased sensitiveness Eie.
    Mimicry is also very diverse, obedient situation and that role, which is diverted Eie in this situation. This tuning of emotions occurs naturally and not always prednamerenno. Some representatives of this type have alarming, nervous smile, but majority smile rarely, preferring to preserve the serious expression of face.
    The gait Eie, as a rule, elegant, clear, smooth, although a certain fixedness of motions is noticeable. Manners and poses are frequently they are spectacular, aristokratichny, and the gestures of produmanny, but regardless of the fact, they are modest or izyskanny, by them frequently does not be sufficient naturalness.
    This is the most contradictory and varied type of personality, both internally and in their outward expression and behaviour. Their expressions are very often variable but do not necessarily follow in a consistent fashion. Changes between expressions may be sudden and suprising. They can demonstrate emotional incandescence and then immediately change their expression to that of melancholy, according to their internal emotional states. Usually these emotional stages are not triggered by an external state of affairs, but are instead in reaction to the inner sensitivies of the EIE: how they percieve and interpret the world according to an internal filter.

    Their external behaviour is often very diverse in its range, appropriate and adpated to the situation they find themselves in and the roles they find themselves occupying. This fine-tuning of their emotional expressiveness and their own internal emotional states to suit the external situation happens naturally. It often does not require prompting or deliberation on their part.

    Some EIEs may have an a striking smile conveying a great deal of nervous energy, but the majority smile rarely. Instead, they prefer to preserve a neutral expression as their default facial expression and only 'light up' when they are responding to some form of buoyancy produced by people or events around them.

    The gait of an EIE is elegant, clear, and smooth, although there might be certain rigidity or control over their motions. Motions and poses of the EIE are frequently 'spectacular', as though performing these actions rather than simply executing them. They often convey a degree of aristocracy and there is some deliberateness of action. Regardless of this however, they are modest, but not necessarily 'natural', in their presentation. That is, even when appearing natural and unaffected, there is an undertone that their actions have been calculated to leave these impression.

    Ni-Subtype: ARTIST

    ARTIST
    Intuitive subtype - original creative personality, extravagant and not predicted. It is very inquisitive and talkative. It is sufficiently emotional, we wound vpechatlitelen. It is internally stressed, frequent doubts and fluctuations are experienced, because of what it is sufficiently variable in its solutions. It occurs quick tempered and cuttings. Very artistichen, is emotional raskreposhchen, easily and freely are expressed its feelings. The mood of others feels well and it skillfully it governs. He speaks with a feeling and enthusiasm, even with the enthusiasm. It is very ironic, critical, it is sometimes caustic and haughty. In a good mood it can become the center of attention to any company. It is sufficiently practical, although to it confidence does not be sufficient in itself. The impression of business, active and sociable person is produced. It dresses sometimes uncommonly and extravagantly, and sometimes simply it is modest. The motions are irregular, are impulsive, but not flattened, but stopped up.
    The intuitive subtype may be described as possessing an unique and creative personality. It can be extravagant in its behaviours and dramatic in its presentation and both behaviours and presentation will often be unpredictable as it is dictated by an internal sense of occassion and mood.

    The intuitive subtype can be inquisitve and talkative and it is quite an emotional personality, easily wounded by its encounters. Its internal world is not a stable and calm one, but one of stresses and tension, often experiencing doubts and fluctations of moods. It seems unsettled, however this dynamic internal quality can manifest in interesting and unexpected 'solutions' to the problems which causes the Ni-subtype to experience stress.

    It can be quite quick-tempered and often cutting. It may react sharply to percieved slights. In those instances, its mood may suddenly transform from sweet and pleasant to bearing its fangs. This volatility in its reactions is consistent with a certain artistic temperament as this subtype quite freely and expressly demonstrates its feelings. It is also perceptive of the moods of other people and capable of governing and affecting their moods as well through adjusting its own behaviour.

    The Ni-subtype speaks with feeling and enthusiasm. Their voices are often well-modulated and they can vary their patterns of speech, tone and volume according to the emotions they want to convey or evoke in others. However, they do not always seek to be enthusiastic and passionate in speech, but instead adopt a haughty tone of irony most of the time. They can be both critical and caustic in the way they express themselves and often their meaning is not conveyed literally through their words but by a combination of their tone, expression and figures of speech. They prefer to communicate indirectly in casual conversation when they are not seeking to convince or inspire, enjoying both the effect of confusing other people and also creating an atmosphere of 'exclusive intimacy' with those who do understand their implicit suggestions. This often results in what seems to be derisive and mocking understone to their communications.

    When in a good mood, the Ni-subtype can easily behave in such a way as to make themselves the center of attention. They are capable and willing to hold this position wherein they entertain by performing for the people they are surrounded by. It is quite comfortable in environment where it is necessary and natural to perform, such as being on stage, or story-telling, and may for this reason enjoy structured and formal environments where performance is expected and other people accept their role as an audience to the EIE.

    This subtype is practical enough to get by in its daily tasks, but it does not attach much confidence to its abilities to so. However, it is capable of giving the impression of being an effective, professional, active and sociable person.

    The Ni-EIE often dresses in a way that is unusual and extravagant, in order to express their internal mood and to impress or catch the attention of those around them. However, this is not always the case and on many occasion the Ni-EIE will deliberately chose to dress in a modest fashion so as to convey both a sense of modesty and restraint, and also to avoid attracting attention to their appearance when they do not feel entirely ready to be 'looked upon' due to some internal motivation or mood.

    Their motions have a tendency toward being irregular and unusual. They may move impulsively as though suddenly inspired to act rather than thinking the action through. In these cases, their motions are not smooth and continuous between starting and completing the action, but in fact often 'end' in an abrupt and sudden fashion.
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    Fe-Subtype: EDUCATOR

    EDUCATOR
    Ethical subtype tries to behave according to the rules of a good tone. This is - internally emotional, but usually modest and restrained in the expression of his feelings person. It is touchy even we wound, in the soul it frequently survives dramatic emotions, but with the strangers it is held in control and does not give to them will. To it it is difficult properly to be weakened, it is internally stressed, we wound and it is sufficiently proud. It has many complexes, from which it frequently suffers, but in this case outwardly it is proud and inaccessible. It is usually reserved, careful, it thinks over everything in advance. Are somewhat acted unsure of itself, but it is patient and persistent, it knows how to attain its purposes. It is very exacting to that so that the surrounding soblyudali ethical standards of behavior, and frequently it cannot be held from the observations and the councils, if it sees that people enter, from its point of view, it is incorrect. The rapid change of mood is characteristic of it. First is cold- haughty, obstinate and demanding, then soft, sincere, courteous and even defenseless. Motions smooth, are sometimes emphasized demonstrative. It dresses modestly, also, with the taste, and if it wants, it can appear very effectively.
    Ethical subtypes aim to adapt their behaviour so that it is appropriate and moderate. Whilst it may be experiencing fluctuating internal states, their outward behaviour will be moderated so that they express their feelings in a modest and restrained way. That does not mean however that they do not experience strong emotional states, in fact, this subtype does wound easily and is easily affected by events and people around them. However the ethical subtype largely constrains these dramatic emotions to themselves and keeps their emotions under control in front of strangers. In that sense, its moods are expressed according to the people whom the ethical subtype is around, rather than being a direct reflection of their internal states. There is more focus on moderating the effect of their emotional expression rather than letting internal states dominant their emotional expression.

    It is difficult for this subtype to show vulnerability in its emotional states to other people because of a sense of pride coupled with their mastery over whatever emotional state they are projecting. Even when internally stressed and wounded, it is sufficiently proud as to not react or lash out at the source of that stress reactively and impulsively. It suffers from a number of complexes and may be internally insecure but this internal tension and anxiety is shielded from other people. In that sense, it covers up its bad moods by a proud and inaccessible 'moderation' of feeling. It keeps the display of its feelings more under control than the Intuitive subtype.

    Despite this, rapidly changing moods is nevertheless characteristic of this subtype. It can seems cold, haughty, obstinate and demanding at first, but then change into a soft, more sincere and courteous way of acting. It has great mastery over the emotions it chooses to convey to others and has much dynamic range in their emotional expressions. This allows the Fe-EIE to tailor its emotional output to maximum effect in pursuit of whatever object they wish to achieve with these states: influence, entertain, enlighten, or captivate.

    The ethical subtype is usually reserved and careful, thinking everything over in advance before acting. Sometimes it can seem uncertain of itself, however it is patient and persistent since they know what actions they need to take in order to attain their objectives.

    They can be very exacting when it comes to the appropriate standard of behaviour, such as etiquette, manners and social conventions. They always know what the appropriate form of behaviour is for any situation. When someone breaks these standards, they will often be unable to prevent themselves from commenting on that behaviour, or lecturing that person on their transgressions. At worst, they might be very critical of the transgressions they perceive. However, on the high side, they also make very good mentors in social matters and can help people learn what appropriate behaviour is. Therefore they have the capacity for smoothing out social awkwardness. There is a strong sense of appropriateness and correctness with this subtype.

    The motions of the Fe-EIE are smooth and sometimes emphasized deliberately so that they can seem to come off as being 'demonstrative' and 'performative'. It is inclined to dress modestly and with taste and if it wants to, it can be very effective in co-ordinating its appearance.

    --

    Notes on the Subtypes: It seems to be that whilst both subtypes are emotionally very expressive and more than capable of using the organs of expression (facial movements, body language and vocal intonation), the Ni-subtype is more emotionally reactive to their internal state and the Fe-subtype is more emotionally reactive to other people.

    The Fe-subtype seems to give the Fe-EIE more awareness of the external world, particularly that other people. The moderation in their baseline behaviour and the control over their diversity of expressions seems to be produced by more attention/energy diverted to . valuing also seems to be stronger, as emphasised through the awareness of situational appropriateness and acting correctly, and a certain didacticism toward standards of behaviour. Overall, the impression seems to be a more 'mature' one, in the sense of being tune with their effect on other people, less concerned with expressing their internal state but also possessing more mastery over their self-presentation through emotional expression.

    The Ni-subtype gives the Ni-EIE an internal focus that manifests in startlingly sharp changes in their behaviour. It also seems to bring a degree of sharpness and volatility to the character. They seem more defensive and unpredictable. However, the theory doesn't seem to be that the Ni-subtype moves toward being IEI like, since instead of weaker , the role becomes more pronounced as they appear to be effective and business-like. On the other hand, weakness in seems more pronounced. Correctness in all social matters seems sacrificed for expressive effect and giving vent to internal dramatic states. Overall I would say this subtype is more 'withdrawn', yet at the same time more prone to volatility. More likely to unleash then control their aggression when reacting to being 'wounded'.
    Last edited by unefille; 09-21-2008 at 07:59 AM.
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    Nice job yes the Ni-subtype does not go towards INFp but rather towards ENTj
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Thanks! I did this during a break at work today and it so happened one of the people I work with is Fe-ENFj. So I used our differences to flesh out the description.

    I always feel so mean and cold next to the Fe-subtype, though. They're like so bubbly and warm and nice, all the time, until they're sad, and then they're just sort of...cuddly.

    I might do the LIE descriptions next, to compare the Ni-subtypes of LIE and EIE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I might do the LIE descriptions next, to compare the Ni-subtypes of LIE and EIE.
    I think that just by reading the Meged-Ocvharov descriptions the picture of type progression over temperaments is noticeable!
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I always feel so mean and cold next to the Fe-subtype, though. They're like so bubbly and warm and nice, all the time, until they're sad, and then they're just sort of...cuddly.
    Same for me... and i have a question. What subtype is your LSI friend idolatrie ? Is she subtype ?
    Beta extrovert from NF club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastdance View Post
    Same for me... and i have a question. What subtype is your LSI friend idolatrie ? Is she subtype ?
    Yup. So is my dad. So I actually have trouble recognising the subtypes sometimes because I'm so accustomed to subtypes.
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    I ask because I have a shy theory about dual subtypes. You know some LSI ?
    My theory based on observation goes this way:
    Subtypes - and - go better than - and -...
    Beta extrovert from NF club.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastdance View Post
    I ask because I have a shy theory about dual subtypes. You know some LSI ?
    My theory based on observation goes this way:
    Subtypes - and - go better than - and -...
    I definitely know at least 1, if not 2, subtypes. I know about 3 subtypes, not including someone I'm hoping is subtype, lol.

    I agree with your theory too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lastdance View Post
    I ask because I have a shy theory about dual subtypes. You know some LSI ?
    My theory based on observation goes this way:
    Subtypes - and - go better than - and -...
    Don't be shy; it's generally accepted that the corrisponding subtype in the J-P axis is favored, both in irrationals and rationals.
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    Hmmm...I am torn. By these descriptions, I fall somewhere in between, but using a dichotomic approach (S vs N/T vs F in terms of relative strengths/appearance), it is pretty clear that I would be Ni subtype.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastdance View Post
    I ask because I have a shy theory about dual subtypes. You know some LSI ?
    My theory based on observation goes this way:
    Subtypes - and - go better than - and -...
    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Don't be shy; it's generally accepted that the corrisponding subtype in the J-P axis is favored, both in irrationals and rationals.
    Yeah, from the Meged and Ovcharov descriptions, if the Fe-EIE has more pronounced DS, then ostensibly, the Ti-LSI would also have more pronounced DS.

    In those circumstances, the more fulfilling relationship would be Fe-EIE with Ti-LSI. If paired with the opposing subtype, things will probably feel a little off, like either is not quite living up to their end of the bargain.

    With the P-subtypes (Ni-EIE and Se-LSI), there's too much emphasis on their dual-seeking with the J-subtypes. Since the Ni-EIE in this description seems to be more 'volatile' and 'aggressive' when provoked, they probably need someone stronger in to help them control their valued but poorly controlled use of the mobilising function. And vice-versa for Se-LSI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Hmmm...I am torn. By these descriptions, I fall somewhere in between, but using a dichotomic approach (S vs N/T vs F in terms of relative strengths/appearance), it is pretty clear that I would be Ni subtype.
    Yeah, I'm inclined to think Ni-EIE for you as well. You're a lot less...cuddly (lol) then the Fe-EIE I was writing this with (who was a guy, so at least I'm not getting the genders mixed up).

    A good test might be aggression. I seem FURIOUS (like I'm going to stab someone) when I'm angry and I kick walls and throw things.

    He seems a lot more in control of his anger - even if he throws something, it's more a 'performance' then genuine rage. Mostly, he seems 'mildly annoyed and bitchy; possibly verging on princess-like'.
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    Well I have anger problems, so this might not be the best comparison; I have pent-up anger that is often aroused by small things and is totally out of proportion. Most of the time I hold in my anger, because typically it is brought about by completely irrational and pointless things, like a customer making a petty specification on a drink or sandwich, me being clumsy and messing something up when I'm frustrated, etc. However when I am genuinely angry, and I feel justified in my anger, which is rare, it is a sight to behold...I yell and get in people's faces and make absurd threats and say hurtful things that I later regret. I hold in what you describe as the "prissy rage;" I know what it looks like from the other side, and I know that it's not genuine emotion, so I just sort of let it pass, or else I take it out by working faster or beating something up or throwing something and moving on.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    I'm not sure of my sub-type...
    ENFj Ni subtype 3w4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...t.php?p=199409

    A warning about subtype descriptions is that they may vary significantly by author. Above, a number of obserations in Victor Gulenko's Beta NF subtypes are just the opposite of Meged/Ovcharov's. If one puts any weight in Smilex's temperament rings (availible on the Articles forum), there are similarities between his EIE variations and Gulenko's, too.

    However, if one thinks of the theory behind subtyping (as discussed by FDG) I think the authors' observations can still make sense generally, if one allows for a simple correction -- the possibility that they sometimes mistake as subtype characteristics what is more so intrinsic to the type itself.
    Hmm, I haven't look at the Gulenko Subtypes in depth - what would you say the 'theory' that he's working with is? That is, what does energy/focus on either P/J function in the ego-block result in a particular behaviour?

    With Meged and Ovcharov, I agree with FDG that the EIE-Ni begins to 'look like' an LIE-Ni, but I think the resemblance is merely a surface one. I have a close LIE-Ni friend and whilst we may seem very similiar (it helps I suppose that we're the enneagram type), I'm very keenly aware of the different functional preferences. I'm not sure that I buy into the notion of 'transition' between quadras, as that would imply that there is the possibility of a subtype so pronounced that would be a XIE-Ni (in this case) and the Smilexian idea of 'type-change' across the temperaments also doesn't appeal to me. It overstates 'acting like' for 'being like', to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    the Smilexian idea of 'type-change' across the temperaments also doesn't appeal to me. It overstates 'acting like' for 'being like', to me.
    Brilliant.

    That is at least the second time you put in very concise wording something I tried to say a few times, but always in a much more complicated fashion.
    Last edited by Expat; 09-25-2008 at 02:01 PM. Reason: typo
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Brilliant.

    That is at least the second time you put in very concise wording something tried to say a few times, but always in a much more complicated fashion.


    The closest I could find to blushing!
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    it's true. I have made the point, elsewhere, also on the wiki, that the concept of "type change" mistakes changes in superficial behavior, sometimes caused by changes in personal circumstances, for a change in the depths of your being; which I see as a total lack of understanding of what a type is. But you put it very concisely.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Hmm, I haven't look at the Gulenko Subtypes in depth - what would you say the 'theory' that he's working with is? That is, what does energy/focus on either P/J function in the ego-block result in a particular behaviour?

    With Meged and Ovcharov, I agree with FDG that the EIE-Ni begins to 'look like' an LIE-Ni, but I think the resemblance is merely a surface one. I have a close LIE-Ni friend and whilst we may seem very similiar (it helps I suppose that we're the enneagram type), I'm very keenly aware of the different functional preferences. I'm not sure that I buy into the notion of 'transition' between quadras, as that would imply that there is the possibility of a subtype so pronounced that would be a XIE-Ni (in this case) and the Smilexian idea of 'type-change' across the temperaments also doesn't appeal to me. It overstates 'acting like' for 'being like', to me.
    what is inherently wrong with this possibility? If we take types as referring to relative preferences and strengths, why not consider the case where there is no preference and equal strength?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    I think several things need to be clearly distinguished from each other here. You and your Ni-LIE friend may indeed have significant differences beneath superficial similarities (hence the intertype relationship named "look-alike".) However -- why does that have bearing on whether or not other LIE can exist, who are more like yourself? (both superficially and deeply, and who remain as such -- to put the "type change" issue further aside. You can salvage a "transitional" continuum of possible subtypes without type change.)

    Consider some types averse to or unskiled at "acting" -- Fe POLR types perhaps. Nevertheless, different subtypes of both INTp and ISTp have been observed. So it stands to reason there plausibly do exist subtypes that represent different states of "being".
    Your second point suggests that maybe I was implying that 'performance' (in the Fe sense) was part of what I was attributing to 'superficial similarities' to. That wasn't my intention at all. By 'acting' I meant: focusing on a particular function that happened not to be in your ego-block, which is not 'Fe-acting'.

    On the first point, I believe you're talking about the infinite gradations of subtype. I accept the infinite gradations of subtype within a type - that is, there are Ni-EIEs more like certain Fe-EIEs than I am, that is, I have no come across a good reason not to accept this notion that subtypes form a spectrum *within a type*. My difficulty with accepting the unboundedness of gradations (allowing for an XIE for instance) is that gradation within a subtype merely describes differences of emphasis without attempting to alter the positions of IMEs within a person's psyche. Fe sitting in the base function is very different from Fe moving to the Role function and so on with my Te; it no longer a matter of emphasis, strength, skilled use etc: it serves a different purpose in that person's information metabolism. The same would have for an EIE-Fe and ESE-Fe - for the differences in gradation of 'likeness' to reflect any real approximation the PoLR and the Creative function would also approximate each other in the role they serve in your psyche.

    What I mean is, even an extreme Ni-subtype EIE may exhibit very pronounced 'Te' behaviours, but that would not change the fact that Te remains their Role function, with all the implications attached to being a Role, rather than Base, function.
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    unefille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellothere View Post
    what is inherently wrong with this possibility? If we take types as referring to relative preferences and strengths, why not consider the case where there is no preference and equal strength?
    What would the DS function of that type be: Ti or Fi? What would their ignoring function be: Fi or Ti?

    I don't think types necessarily refer as simply to relative strengths and weaknesses; I don't think that the functions are simply arrayed according to an strength to weakness - more so because 'strength' and 'weakness' are incredibly vague terms. I think the positions they occupy in the psyche to also be an important factor. It seems bizarre to imagine someone sufficiently indifferent to their DS function that it could be 'equivocated' with their ignoring function. That we've named these functions and attached specific roles to them implies that the positioning and not simply the ordinal arrangement of strength and weakness is also significant.
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    you make very good points; i don't have a strong view either way so my intent in asking is to see the reasoning behind other people's views. the thing that i struggle with is how to reconcile the lack of discrete (or qualitative) variations in people that i see in the real world with the requirement for discrete variations in Model A.

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Whenever I say that "An EIE-Ni is more like a LIE-Ni" I don't mean it absolutely, but only relatively, in the sense than an EIE-Ni is more like a LIE-Ni than an EIE-Fe is like an LIE-Ni, in the sense than an EIE-Ni and a LIE-Ni will behave more similarly than an EIE-Fe and a LIE-Ni. That's all.

    the Smilexian idea of 'type-change' across the temperaments also doesn't appeal to me. It overstates 'acting like' for 'being like', to me.
    It's a behavioral theory.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Whenever I say that "An EIE-Ni is more like a LIE-Ni" I don't mean it absolutely, but only relatively, in the sense than an EIE-Ni is more like a LIE-Ni than an EIE-Fe is like an LIE-Ni, in the sense than an EIE-Ni and a LIE-Ni will behave more similarly than an EIE-Fe and a LIE-Ni. That's all.
    But that is fairly trivial, or harmless.


    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    It's a behavioral theory.
    So? What does that mean exactly? How does it overrule, or overlap with, model A socionics?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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