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Thread: Rational v Irrational Dualities

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    unefille's Avatar
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    Default Rational v Irrational Dualities

    HYPOTHESIS:

    Rational Dual Relationship: Living for each other.

    Irrational Dual Relationship: Living with each other.

    --

    DISCUSSION:

    This is a very tentative hypothesis based on some dislocated sampling and my observations may or may not be generalisable in the form that I've produced. However, it seems to me that that rational duals tend to have a greater sense of commitment to the relationship, whilst irrational duals have a commitment to each other, but less so the institution of a 'together'. Rationals therefore are more likely to become 'fused' whilst Irrationals are more likely to maintain their individualities.

    For example, my parents are in a Rational (semi-dual) relationship. My father had to give up his studies half way through his Phd because my mother wanted a house due to very cramped housing living with my grandparents (housing in communist China - not fun). He of course wishes he had had the opportunity to complete his Phd, but he doesn't resent my mother for this, partly because of reasons related to his character (personal responsibility ftw!) but also partly because it was the relationship that demanded this, not my mother that demanded this. Interests/investment is shared rather than belonging to any one individual.

    Reading the thread on 'IEEs and the problem of other people' made me think about this as well. Change that is motivated by internal, personal desires and does not take the relationship into account can be seen as a form of betrayal by a rational partner. Since they restructure their interests so that they 'belong' to the pair, rather then the singularity, having the other partner pursue interests that belong to their 'self' rather than the pair essentially rebuffs the premise of the relationship. It's not about how rational duals 'stifle' each other, but rather how change is negotiated between the pair and interests are pooled so that the other person can also 'partake' of this interest/change/motivation.

    Thoughts? Experiences?
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    Is the above a Rational thing or a Beta thing?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Is the above a Rational thing or a Beta thing?
    I'm not sure, which is why I'm interested in other people's thoughts: I have a very small sampling of dual relationships I've witnessed. The ESE-LII couple I know certainly take each other very much into account: the ESE cut a trip short for the sake of the LII and they present very much as a 'couple'. They still function as individuals, but their goals/interests/inclinations do seem to take each other into account.

    I wasn't sure if my response to that - 'well, that's a functioning couple' - demonstrated my own biases or not, especially given the emphasis on personal freedom and 'room for change' the IEE-SLI duality seems to suggest. I admit to not having observed first hand many irrational dualities.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    I'm not sure, which is why I'm interested in other people's thoughts: I have a very small sampling of dual relationships I've witnessed. The ESE-LII couple I know certainly take each other very much into account: the ESE cut a trip short for the sake of the LII and they present very much as a 'couple'. They still function as individuals, but their goals/interests/inclinations do seem to take each other into account.

    I wasn't sure if my response to that - 'well, that's a functioning couple' - demonstrated my own biases or not, especially given the emphasis on personal freedom and 'room for change' the IEE-SLI duality seems to suggest. I admit to not having observed first hand many irrational dualities.
    OK. I can't really offer any info, but I'm good at asking questions.
    Johari/Nohari

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Is the above a Rational thing or a Beta thing?
    right, exactly.

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    As in: both the descriptions only apply the Beta quadra or that the 'Rational' description applies to the Beta quadra for both rationals and irrationals?

    It's just a hypothesis, but if it only describes Beta then I would be interested in what descriptions would apply to how dual pairs see the relationship itself across the other quadras and how that's linked to the quadra values.
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    I think I relate to the "rational" one more. The "irrational" one in the context of IEE/SLI seems like it might be more about (Delta) than irrationality. This is just an impression though.

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    I don't know. I don't really relate to either, but it could be just me.
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    from my limited sample size of 4

    LIE-ESI a lot of involvement in each other's day to day lives, present themselves as a couple in public

    ILI-SEE very hands off when it comes minor decisions, relationship status downplayed, barely visible in public

    perhaps because leading rational functions lead to a more proactive point of view towards influencing ones environment, including that of the relationship. Irrational functions might have a greater tendency to observe/adapt and only occasionally interfere as the situation calls for it
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolda Biloruka
    perhaps because leading rational functions lead to a more proactive point of view towards influencing ones environment, including that of the relationship. Irrational functions might have a greater tendency to observe/adapt and only occasionally interfere as the situation calls for it
    This seems like a decent explanation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't know. I don't really relate to either, but it could be just me.
    What's your experience of LIE-ESI duality in a close relationship (platonic or romantic) been like?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isolda Biloruka View Post
    from my limited sample size of 4

    LIE-ESI a lot of involvement in each other's day to day lives, present themselves as a couple in public

    ILI-SEE very hands off when it comes minor decisions, relationship status downplayed, barely visible in public

    perhaps because leading rational functions lead to a more proactive point of view towards influencing ones environment, including that of the relationship. Irrational functions might have a greater tendency to observe/adapt and only occasionally interfere as the situation calls for it
    That was what I thought too - my SEE friend prefers relationships where the two people are 'comfortable apart'. She even suggested that she would prefer to have separate bedrooms when she was married - not out of prudishness (though a prudish SEE would be amusing) - but because she wants to maintain her 'personal space' in every sense: emotional, physical and psychological.

    Why do irrational functions have a less 'interactive' tendency?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Isolda Biloruka View Post
    from my limited sample size of 4

    LIE-ESI a lot of involvement in each other's day to day lives, present themselves as a couple in public

    ILI-SEE very hands off when it comes minor decisions, relationship status downplayed, barely visible in public

    perhaps because leading rational functions lead to a more proactive point of view towards influencing ones environment, including that of the relationship. Irrational functions might have a greater tendency to observe/adapt and only occasionally interfere as the situation calls for it
    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post


    That was what I thought too - my SEE friend prefers relationships where the two people are 'comfortable apart'. She even suggested that she would prefer to have separate bedrooms when she was married - not out of prudishness (though a prudish SEE would be amusing) - but because she wants to maintain her 'personal space' in every sense: emotional, physical and psychological
    this all seems absolutely wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    this all seems absolutely wrong.
    Well, she definitely wants separate bedrooms; she also wants to be close to people and is very touchy and invasive with my personal space.

    What's wrong about it? I may have phrased it badly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    What's your experience of LIE-ESI duality in a close relationship (platonic or romantic) been like?
    The extent of perceived involvment (from the observer) often depends on the setting. For example, since I and my girlfriend live in different cities (not far, about 25 miles apart, but enough to need 40 mins of travel), I rarely hang out with my friends accompanied by her. Thus from their perspective we seem to be extremely "hands off". OTOH we go to the same university, and thus probably for people that see us in that place, we may appear very "hands on".

    For what's worth, I have been in extended contact with both an ILI-SEE and an SLI-IEE couple, and they don't really seem to be particularly hands-off; actually the ILI and the SEE went living togheter after only 4 months of being in the relationship, which in my opinion is very little time. I have seen ILE-SEI being togheter very often but not liking public displays of affection, for example - maybe it's the ILE Fi PoLR?

    Perhaps a more compelling reason for being hands-on and hands-off is enneagram stacking. Invariably it seems that sx-first types either prefer an hands-on approach, or they just ignore the partner completely, for example.
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